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\"ile\" and verb agreement
(11 Messages in 2 pages - View all)
[1] 2
1.       trip
297 posts
 07 May 2014 Wed 12:27 pm

Merhaba! I think I am confused about something, and I hope you can help me. In the past, I have written a sentence like "I went on vacation with my family," and I have used a singular verb to go with "I." But then I was corrected and told that I should use a plural verb. So which is correct?: "Ben ailemle tatil yaptım" or "Ben ailemle tatil yaptık." 

In a book, I see: "Ahmet´le Mehmet geldiler." Would you ever say?: "Ahmet´le Mehmet geldi."

I know that "ile" can be read as "and," rather than "with." Is that part of what is going on here?

Sorry if this is a dumb question. Teşekkürler!

2.       olphon
106 posts
 07 May 2014 Wed 12:53 pm

"Ben ailemle tatil yaptım" or "Ben ailemle tatil yaptık." 

 

First sentence is correct. Certainly, %100, a resounding NO!! to the second one. No way. Sounds like "we is on vacation."

In the second sentence, you are doing the action, regardless of who you do it with.

Time to confuse you now:

"Ailemle tatil yaptık." is correct though. Because it implies "ailemle ben tatil yaptık." Which is also correct. And that means "My family and I were on vacation." Then the subject is several people.

It´s similar in English. The difference is word order.

"My family and I were on vacation."

"I was on vacation with my family."

Apparently Turkish can be so flexible yet sometimes very strict about the word order.

 

Us Turkish people are taught Turkish sentence structure in school. You know, özne - nesne - yüklem - tümleç all that stuff. Our teacher taught us a trick: You should be able to cover the building blocks of a sentence, without changing the meaning, only "subtracting from the meaning."

This has two implications. 1st one enables you to determine whether the sentence is correct or not, that is, if there is an anlatım bozukluğu* in the sentence. 2nd one enables you to determine whether a group of words is a building block.

Unfortunately this tip was useful for us because even though we were 9, we were native speakers and we could tell when a sentence sounded funny. But I think even you could benefit from the principle.

So, let´s apply it to "ben ailemle tatil yaptık." Omit "ailemle" and you get "ben tatil yaptık." You don´t have to be a native to know this is wrong. (Example for the 1st implication)

Let´s apply it to "ben ailemle tatil yaptım." Omit "tatil" and you get "ben ailemle yaptım." Still correct. It raises a question, "what did you do?", but still correct. (Example for the 1st implication)

Let´s apply it to "ben ailemle güzel bir tatil yaptım." Omit "tatil" and you get "ben ailemle güzel bir yaptım." I don´t know about you but to my native ears, this sounds wrong. Therefore, you can determine "tatil" was a part of a building block, not a block on its own. (Example for the 2nd implication)

This is a rule of thumb, not a magic recipe. So it won´t work sometimes. But still, useful. For example:

"Ben ve ailem tatil yaptık." If you omit "ve ailem", you get "ben tatil yaptık." This is wrong but the original sentence was correct. Why? You omitted "ve ailem", and it was part of a building block, "ben ve ailem." You can only cover blocks. In this case you didn´t subtract from the meaning, you changed it. OK for this example it kind of works but I´m sure we´ll find examples if we try.

Returning back to your original question, "Ahmet´le Mehmet geldi." and "Ahmet´le Mehmet geldiler." are both correct. You can use 3rd person singular instead of 3rd person plural. Not vice versa, and not for 1st and 2nd person. Consider it an exception. 

And if I may guide you through some other possibilities:

"Mehmet Ahmet´le geldi." is correct. (singular substitution instead of plural)

"Mehmet Ahmet´le geldiler." is incorrect. You now know, don´t you?

"Ahmet´le geldiler." is also correct. (hidden subject, several people)

"Ahmet´le geldi." is also correct. (hidden subject, not a substitution because there´s no way of knowing whether there are several people or not)

__________

Anlatım bozukluğu: I don´t know the concept in English. Incorrect sentences, basically. Many forms of this. "Are you ugly and feel desperate?" is wrong whereas "Do you look ugly and feel desperate?" would be correct, because the first one boils down to "are you feel desperate?"

 

 



Edited (5/7/2014) by olphon
Edited (5/7/2014) by olphon
Edited (5/7/2014) by olphon

3.       gokuyum
5049 posts
 07 May 2014 Wed 12:54 pm

 

Quoting trip

Merhaba! I think I am confused about something, and I hope you can help me. In the past, I have written a sentence like "I went on vacation with my family," and I have used a singular verb to go with "I." But then I was corrected and told that I should use a plural verb. So which is correct?: "Ben ailemle tatil yaptım" or "Ben ailemle tatil yaptık." 

