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Nobel price to Orhan Pamuk!!!
(49 Messages in 5 pages - View all)
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1.       Aslan
1070 posts
 12 Oct 2006 Thu 02:11 pm

Congratulations, Turkey! ...you got yourself a nobel prize winner in literature this year! Orhan Pamuk "who in the quest for the melancholic soul of his native city has discovered new symbols for the clash and interlacing of cultures" was part of the motivation.

...this was the first time ever I had read anything by the nobel prize winner before winning the prize! ...I don´t know whether that says more about me...or more about the nobel prize winners...

2.       Aslan
1070 posts
 12 Oct 2006 Thu 02:22 pm

From the official website of the Nobel Prize in literature:

Basın bildirisi
12 Ekim 2006

2006 Nobel Yazın Ödülü
Orhan Pamuk

2006 Nobel Yazın Ödülü,

"Kentinin melankolik ruhunun izlerini sürerken kültürlerin birbirleriyle çatışması ve örülmesi için yeni simgeler bulan".

Orhan Pamuk'a verilmiştir.

3.       cyrano
0 posts
 12 Oct 2006 Thu 02:31 pm

Quoting Aslan:


...this was the first time ever I had read anything by the nobel prize winner before winning the prize! ...I don´t know whether that says more about me...or more about the nobel prize winners...



Hahahahahaha! Aslan-you are so comic! Hahahaha! I am pissing my pants.

Quoting Aslan:

Orhan Pamuk "who in the quest for the melancholic soul of his native city has discovered new symbols for the clash and interlacing of cultures" was part of the motivation.



Hahahaha! What a motivation!

4.       cyrano
0 posts
 12 Oct 2006 Thu 02:40 pm

Well... my humble opinion: it would have been much fairer if the price in literature had been given to Yasar Kemal. (or to me)

5.       arabianofelix
144 posts
 12 Oct 2006 Thu 03:07 pm

Read his book "Snow"

6.       Trudy
7887 posts
 12 Oct 2006 Thu 03:11 pm

Quoting arabianofelix:

Read his book "Snow"


I am trying to, for months!

7.       Rocketsfan28
0 posts
 12 Oct 2006 Thu 04:43 pm

Tebrikler Orhan Pamuk!Helal olsun ...

8.       Aslan
1070 posts
 12 Oct 2006 Thu 09:06 pm

I think this prize is important...not only for Orhan Pamuk as a writer...but to all Turkey! ...I insist...give the guy a chance...see his literal qualities and how he manage to introduce Turkey in all its complexity to the entire world!

9.       Sunny
124 posts
 12 Oct 2006 Thu 09:12 pm

Oh Aslan i think u r right...now all world talking about Turkey

in many polish bookshops today people bought "Snow" and other turkish books ...anyway in Warsaw

once again congratulations for turkish writer

10.       Aslan
1070 posts
 12 Oct 2006 Thu 09:47 pm

...at least I am happy!
...and I suppose that Orhan Pamuk is too...since he won the most prestigious literature prize there is...and further more, over 1 million euro.

...ehm...I heard he is divorced...

– Orhan Pamuk, zillionaire of my life...I wait for you in Stockholm in december!!!

...hands off, gals!!! ...he is taken!

11.       Chantal
587 posts
 12 Oct 2006 Thu 09:58 pm

I've got the book 'Istanbul - memoirs of a city', but I'm too busy with school to find some time to read it! I did read a few chapters though, and it seems an interesting book, I especially like all the pictures!

12.       Isthar
19 posts
 12 Oct 2006 Thu 10:12 pm


Who did get Nobel Prize ?? Orhan Pamuk or allegations as to the ‘Armenian Genocide’ ?? Who did it win..?? I think you forgot that Orhan Pamuk said that: "Turkey killed one million Armenians and 30.000 Kurds.." Thats why,It is so interesting that France made law about on "lies of Armenian Genodice" at same day..

The falsification of ‘Armenian Genocide’ was fabricated under the conditions of the First World War, by Britain, France and the Tsarist Russia as a tool of psychological war, with the purpose of partitioning Turkey. The instigator of these tragedies are the imperialist powers who wanted to partition Turkey and share it among them. Now, the same powers are on the job..Including Orhan Pamuk..





