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400.       AEnigma III
0 posts
 18 Nov 2007 Sun 10:44 am

Quoting alameda:

Quoting AEnigma III:

Really? So how come you felt it necessary to label women here as promiscuous and having no morals? Do you know anything about these women, or even how many partners they may or may not have had? Don't you think you were just jumping on the eastern bandwagon?



AEnigma, I didn't label anyone here as immoral or promiscuous. I would call them unwise. However, I would call one night stands a dangerous and promiscuous activity. I was commenting on those who volunteered their information.

No culture condones such activity. Some are more strict about it than others. In the West there has in the last 40 years been a revolution in the sexual expectations and activity of women. I just question it.

The rise in STDs and one parent homes is not healthy and in fact is alarming, don't you think?

Eros in a Narcissistic Culture



Actually Alameda you DID label women here with those names. Please remember that they are only "unwise" by your personal religious or cultural standards.

YET AGAIN you are confusing people who choose not to marry with promiscuity. I dont believe anyone was advocating promiscuity and I agree that the rise in STDs is alarming. You should really try not to judge and assume. If you disagree with sex outside marriage, then that is your opinion, but you have no right to make disparaging comments about people who may not agree with you.

401.       christine
443 posts
 18 Nov 2007 Sun 12:16 pm

Quoting alameda:



There is no way to really determine virginity other than a medical examination. Many young ladies lives have been ruined by unreasonable demands and unreliable proofs (all virgins do not bleed). I do wish that would change, and I think it is now.

QUOTE]

A medical examination only proves that the hymen is intact, but there are other ways the hymen can be broken other than having sex e.g. excessive exercise,horse riding,incerting a tampon ect ect

402.       AEnigma III
0 posts
 18 Nov 2007 Sun 12:45 pm

Quoting alameda:

In the West there has in the last 40 years been a revolution in the sexual expectations and activity of women. I just question it.



This is simply not true – do you know your social history?

The only “revolution” that has occurred in the last 40 years is freedom of expression about sexual issues and less social pressure to conform. The old fashioned sexual values that you advocate have NEVER existed in history. They don’t exist in the west and they do not exist in Turkey. In fact the only place they do exist is in extreme Islamic states and in the chapters of Dickens and romantic fiction and a brief decade during the moralistic 1950s where a FEW more women were married as virgins.

I will talk about the UK because that is the country I most knowledgeable about, but you will find the same pattern in any country you choose. For example do you know that historians consider the most sexually promiscuous period in UK to have been the Regency Period? The Victorian Period was also an interesting one. Despite the moralistic press and pseudo-Godliness of this era, this is a period in history where pornography really took off, and the number of unmarried pregnancies soared. Queen Victoria herself had a very tolerant attitude to sex (I won’t go into detail!) and a range of her sex toys can be viewed at a well known former residence!!! Does this fit with your image of “old fashioned values”?

The ONLY difference that has occurred is that women no longer feel they have to be MARRIED in order to have sex. Prior to this, women married for status and children. It was their duty to produce children and always appear to be a perfect wife publically but then could enjoy their sexual freedom the same as their husbands. This was considered “socially acceptable” - particularly among the richer societies, as long as discretion was observed. Most men had their first sexual experience with married women. It is predicted that many children born to married parents throughout history, were of questionable parentage . This is well documented by social historians through just about every era in history.

You may be interested to learn that we now hold unfaithfulness as MORE morally wrong than at any other time in history. A great example of this is the UK’s Royal Family – who still seem to live by the “old fashioned values” you hold so dear. Princess Diana had to be a virgin before marriage. After having her first child and unable to tolerate her husband’s adultury, she at first had affairs with at least two men and finally the marriage fell apart. (Incidently has anyone ever noticed the embarassingly similar appearence of Prince Harry and James Gilbey - one of Diana's lovers? ) Prince Charles and the rest of the royal family were bemused at her reaction. After all, Charles had only been doing the same as his father, his father’s father and generations of royal men had done before!!! Married for children, then had sex with other women for pleasure – they could not understand why she could not just tolerate her husband’s infidelity and find a lover for herself. That is your OLD FASHIONED MORAL VALUES! However, with our MODERN attitudes to sexual morality, she considered it unacceptable!!