In a book, I see: "Ahmet´le Mehmet geldiler." Would you ever say?: "Ahmet´le Mehmet geldi."

I know that "ile" can be read as "and," rather than "with." Is that part of what is going on here?

Sorry if this is a dumb question. Teşekkürler!

"-le" is the suffix form of "ile". They do the same things. Simply "ile" means "and" and "with". When you use it as a conjuction (as "and") there are two subjects, but if you use it as a particle (as "with") then there is only one subject.

 

Examples:

1. Ailemle tatile gittik. Here "ile" is a conjuction and there are two subjects. One is "ailem" other is "ben(hidden)" But because of this hidden "ben", also an ambiguity appears. It is better to say like this: Ailem ile ben tatile gittik.

2. Ailemle tatile gittim. Here "ile" is a particle. And there is only one subject in the sentence. And it is "ben(hidden)" Ailem is not a subject here.

 

 

 



Edited (5/7/2014) by gokuyum
Edited (5/7/2014) by gokuyum
Edited (5/7/2014) by gokuyum
Edited (5/7/2014) by gokuyum
Edited (5/7/2014) by gokuyum
Edited (5/7/2014) by gokuyum

trip liked this message
4.       mehmet111
195 posts
 07 May 2014 Wed 04:44 pm

 

tatil yapmak (to go on vacation (to have a vacation) (directly: to do a vacation) : to spend time by having an holiday)

tatile gitmek/çıkmak (to go on vacation: to take the road somewhere so as to have a vacation)

 

Ben tatil yaptım. (I went on vacation) (directly: I did a vacation)

Ben ailemle tatil yaptım. (I went on vacation with my family.)

/Ailemle tatil yaptım.

 

Indeed, "Ailemle tatil yaptık" is understandable. But it is wrong grammatically. If you have said "Ailemle tatil yaptım", it is already understood both you and your family has gone on a vacation. By the plural conjugation, you exaggerate the pluralness meaning unnecessarily. Hence it is wrong to express it in that way.

 

"Ahmet´le Mehmet geldiler" is understandable. But, because you have added the plural suffix "-lar" even if the subject "Ahmet and Mehmet" are already meaning the pluralness, it is unnecessary.

 

http://www.turkishclass.com/turkish_lesson_308

Mehmet geldi. Mehmet came.

Mehmet Ahmet´le geldi. Mehmet came with Ahmet.

 

http://www.turkishclass.com/turkish_lesson_309

Ahmet´le Mehmet geldi. Ahmet and Mehmet came.

/Ahmet ve Mehmet geldi.

 

trip liked this message
5.       olphon
106 posts
 07 May 2014 Wed 05:19 pm

Indeed, "Ailemle tatil yaptık" is understandable. But it is wrong grammatically.

 

mehmet111 is right. I am wrong - which is a rare occasion. Did you know that I´ve never used a rubber (eraser) since I was 8?

Anyway I´m not totally wrong, it´s just that I should have chosen my words more carefully.

There´s this thing called "gizli özne" (hidden subject). If you say "ailemle tatil yaptım.", "I" is the subject and it is hidden. "My family and I" is the subject for "ailemle tatil yaptık." and yet "I" is hidden. "Ailemle tatil yaptık." is grammatically wrong, because there´s no such thing as "partially hidden subject."

But then again... How great is the song "I feel good" and how great would "I feel well" be?

Talking too correctly gives you away as a non-native too Like saying "geleceğim" instead of "gelcem." It all depends on your purpose. If your purpose is to pass an exam, then OK, listen to the Grammar Nazi. If you are trying to communicate, then listen to the awesome guy who also never needs an eraser.

trip liked this message
6.       trip
297 posts
 09 May 2014 Fri 09:11 am

A grammar lesson and entertainment at the same time. There is nothing better!

And so, the collective message here is, I believe, that I should not hide "ben" when I mean to say "my family and I." So, "Ben ailemle tatil yaptık." (Could I also say, "Ben ve ailem tatil yaptık"? In English, we would use the word order "My family and I" out of politeness -- someone besides yourself goes first. Could I say, "Ailem ve ben tatil yaptık"?)

And if I want to say "I went with my family," I should use a singular verb. "Ailemle tatil yaptım."

One more question: In the old grammar book I use, it translates "Ahmet ile Mehmet geldiler" and "Ahmetle Mehmet geldiler" as "Ahmet and (with) Mehmet came." This seems odd to me, because I would think that Mehmet is the subject and that Ahmet is the hanger-on. So I would translate it as "Mehmet came with Ahmet" or "Mehmet and Ahmet came." Am I thinking too hard about this?