13.       teaschip
3870 posts
 12 Oct 2006 Thu 10:29 pm

Quoting Isthar:


Who did get Nobel Prize ?? Orhan Pamuk or allegations as to the ‘Armenian Genocide’ ?? Who did it win..?? I think you forgot that Orhan Pamuk said that: "Turkey killed one million Armenians and 30.000 Kurds.." Thats why,It is so interesting that France made law about on "lies of Armenian Genodice" at same day..

The falsification of ‘Armenian Genocide’ was fabricated under the conditions of the First World War, by Britain, France and the Tsarist Russia as a tool of psychological war, with the purpose of partitioning Turkey. The instigator of these tragedies are the imperialist powers who wanted to partition Turkey and share it among them. Now, the same powers are on the job..Including Orhan Pamuk..






Armenian Genocide didn't happen, hmmm? Maybe Orphan could also verify 9/11 for us.

14.       SuiGeneris
3922 posts
 12 Oct 2006 Thu 11:30 pm

As being the first Turk who won the Nobel Prize, Congragulations to him!

Lets skip the political issues or games aside, we should enjoy it i guess or he should enjoy lol


p.s. Aslan, you have a hard job to have him my prayers are with you

15.       Aslan
1070 posts
 13 Oct 2006 Fri 12:01 am

...thank you, Sui Generis! ...you go ahead praying...and I go ahead hunting!

...I have to take advantage from the fact that Kaplan is taken! ...less competition!!! lol

...Orhan...I am all yours! ...just handle me your bank account!

16.       teaschip
3870 posts
 13 Oct 2006 Fri 12:03 am

I don't know this Orhan guy sounds like a keeper, you may have some competition.

17.       Aslan
1070 posts
 13 Oct 2006 Fri 12:06 am

...beware...I am a lioness!

18.       erdinc
2151 posts
 13 Oct 2006 Fri 03:05 am

I thought you were joking but it is on the news:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/6044192.stm

He might have won the nobel price but he has lost my respect. You can add to this the respect of almost our whole nation as well. I'm hugely dissapointed with this person and the lies he is telling about our history just to gain more popularity on international press.

Our government has opened Ottoman archieves to researchers a few years ago and anybody seriously interested on the Armenian issue will know that Ottomans never did the things that have been claimed. On the contrary many Turks have been victoms of mass murder. Interestingly none of European researchers have been interested on archieves which include many historical documents and are a real evidence on what happened during the WW1.

I believe there is no other intellectual in the World who is disliked in his homeland as much as Orhan Pamuk. He is a shame to our country.

When I had read one of his books for the first time I was 19. It was back in early 90's. I was a junior at the university and I finished the book the same night I started. Without a sleep, the following morning I went to a bookshop to buy another one of his books. I was too excited. There were people who didn't like his style. They said he was a postmodernist but I loved reading him.

Now there is nothing in the World that can bring back a small piece of this enjoyment I once had when reading his books.

Very rare people are lucky enough to leave something behind memorable and special. There are great minds of history that we will always admire and remember decades after their death. Orhan Pamuk had a chance to be one of those rare people. Unfortunately he wasn't man enough to deal with this reality. Now he is a piece of nothingness with a nobel price. I don't thing it was worth the price for what he has lost.

19.       kai
0 posts
 13 Oct 2006 Fri 04:32 am

Quoting Trudy:

Quoting arabianofelix:

Read his book "Snow"


I am trying to, for months!



No offence Trudy hun but how long does it take you to read a book exactly? lol

20.       SuiGeneris
3922 posts
 13 Oct 2006 Fri 05:34 am

Quoting erdinc:



When I had read one of his books for the first time I was 19. It was back in early 90's. I was a junior at the university and I finished the book the same night I started. Without a sleep, the following morning I went to a bookshop to buy another one of his books. I was too excited. There were people who didn't like his style. They said he was a postmodernist but I loved read him.



Dear Erdinc,

how nice you said it, you finished one of his books in one night... as we all know that they didnt give this prize for his books only.. no surprise france has started to bark about so called genocide...

but wouldnt it be nice to see this... as a Turk won the nobel prize? living his personality and what he had done recently?

