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Should Türkiye (Turkey) be ready to join European Union (EU) ?
(118 Messages in 12 pages - View all)
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40.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 22 Jul 2010 Thu 12:59 am

 

Quoting barba_mama

No, actually. I´m saying that the UN made horrible mistakes, and the Dutch commanders made horrible mistakes. However, you make it sound like the Dutch troops happily picked up some innocent people and put them in a truck and delivered them to the enemy. That didn´t happen. I´m just telling the truth.

 

And tell me, what are my double standards regarding Jewish people?

I would not even call the Dutch crowd an army; any soldier who gives up people in his protection to the enemy should immediately be kicked out his uniform.

I personally think it is a disgrace to continue keeping them in NATO. The only thing the Dutch managed to save in Srebrenitza was their own worthless lives.

They made mistakes, eh? Such mistakes are allowed only in Peter Sellers movies. They should have stood their ground and died, protecting the unarmed civilians they turned over to the Serbian butchers.

They preferred to live the rest of their lives in disgrace !

 



Edited (7/22/2010) by AlphaF

41.       barba_mama
1629 posts
 22 Jul 2010 Thu 01:44 am

 

Quoting AlphaF

 

I would not even call the Dutch crowd an army; any soldier who gives up people in his protection to the enemy should immediately be kicked out his uniform.

I personally think it is a disgrace to continue keeping them in NATO. The only thing the Dutch managed to save in Srebrenitza was their own worthless lives.

They made mistakes, eh? Such mistakes are allowed only in Peter Sellers movies. They should have stood their ground and died, protecting the unarmed civilians they turned over to the Serbian butchers.

They preferred to live the rest of their lives in disgrace !

 

 

Wow... I guess you were there right? You would have thrown yourself in front of the bullets, saving nobody´s lives and robbing your family from their son/ daughter/ husband/ father/ etc. It´s so easy for you to talk about this, because you weren´t there. I have talked to veterans from there. You have NO idea about how it was. Your comments make me angry because you speak as if you know what the soldiers there experienced. You really don´t have a clue. It´s easy to talk like this, since you weren´t there, you weren´t put in their position, and you will never ever be in their position. You sit safely behind your computer, typing away like you are a brave soldier. Newsflash, it takes no courage to talk like this about people that you know nothing about. Have you any idea on how an army works? You follow the rules of your superior. The army is not a democracy. You don´t say "some guy asked for air support, but even though he didn´t fill in the correct forms for that support, I will just take this jet plane and go support him anyway"... You don´t say "no commander, I am going outside with my gun alone, I will not follow your orders" This is how an army works. I don´t blame the individual soldiers there. I blame the idiots generals who didn´t give the air-support that was repeatedly requested. I blame the heads of the NATO that didn´t get the seriousness of the circumstances, even after some Dutch soldiers were kidnapped. Yes, the NATO that Turkey is also a part of... where there any Turks there at the time? Nope. And it has nothing to do with the soldiers being Dutch or not. Have you written yet about the good things that Dutch soldiers have done over the years?

Do you think I blame the Turkish soldiers who bombed Kurdish targets, and also hit civilians? No, I blame the superiors who gave them that order. Do you think I blame the crazy kids that grab guns and start to fight in the mountains? No, I blame the people who recruit them. Sebrenica should never be forgotten, and it is important to see what went wrong, so that it will never happen again. What went wrong is not "Dutch"... what went wrong is not "soldiers following orders"... what went wrong is NATO and several armies being to keen on bureacracy, and totally losing grip on reality. The soldiers and their direct superiors had warned the people in the top many times that tensions were rising, and that something was going to happen. The message they got back? "Don´t mingle in it, you are there as an observer. Don´t use your gun unless you are directly targeted" (quoted from a soldier there)

42.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 22 Jul 2010 Thu 01:52 am

Barba,

Your Dutch ran so fast, they could not see anything. You can forget about their accounts of the story........They failed even as observers...Wink

43.       barba_mama
1629 posts
 22 Jul 2010 Thu 12:19 pm

First you say the Dutch army handed the people over... now you are saying they ran? Keep your story straight Alpha. If you want to insult me, please do it right. You´re ignorance of how an army works is scary. Blaming the soldiers instead of the people who gave the orders... great job!