Sadly your chocolate-box view of the “past” is factually wrong

403.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 18 Nov 2007 Sun 01:12 pm

Quoting vineyards:

Congratulations on having a gay day and a gay monument. We have a feast of sacrifice which is meant to help people to become more sacrificing towards the needy. Having a whole feast for that purpose doesn't help people to become more sacrificing nor does it ease the gap among income groups.

I don't agree with you about Turkish gays being more secresive. I've noticed European/American males are afraid of touching one another. You'd often see two males walking hand in hand in Turkey although they are not gays at all.



All I was saying is that we are not in denial about the gay population in Holland, whereas in many İslamic countries, the existence of homosexuality is denied or underestimated.

I was not saying a monument does help in any way, nor did I say whether I supported or not the existence of such monuments and feasts. Like you, I highlt doubt if they work.

As for the touching in public part, this is a common cultural thing in Turkey,and I dont think it really has anything to do with homosexuality. Maybe in the US it does, afraid to be labelled as such, but not in Turkey.

404.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 18 Nov 2007 Sun 01:22 pm

I don't see the problem of sex before marriage at all, as a matter of fact. Neither for men, nor women.

All it requires is a certain maturity, responsibility and trust. A paper which says you are married, is not required for having a healthy and safe sexual relationship.


Yes, it is so nice if the one you are married to is for both sides the 'first one', but virginity should never be a criteria upon women (or men) are able to find a spouse or not.

Virginity is nothing but a label, that has come from old ages, where sex was dirty and marriage arranged or meant for reproduction and status, and now has become a burden for women who live in societies where men are thought to have more rights than women.

I do not promote or support one-night stands, but I dont see the problem of them either.

405.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 18 Nov 2007 Sun 01:30 pm

I dont mind ladies having premarital sex either....so long as they do not expect me to marry them afterwards..

406.       AEnigma III
0 posts
 18 Nov 2007 Sun 01:33 pm

Quoting AlphaF:

....so long as they do not expect me to marry them afterwards..



Don't worry, I think that's highly unlikely

I am sure your ridiculously mysogynist and sexist attitudes are an eloborate joke. Well done! I can't believe that someone with your education and background has such a village mentality...

407.       kafesteki kus
0 posts
 18 Nov 2007 Sun 01:34 pm

Quoting AlphaF:

I dont mind ladies having premarital sex either....so long as they do not expect me to marry them afterwards..


ohh,who would buy a cat in a tied bag???

408.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 18 Nov 2007 Sun 01:53 pm

whether or not any lady sees it fit to have premarital sex is her choice...and whether or not I would wish to marry one with such experience is mine, no?

Notice we are not talking about virginity here...the subject is premarital sex for ladies. There may be non-virgin ladies, elligible for marriage.

No one needs a high degree of education to figure this out..

409.       AEnigma III
0 posts
 18 Nov 2007 Sun 02:01 pm

Quoting AlphaF:

whether or not any lady sees it fit to have premarital sex is her choice...and whether or not I would wish to marry one with such experience is mine, no?

Notice we are not talking about virginity here...the subject is premarital sex for ladies. There may be non-virgin ladies, elligible for marriage.



Yes of course your personal values are your own. I can well imagine that those special cases are widows or maybe even divorced women (if you are open minded enough to accept this category into your scope).

My own personal values - if I did ever chose to marry, I would never marry a man who had such low opinions of women, or who insisted on calling them "ladies" and classified them into his own, self-styled moral groups. I would not care if he was a virgin or not, but I would definitely never trust the fidelity of a misogynist whose culture invariably includes marital infidelity...

410.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 18 Nov 2007 Sun 02:03 pm

I really believe that sexist Turkish men deserves those girls who do everything but not a normal intercourse and then claim they are virgin.
They deserve each other!!
And justice is done

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