21.       erdinc
2151 posts
 13 Oct 2006 Fri 06:30 am

The critical question is whether or not he would win the price if he hadn't been lying and supporting the political campain against Turkia. We both know the answer. This incident is just another example of the double facedness of European politics on Turkia.

22.       aslan2
507 posts
 13 Oct 2006 Fri 08:00 am

Quoting erdinc:

The critical question is whether or not he would win the price if he hadn't been lying and supporting the political campain against Turkia. We both know the answer. This incident is just another example of the double facedness of European politics on Turkia.


Absolutely. He sold his soul to ... ermm... never mind. And this is what he gets in return. I didn't read any of his books and I don't think I will either.

23.       aslan2
507 posts
 13 Oct 2006 Fri 08:55 am

Quoting teaschip:

Quoting Isthar:


Who did get Nobel Prize ?? Orhan Pamuk or allegations as to the ‘Armenian Genocide’ ?? Who did it win..?? I think you forgot that Orhan Pamuk said that: "Turkey killed one million Armenians and 30.000 Kurds.." Thats why,It is so interesting that France made law about on "lies of Armenian Genodice" at same day..

The falsification of ‘Armenian Genocide’ was fabricated under the conditions of the First World War, by Britain, France and the Tsarist Russia as a tool of psychological war, with the purpose of partitioning Turkey. The instigator of these tragedies are the imperialist powers who wanted to partition Turkey and share it among them. Now, the same powers are on the job..Including Orhan Pamuk..






Armenian Genocide didn't happen, hmmm? Maybe Orphan could also verify 9/11 for us.


Genocide is not a good word. We don't like it. This issue has become a very useful tool to attack us Turks. Some Ottoman officers decided to deport Armenians and they were killed during their journey. Partly by wheather and partly by Kurdish gangs. If it was a genocide it was done by Kurds. Armenians took revenge by killing the head officer who took the deportation decision.

Do you consider the atomic bombs dropped onto Hiroshima and Nagazaki a GENOCIDE by the way? You took that decion knowing that many people would be killed as a result. We took that decision to stop the killing between Armenian and the others (mostly Kurds).

And OP now has received his reward by saying those lies. $1.4 million and boasted book sales in western countries.
What a success???

24.       Aslan
1070 posts
 13 Oct 2006 Fri 09:00 am

...you are all free to think whatever you want about the reasons for Orhan Pamuk recieving the nobel prize in literature...but to me some of you seem blinded to the importance of this prize and further more...that the swedish academy could not care less about what he said or did not say about a possible genocide during the first world war. I think you are overreacting...a possible genocide during the first world war is not what concerns the world in general today...and besides that...if you knew anything about the swedish academy you would also be aware of the lack of political correctness that follows the nobel prize in literature. Check out the authors that has won for the past 15 years...and compare it to more political correct alternatives that would have been possible...also in the light of those respected authors who died during those 15 years and in that way were inhibited to ever recieve the prize since it is only possible to be awarded being alive. There has been so much critics towards the swedish academy for that reason.

Erdinc, why can´t you seperate the literal qualities that you obviously enjoyed so much in the 90s from your disgust by his statements that you can´t agree with?

I agree with Sui Generis...this is a turk winning the nobel prize in literature and not any turk...but one who is also seeing as his mission to show the world the complexity that exists in Turkey. I am happy he won the prize and I can only see good coming from it!

25.       catwoman
8933 posts
 13 Oct 2006 Fri 09:06 am

Quoting erdinc:

Orhan Pamuk had a chance to be one of those rare people. Unfortunately he wasn't man enough to deal with this reality. Now he is a piece of nothingness with a nobel price. I don't thing it was worth the price for what he has lost.



there is too much hatred/anger and lack of objectivity in your attitude to take it seriously. somehow the rest of the world isn't so sure about the armenian genocide as turkey is. sounds weird, doesn't it? as far as I remember, pamuk said "one milion armenians and 30,000 kurds were killed and nobody dares to talk about it" - sounds very reasonable. AND what your government tells you is half lies and modified history to the advantage and glory of the turks - claiming to be as critical a thinker as you do, I don't understand how come you are so naive about this. and by the way, who are YOU to judge that another person is NOTHINGNESS??? he's not nothingness to the nobel prize committe and the rest of the world. turks are very ungrateful and self-conceited - especially that this is the first nobel prize for a turk in history if I'm not wrong... ridiculous.
anyways, you'll be furious about my post, but I'm not going to argue with you, just wanted to express my opinion.