By the way, there were around 600 Dutch people there at the time. A large proportion of that wasn´t soldiers, but medical staff. Some soldiers were taken away during patrols, leaving only 300 soldiers. Holland had 15 million people at the time. So it wasn´t "the Dutch population" that was there. And they weren´t even there as Dutch. They were there as an international peace-keeping force (which failed, yes), also in the name of Turkey, England, America, etc.. If you want to blame people who had no control over the situation, you might as well blame yourself. They were there in your name as well.

By the way... why are you bashing the Dutch army (who are doing a great job in Afghanistan now) and abusing the death of the people of Sebrenica, in a thread about Turkey entering the EU? We already went back to the real topic. With some articles stated before, most people on here already agreed that it was a fealure of both the Dutch government, the high forces in the army, and the American heads who didn´t want to provide the air-lifts. You are too eager to distract from the real topic, by abusing a massacre.

44.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 23 Jul 2010 Fri 04:14 pm

Alpha - don´t you know that a hired army is not a good army? If you fight for a cause, you´re bound to make a better soldier and you´re willing to sacrifice more than when you´re fighting because of a contract. The thing is nobody knew what the situation there had been. Troops sent to be observers, assisst stabilisation could not get involved just because they felt one side was not fair. Like Barba said - soldiers respect orders, they don´t act on their own or off symphaty. Plus, the Dutch (or any other nation there) were not personally involved in it. They came there to do a job, nobody wants to risk their life for a cause that´s not theirs. Remember that being a soldier is a job, not a calling.

 

Besides, the country that lost most there was Serbia, many Serbs died too, many slaughtered mercilessly by Bosniaks (?) - not only soldiers but women and children too. And once it was over, Serbs got robbed of their land, Kosovo, in spite of it being illegal in the eyes of international law. It´s easy to remember one side of the war and forget the other hurt too. Wars always hurt common people - these who do not call for war or declare it, but these that are thrown into it while the governments responsive are safe abroad...

 

A few of my friends were in the Balkans as soldiers on contracts. they said it was fun - constant parties with Bosniaks, lots of drinking, lamb and mutton barbeque and prostitutes. And they said some of the folks they met were mere maniacs and sadists. The war was not about lion attacking a flock of sheep, boths sides are as guilty of what happened, but nobody judges winners, right? Everybody´s bitching about Serbia, while I consider them to be deserving most compassion

45.       armegon
1872 posts
 23 Jul 2010 Fri 05:24 pm

Daydreamer, i dont understand what you are trying to defend here, despite hypcracy of Europe, many Europeans also ashamed the events in Srebrenitza and the war that has started by Cetnik racist Serbs. And the events in the Srebrenitza was an ethnic cleansing, it was in front of the eyes of Europe and UN. It was well-known that Cetniks would do a masscare in Srebrenitza at that time, that is why UN troops was there to defend civilian muslim population but they didnt move their finger when Cetnik army reached to Srebrenitza, there is more to come, they picked off the weapons of Bosnians, and they handed over Bosnians who were asking for sanctuary to Serb murderers, some requested back their weapons since they realised they would be given to Serbs, and it was refused, they even helped Serbian convoy when they were out of gas, and after all finished they celebrated masscare with Cetniks. Good paid soldiers right? They even did not give the weapons of Bosnians in order to create peace. 

Now the truth is the hypocracy of Europe, when there was a legitimate defence of Bosnians against Cetniks, UN troops was always there to stop Bosnians, but in Srebrenitza they didnt move their finger. So now you can continue to bury your head under the sand, continue to try to justify Cetnik Serbs and UN. That should be so hurting i guess...

 

Quoting Daydreamer

 

 

 

46.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 23 Jul 2010 Fri 05:35 pm

Armegon - I wasn´t trying to defend anyone, I just spoke out my opinion of these events. Racial and ethnical cleansing are horrenduous and never justified. I´m just against victimising one side of the war, even years after it´s over. I don´t think EU or UN should have intervened, apparently everybody (or at least Alpha) thinks they did no good there. But then, if they stayed out, Alpha would point out their indifference.