Thank you to all three of you. As always, I get great grammar answers here.

Hoş çakal!

P.S. -- "But then again... How great is the song ´I feel good´ and how great would ´I feel well´ be?" Actually, in English, "I feel good" is the more correct choice.  That is because "feel" acts as a "linking verb," just like "to be." It links "I" and "good," which are in a way one and the same. In other words, "I am good." ... On the other hand, the word "well" is an adverb. So, I live well, I run well, I cook well, etc., etc. ... So, actually, James Brown is very correct when he sings: "I feel good!" Not true for every line in the song, however.

 



Edited (5/9/2014) by trip

7.       olphon
106 posts
 09 May 2014 Fri 09:54 am

"Ben ailemle tatil yaptık."

is wrong

"Ben ve ailem tatil yaptık."

is correct.

In English, we would use the word order "My family and I" out of politeness -- someone besides yourself goes first.

 

This is the first time I hear about humility subject order. Even in English. I wouldn´t say "I and my family", because the "feel" I have for English dictates me to say "... and I." Apparently there´s a reson for that. But anyway, we probably don´t have polite subject order in Turkish.

In the old grammar book I use, it translates "Ahmet ile Mehmet geldiler" and "Ahmetle Mehmet geldiler" as "Ahmet and (with) Mehmet came." This seems odd to me, because I would think that Mehmet is the subject and that Ahmet is the hanger-on. So I would translate it as "Mehmet came with Ahmet" or "Mehmet and Ahmet came." 

 

"Ahmet ile Mehmet geldiler" only means "Mehmet and Ahmet came". Not "Mehmet came with Ahmet." That would be "Mehmet Ahmet´le geldi."

Hoş çakal!

 

 

"Hoşçakal" means "goodbye" (literally "stay nice") whereas "hoş çakal" means "nice coyote." If you have to press the space bar, at least write it like "hoşça kal." And since you´re referring to three three of us, you should use "hoşçakalın."

Interesting... So, you shouldn´t feel well, but good. Well to know.  



Edited (5/9/2014) by olphon

8.       trip
297 posts
 09 May 2014 Fri 10:07 am

I made a mistake on "hoşça kal." I´m sorry. But I have been told that the "two-word" formulation is preferred, and it appears in the Turkish Class dictionary. In any case, my mistake.

Nothing I wrote was meant as a put-down. It was just a conversation. I didn´t mean to make fun of anyone. Again, I´m sorry.

Guess I don´t belong here. Your message is clear. I´ll stay out.

 

 

 



Edited (5/9/2014) by trip

9.       olphon
106 posts
 09 May 2014 Fri 08:40 pm

I´ll come to the "clear message" but first, on "hoşçakal"... When I was 12, our teacher in school taught us that if the meaning or a letter changes when you use them together, then you should write them together. "Hoşçakal" was one of the examples she gave.

Examples:

Yeditepe. It means "seven hills" but together they mean "İstanbul", the meaning changes thus written together.

Hoşçakal. It means "stay nice" but together they mean "goodbye", thus written together.

Hatmetmek. A letter changed (original: hatım etmek) thus together.

Rica etmek. No change. Written separately.

 

TDK sometimes changes some rules about correct spelling of Turkish, new rules come and go. Trust your book, especially if it is published recently. But maybe my teacher was wrong in the first place. I didn´t like her anyway.

She might have had a point though:

http://googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=%22hoscakal%22&word2=%22hosca+kal%22

 

Now the... Umm... Reassuring: Is the "clear message" mine? Seems so, as only my post stands between your previous two posts. What do you mean by "guess I don´t belong here"? Who belongs here anyway!? I hope nobody does. This forum reminds me of the prisons in the movie Midnight Express. "Put-down"? What in your post is a put-down? Pity I must have missed it. I enjoy it, please put me down. Offend me if you can. Force me to rearrange my mind! Hallelujah!

10.       yanis76
11 posts
 15 May 2014 Thu 11:34 am

Quote: Talking too correctly gives you away as a non-native too Like saying "geleceğim" instead of "gelcem."

Add quoted text here

This is good to know! maybe it is one of the reasons why its difficult for a beginner to islolate certain words when listening to speech.

I´m guessing this shortened form of words is a little like "is not" and "isn´t". 

 

I am aware of orada/orda, burada/burda... Are there any more common examples of words that are spoken in a shorted or abraded form?

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