26.       Trudy
7887 posts
 13 Oct 2006 Fri 09:35 am

I do not understand why it is so difficult to admit that (your) ancesters did horrible things, nobody is judging you (being a Turk) personally about their acts. And being Dutch I very well know what it means, my ancesters were not so nice in slavery and colonialism. However, nobody ever said to me that because of that I as a person (being Dutch) am not good. It is not my government who did that (then Holland was a republic) like it isn't the nowadays Turkish republic who did that because it was during the Ottoman time. Really, I do not understand why it is so hard to look at dark pages of your history.

Second, I wonder very very much why the literacy qualities of Pamuk - whether you like them or not - have to be judged by political statements. Do you (anyone) know the members of the Nobel Prize Committee, do you know, have evidence of them being not honest? I don't think so, the remarks made about Pamuks's political view and then 'I will never read anything of him' do not only sound jealous to my ears but also a bit less mature, as if you always have to agree with the writers idea's to read a book.

27.       robin01
0 posts
 13 Oct 2006 Fri 10:06 am

i think that certain people in this thread are trying to deny events that actually happened in turkey....unfortunately however all countries to try to deny their negative history and hit it from their countrymen..thats why it is so important to read and listen to news outside of your countries as well..and don't get me wrong no news ever tells the true story..if anyone believes that it does i'd be very worried the media are there to attract attention and their bias should always be taken into account when considering news..for example these so-called 'weapons of mass destruction' in iraq come on we all know what the war is about OIL but the English news will say otherwise..i just have my own brain to realise otherwise ..anyways this post was just so i could make a point that maybe both sides of this argument are overexaggerating just a little because when things are reported inside or outside of a country the media are always trying to portray a specific view..and thats exactly what they will try to do i just thought of another example..these continual searches of muslim's houses in Britain..with negative results i personally wonder what our government is doing right now that they want to hide so much

28.       ramayan
2633 posts
 13 Oct 2006 Fri 11:27 am

its so silly..even nobel is politic nowadays...its not fair ....ehh it was obvious....

what he has given to his country?and to turkish literature? ouh god its stupid...

29.       Aslan
1070 posts
 13 Oct 2006 Fri 11:32 am

...eh, ramayan...could you be more specific?

I am convinced that Turkey eventually will find that Orhan Pamuk and his writing actually in a positive manner contribute to building bridges between the readers of his books and your country. I already know that the books I read by him had this effect on me...

And now Turkey will have a great opportunity to show the rich culture, that Orhan Pamuk also takes part in, to the rest of the world!

30.       SuiGeneris
3922 posts
 13 Oct 2006 Fri 11:29 pm

another good thing about this prize is that;
foreign readers will see that a turkish author won it...
first of all they will buy and read all his books... and they will wonder and discover more about Turkish literature... about Yasar Kemal, Yahya Kemal Beyatlı, Halit Ziya etc...

31.       aenigma x
0 posts
 14 Oct 2006 Sat 12:10 am

Orhan Pamuk is unquestionably a popular and talented writer and it is good to see that the Nobel judges have not been swayed by political argument when awarding this prize. It is indeed a good thing for Turkey.

However...lets hope this man realises that this award is for his fictional novels and NOT for his self-awarded position as unofficial social commentator and ambassador for Turkish politics. If this award gives him more "voice" then maybe Turkey's celebrations will be short lived

32.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 14 Oct 2006 Sat 12:12 am

Quoting SuiGeneris:

another good thing about this prize is that;
foreign readers will see that a turkish author won it...
first of all they will buy and read all his books... and they will wonder and discover more about Turkish literature... about Yasar Kemal, Yahya Kemal Beyatlı, Halit Ziya etc...