I don´t think there´s a working solution for wars, I don´t think EU, UN, Arab League or Martians United Front of Green Goo are capable of stopping a conflict or solving it in a way everybody is happy. People are people, nationalist and xenophobes are everywhere and money is still the ultimate desire. Money is power, human life means nothing. Sad but true.

And if you choose to believe Bosnians were a bunch of nice folks whom blood-hungry Serbs decided to wipe off the face of the earth for no reason, it´s your choice. I believe the guilt is on both sides and that both sides suffered.

slavica liked this message
47.       armegon
1872 posts
 23 Jul 2010 Fri 05:47 pm

 

Quoting Daydreamer

And if you choose to believe Bosnians were a bunch of nice folks whom blood-hungry Serbs decided to wipe off the face of the earth for no reason, it´s your choice. I believe the guilt is on both sides and that both sides suffered.

 

Its not about Bosnians being nice folk or all Serbs being murderer. I think nobody said all Serbs are murderers, just go and search the sologans of Cetniks, you will realize why they had done this and what this war was about. Here it is told what happens in Europe, how they turn their face to hummanity when the victims were muslims.

 

48.       barba_mama
1629 posts
 23 Jul 2010 Fri 08:59 pm

It had nothing to do with Muslim or not... The Dutch don´t see Serbs or Bosnians as Muslims and Christians. From the perspective of most Dutch people, they were pretty much the same... Eastern Europeans. Christians are being slaughtered on a daily basis throughout the African continent. Do you know why nobody cares? Because it´s people fighting amongst their own people. For a long time, Europe saw this as in internal problem, in 1 country. Governments don´t like to step into foreigners internal problems.

 

This is a problem throughout history. It has nothing to do with being Muslims. Problem of Hitler, he killed outside of Germany. If he would have kept it inside his borders, nobody would have stopped him. Look at Pol Pot and the Red Khmer. Millions of people died, before anybody took notice. And how many foreign troops are there in Somalia now? Why isn´t Turkey helping their "Muslim brothers" over there? They are dying by the millions as well, since the late 1980s. The war has never really ended there, but has become larger since the beginning of this century. When did people start to care about Somalia again? When their pirates started to attack foreign boats.

49.       slavica
814 posts
 23 Jul 2010 Fri 09:37 pm

 

Quoting armegon

 

 

Its not about Bosnians being nice folk or all Serbs being murderer. I think nobody said all Serbs are murderers, just go and search the sologans of Cetniks, you will realize why they had done this and what this war was about. Here it is told what happens in Europe, how they turn their face to hummanity when the victims were muslims.

 

 

 Armegon,

 

After elaborating chetniks, will you please go and search and elaborate mujahideens and ustashes. Then you will maybe realize that it was a CIVIL WAR in Bosnia, where all three sides had their extreme forces, and where all three nations - Muslims, Croats and Serbs - were killers and victims in the same time.

 

If you were a bit more interested in suffering of all sides in this horrible war, you would know that there was not only Srebrenica that happened. 

50.       armegon
1872 posts
 24 Jul 2010 Sat 01:12 am

 

Quoting barba_mama

It had nothing to do with Muslim or not... The Dutch don´t see Serbs or Bosnians as Muslims and Christians. From the perspective of most Dutch people, they were pretty much the same... 

 

Barba, if you want to know how Dutch soldiers see Bosnians at that time, just see the picture below, graffiti that written by Dutch soldiers on the wall of army barracks in Potacari, Srebrenitza, was made poster by a Bosnian artist Selja Kameric, were those ones to defend Bosnians and awarded by Dutch government later?

 

80% percent of the city was muslim Bosnians, when the UN generals bowed down the Serbian threat, they signed a treachery that Bosnians will never forget. That is such a horrible treachery; UN soldiers distributed uniform, vehicles and weapons to Serbs, and Serbs who were wearing UN uniform, intorduced themselves as UN soldiers and killed the disarmed Bosnian youngsters, children, women and men. Again on the wall of Dutch barracks, it was written UN-United nothing, clearly explains everything...

 

 

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