I dont even feel like replying to all the previous politic posts (however I wanna give my support to Marzena..), so Ill just say I agree totally with SuiGeneris

I've read several books of Orhan Pamuk and I can honestly say that he has a brilliant brain for metaphors, paradoxes, chiasmes and many other ways to play wıth a language and make the meaning of your story longer. The stories itself are intruiging (however you type this ) and the way they are put majestical. No matter what kind of person he is, he is surely good at what he is doing!

33.       Lapinkulta
0 posts
 14 Oct 2006 Sat 12:31 am

people in EU always support turkish who has a opinion against to Turkey and Turkish people like orhan pamuk...He hasn t got a brain.if he has,he would be proud being a Turkish...

Turkish and Turkish Martyr's who were killed in the independence war of Turkey will never forgive him...He will live his life yourself with his award in solitude.

34.       aenigma x
0 posts
 14 Oct 2006 Sat 01:07 am

Quote:

QUOTE SOURCE=Lapinkulta]people in EU always support turkish who has a opinion against to Turkey and Turkish people like orhan pamuk...



Not true at all. Perhaps you didn't read my post above. I am sure I am not the only "person in the EU" who agrees with you?

35.       teaschip
3870 posts
 14 Oct 2006 Sat 01:40 am

Let me just say I am an avid reader, however I have never read any of Orhan's books. After seeing so many posts go back and forth only makes me want to go out and purchase one. Whether you admire him or not, you have supported the sell of another book for him. Thanks for a great post.

36.       erdinc
2151 posts
 14 Oct 2006 Sat 03:17 am

Here is a small Turkish text for our learners to practice. Let's see if you can spot the words "award for ethical weakness" in Turkish. It is part of an article of the Hurriyet Newspaper.

Oktay EKŞİ

http://hurarsiv.hurriyet.com.tr/goster/haber.aspx?id=5250333&yazarid=1

Quote:


Orhan Pamuk'un aldığı ödül evet çok önemlidir ama Pamuk'un bu ödülü almak için yaptığı "atraksiyon"ların unutulmadığı da bir gerçektir.
...
Orhan Pamuk'un bir romancı, bir edebiyatçı olarak değerini konunun uzmanları beyan etsinler. Sayın Pamuk'a Nobel ile birlikte ahlaki zafiyet ödülü de verilse iyi olurdu diye düşÃ¼nüyoruz.

37.       CANLI
5084 posts
 14 Oct 2006 Sat 04:55 am

İ guess i got it ?
İs it 'ahlaki zafiyet ödülü ' ?

Btw,good one

May i ask anyone who got the knowledge about that, what is the truth about that armenian thing ?pardon my ignorance

38.       CANLI
5084 posts
 14 Oct 2006 Sat 05:19 am

Quoting catwoman:


he's not nothingness to the nobel prize committe and the rest of the world.



İ don't know what is the truth about the armenian,Turk issue,but i know one thing,
The nobel prize committe is part of the world catwoman,and unfortunately,they judge same too,depending not only on his works,but also on political and religious reasons too !

İ can understand how do the Turk feel,cause we have ex experience in this matter too !

And at that time Nople prize wasn't joy to us as well !

39.       erdinc
2151 posts
 14 Oct 2006 Sat 07:36 am

Somebody asked me for information on this issue.

Here is some information In English:
http://www.kultur.gov.tr/EN/BelgeGoster.aspx?17A16AE30572D313AAF6AA849816B2EF3754CB9777885187

There are original documents from 1914 to 1920 (the time referring to fictional Armenian claims) on the following website. This is the official website of deperatment of government archieves:
http://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/kitap/

There are 88 scanned copies of original documents in pdf format. On these documents local authorities are reporting the incidents to the government.

Here is an example of scanned copy:
http://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/kitap/resim/991/1.PDF

Here is the Turkish version and English version:
http://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/kitap/belge/991/1.PDF

Quote:


Massacre of prisoners and Muslim population in the
nighborhood of Kars and Ardahan.
The number of Muslims committed to the guards of Armenians and massacred by them after being inflicted physical pains upon and struck by the butt of rifles reached 30.000; the Armenians serving in the Ottoman army were deserting and deliberately surrendering to Russians to disclose informations about the said army; Armenians from the Caucasus were first allowing to be taken prisoners by the Ottomans and afterwards evading and delivering to the Russians the intelligence they gathered.
19 R. 1333 (6. III. 1915)



We have nothing to hide on this issue.

40.       Elisa
0 posts
 14 Oct 2006 Sat 12:28 pm

For those who want to know more, here's an article from Wikipedia on the subject.

41.       Lapinkulta
0 posts
 14 Oct 2006 Sat 01:17 pm

if any kind of genocide was happened in Turkey,any other nations wouldnt exist in Turkey now...thousands armenians live in Turkey now...

Orhan pamuk is like a politician ..he didnt manage to be famous with his books but he is known by his lies about genocide..all turkish would support him if he would win these award by his success in writing books...he will live with his lies and award in solutide without Turkish people's support..

42.       aslan2
507 posts
 14 Oct 2006 Sat 01:53 pm

Quoting Elisa:

For those who want to know more, here's an article from Wikipedia on the subject.


It's a biased article. It tries to present Armenian allegations of genocide as historical facts, totally ignoring

• Turkish suffering
• Armenian terrorism (then and now, in Anatolia and in America and elsewhere)
• The role of Armenian church in cultivating and financing terrorism,
• Roles of imperialist powers of the time to ethnically cleans the Turks, using Armenian nationalists,
• Armenian rebellions,
• Armenian atrocities committed under Russian uniforms,
• Armenian atrocities committed under French uniforms,
• Courts (Malta & Istanbul) acquitting the Ottoman officials,
• Statements signed by 70 historians in 1985 contradicting Armenian allegations of genocide
• Statements signed by 300+ Turkish scholars in 2001 contradicting Armenian allegations of genocide
• Large body of Ottoman archives, as well as British & American Archives contradicting Armenian allegations of genocide (see for example, www.stjohnpress.com, "Armenia: The Great Deceit. Secrets of A 'Christian' Terrorist Nation".)

The Armenian allegations are carefully packaged into otherwise undisputed Jewish Holocaust and other undisputed genocides, and truth is deliberately misrepresented in this article.

43.       Lapinkulta
0 posts
 14 Oct 2006 Sat 02:39 pm

Im completely agree with you Aslan2...the article was published in wikipedia is prejudiced...thak you very much for your information..

44.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 14 Oct 2006 Sat 03:10 pm

Has it ever occured to any of the Turkish minds that the informaion that YOU receive ın YOUR country might be prejudice?

I for myself do not believe there has been a genocide like many European ( such as the french..) believe. I really dont think so. But I am a hundred percent sure that the information given at Turkish highschools in history lessons about this topic is faaar away from the truth.

However, what has just happened in France, is unacceptable. EVEN if it was a fact that there definately has been a genocide, it is still unbelievable that such a law can be accepted. It takes the right away for people to judge about situations for themselves and takes away their right to speak their mind (be it without harming anyone).

to cut a long story short.. I think in Europe most people look rather one-sided to the Armenian genocide. I think that what Lapinkulta says about Europe being against Turkey is very overdone, but I understand that point of view because in some aspects its true. On the other hand, I think it is about time that Turkish people also start to see that the information they generally read, is not always true. As a kid I was tought that usually the harder someone is defending himself, the more he has to hide..

I realize that in Turkey there is rather an abstract way of thinking: ıf something is not A, ıt means it is B.

But simply saying there was no genocide doesnt mean that Turkish people in the past didnt do horrible things! Saying that Turkish people did horrible things şn the past, doesnt mean Armenians didnt do horrible things! I believe there was a situation of mutual horrifying actions like they happen in (civil) wars. Probably both are to blame in the past. And if not in the past, then nowadays. For sticking so strict to the own ideas without leaving space for the other.

45.       aenigma x
0 posts
 14 Oct 2006 Sat 03:38 pm

I totally agree with Deli Kizin. I find it so hard to debate issues here because of this “brick wall” that I encounter. The motto seems to be “attack is the best form of defence”. As Deli Kizin says, countries all have a history of good and bad. To list a violent history of Armenian atrocities as evidence of Turkish “innocence” is nonsense. What does it prove?

I too, do NOT believe in the mass genocide allegations, but I do believe there has been a violent history, as with most countries. Your denial of any Turkish wrongdoing throughout history does nothing to support your argument – it has the reverse effect!

Incidentally Aslan 2, you call the Jewish holocaust “undisputed”. It may interest you to know that there is in fact a large section of people who deny the Jewish holocaust! Despite eyewitness, film and material evidence, they deny THAT ever happened too!

This “brick wall” thinking completely amazes me!

46.       Jorge
3 posts
 14 Oct 2006 Sat 05:56 pm

I'd like to give my opinion about this subject, after having read all your posts, as well as different points of view on the Turkish-Armenian stuff.

First of all, this "genocide" looks very much like the clashes between nationalists and republicans in the Spanish Civil War. If you accept the republican version, then they didn't commit any atrocity and all the murders came from the nationalist side, and viceversa for the nationalist version.

This said, it seems to me (I don't know as much about the conflict between the Ottoman Empire and Armenia as about the Spanish Civil War cause neither Turkey nor Armenia are my country) that this is exactly the same: both versions are clearly biased. The Turkish Government version isn't true nor the Armenian one: in a war, by definition of the word 'war', every side commits atrocites: it's simply too naïve to think that any Turk didn't slaughter and also that no Armenian annihilated Turk soldiers...

But don't misinterpret me, those bad acts which were commited by our ancestors don't justify in any case an affirmation nowadays such as "All Turks are cruel" or "Armenians suck". It's as if I were despised since my ancestors conquered for Spain and slaughtered in America. Nobody can blame me personally for what people who lived decades or centuries before me did. That attitude is nothing but silly and absurdly generalizing.

What is also unacceptable is any restrain to the freedom of speech: that Turkish law under which any insult to the Republic (such as suggesting the "genocide") can make you go to prison is totalitary and absurdly limiting, as the French proposal of law to go to prison for exactly the opposite reason (negating it) is. We should leave those matters for historians and politicians had better concentrate on current problems, not on remote ones.

Some Turk may post some reply at this point telling me that their Government has made archives available for historians so they can see that Turks were all good. Beforehand, I tend to think that those who were unclassified were the documents which don't give a bad image of Turkey. Secondly, even though all the archive were unclassified, normally the atrocities are not registered at all: in Spain for example many of those massacres commited between 1936 and 1939 are being discovered now, when corpses appear all together in a miserable hole... So a national archive isn't a really objective source, is it that bad to admit that your ancestors commited despisable actions? I have perfectly assumed that mine slaughtered in America, of course I'm not proud of it but I'm not ashamed of it either... It doesn't concern me actually, it's not my fault!

To end with, Orhan Pamuk is a very good writer. He supported the Armenian point of view, which you know now for me is biased exactly as the Turkish one is, so this was an arguable move by him. Anyway, want it or not, his books make Turkey increasingly popular and help your country. What it doesn't help Turkey at all is that you don't appreciate your only Nobel Prize so far and that he nearly got into prison for supporting a point of view as biased as yours. Any individual should be free to think what he/she considers is more appropriate, especially about problems which don't have a closed or mathematical solution (ethical, religious, ...). And from a literary point of view he definitely deserves this prize, as many of you have remarked in your posts. If you don't want this prize to be a political one, why don't you concentrate just on his undoubted literary skills?

47.       Lapinkulta
0 posts
 14 Oct 2006 Sat 05:58 pm

every country has a bad or good sides.but Turkey is the country that accepted jews who were under pressure of racism...turkish were killed in world war 1 during we are fighting against italian,greeks,british,french armenians...if somepeople think that we did genocide.they have to explain their attacks to innocent turkish people...armenian genocide allegations are just advertisements which presented in the world for ages.we dont need any other attack to refuse or prevent them...people who dont like turks know very well what will happen after they try to invasion to Turkey..French,accept it or not..your government are thieves,liar and miserable...try to do smtg for your society,forget turks..it is not your business...we dont look like algerian and african that you killed.you know turks very well.. and Antep's name was changed to Gaziantep after Turks kicked their ass in the south of Turkey...
remember these?

48.       Lapinkulta
0 posts
 14 Oct 2006 Sat 06:25 pm

ARMENIAN TERROR

Following the Lausanne Treaty, the 'Armenian Issue' ceased to exist. However, the Armenians of Diaspora, clinging firmly to their allegations, unleashed a series of terrorist attacks on Turkish diplomatic missions abroad as of 1970. All these attacks were masterminded by ASALA for short, the Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia. Under a mask of independence, ASALA carried out ruthless and dastardly attacks. Psychologically and logistically supported by the Hinchaks, ASALA engaged in acts of terror against Turkish diplomats, representation offices and other organizations. These armed assaults rapidly escalated in a short period of time. Armenians who had assured bases for their activities in both Europe and the East, Syria and Lebanon in particular, continued their acts of terror in collaboration with Greeks and Greek Cypriots. As a result of the world wide repercussion of these armed attacks on Turkish diplomats, Armenian terror organizations changed tactics in the 1980's and began this time to collaborate with the separatist terror organizaion PKK, and later abandoned the scene to this organization.

Having proclaimed the period between April 21 and 28, 1980 as the 'Red Week', the PKK started organizing meetings to commemorate April 24 as the so-called 'Armenian Genocide Day'. At a joint press conference held in the Lebanese City of Sidon, the two terror organizations made public a joint declaration. When this initiative aroused reaction, the PKK and ASALA decided to maintain secret ties in their illegal activities. In fact, these two organizations assumed responsibility for the bomb attacks perpetrated on November 9 of the same year on the Turkish Consulate General in Strasbourg and on November 19th on the Tukish Airlines offices in Rome. Honorary membership of the Association of Armenian Writers was conferred upon separatist terrorist leader Abdullah Ocalan for his 'contributions to the idea of a Greater Armenia'.

49.       Lapinkulta
0 posts
 14 Oct 2006 Sat 06:27 pm

ARMENIAN REBELLIONS AND MASSACRES

The first rebellion erupted in Erzurum, in 1890, followed by the Kumkapi demonstrations that same year; the Kayseri, Yozgat, Corum and Merzifon incidents of 1892 and 1893; the Sasun revolt of 1894; the Sublime Porte demonstration and the Zeytun rebellion that same year; the Van uprising and the occupation of the Ottoman Bank, followed by the Second Sasun revolt of 1903; the attempt on the life of Sultan Abdulhamid in 1905 and the Adana rebellion of 1909. As a result of Armenian atrocities, 100 Turks were killed in Zeytun in 1914, close on 3 thousand in the Van incidents of 1915 and some 20 thousand in the Mus incidents of 1914 and 1915.

The quelling of these rebellions by the Ottoman army was deliberately reflected to world public opinion as 'the massacre of Christians by Muslims', this as part of their propaganda to ensure that the Armenian issue acquired an international dimension. In fact, reports drawn up by British and Russian diplomatic representatives of the time, indicate that the objective of the Armenian revolutionaries was, 'to create turmoil and to trigger a reprisal by the Ottomans, thus securing the intervention of foreign countries to the goings on.' On the other hand, the diplomatic representatives of colonialist states, along with Christian missionaries dispersed throughout Anatolia, played a significant part in transmitting Armenian propaganda to Western public opinion, and on its adoption. By far, the greatest damage was wrought on the Turks by the massacres perpetrated by Armenians during World War I. During that period, Armenians were engaged in acts of espionage on behalf of Russians, evaded the call to take up arms as forseen by the declaration of mobilization, and those who had enrolled, committed 'high treason' by joining the ranks of the Russian army, not forgetting to take their arms with them as they fled. From the very outset of mobilization, Armenian gangs engaged in whole scale massacres against Turkish units; raided Turkish villages, inflicting heavy damage on the civilian population. For example, all the inhabitants of Van's Zeve village were killed by Armenians, with no discrimination whatsoever between women, children and the elderly.

In other words, committees such as Hinchak and Tashnak, and numerous terror organizations set up outside Anatolia by Britain and Russia, incited the Armenian people conducting a peaceful life in Anatolia to take action.


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