Great story from John - a long term resident in Fethiye - in today´s Today´s Zaman:

We first saw Murat the Rat in our valley when he drove a convertible pink Cadillac past us in a cloud of dust, aftershave and chicken feathers. We had no time to evaluate the car beyond the make and color, but we later saw it to be a mite beaten up and learned that it was about 30 years old -- I would guess approximately the same age as Murat at that time.

Video   Photo     Audio               I have forgotten how we eventually met him, but meet him we did and I actually quite liked him. It´s a funny thing in our marriage, but Die Frau usually susses out these guys very quickly and doesn´t like them. I am a bit slow on the uptake, but I usually do like them even after I have learned their ways. Tanker Ali (drove a petrol tanker) was another and Bent Bulent (don´t even ask) a third. I liked them all. I didn´t approve of their ways, but I liked them. Murat had a restaurant near the beach not so far from here and ran it with his German wife. We visited the restaurant about a dozen times in the course of one season and soon discovered that Murat had the silver and crooked tongue of a salesman. What was he selling, you may ask. Why nothing less than himself! He explained that he was very wealthy, extremely handsome and a fantastic lover. Die Frau and I looked for evidence of these assertions, but saw none. We did note, however, that tourist ladies were most impressed by his virtues, so we applied the "in the eye of the beholder" lore. It´s always the case isn´t it? Once you´ve met a person, you tend to see them around a lot. Prior to his dusty and feathery appearance, we had never seen a pink Cadillac in or near our town; now scarcely a day went by without us seeing it. Murat the Rat would be in the driving seat, his long hair blowing in the wind, a blonde bombshell or two with him in the front and sometimes a pal and his girl in the back. Of course, Murat´s marriage only lasted a year or so, but let´s leave him for now and talk about the general. Turkish Romeos are amazing aren´t they? Our valley had one who was eventually given a three-page spread in Cosmopolitan. "Beware the holiday Romeo from hell," if I remember well. The article not only described the sheer number of his seasonal romances, but offered testimony from victims of the many cases where he had managed to extract substantial sums of money from them. Here´s the thing, though: He was proud of the article and showed it to everyone. At the peak of his success, he married a poor dumb cluck from England and she, too, seemed proud of his press exposure! You will have guessed by now that that marriage, too, eventually went the way of Murat´s, but let me tell you precisely how it ended. Romeo was working on a day-trip boat and one day his wife decided to go along for the ride. She settled in amongst the tourists and found herself sitting next to a blousy looking 40-year-old from Burnley (Aren´t about half of all tourists from that grim cotton town or thereabouts?). After some standard tourist talk the conversation took a turn in this direction. Tourist: [nudge, nudge] "Ere look at ´im, isn´t he gorgeous?" Wife: [embarrassed] "Well, yes, I suppose he is." Tourist: [glowing] "I´ll tell you luv, he´s a bleedin´ stallion. What we didn´t do last night just ain´t been done before." We haven´t actually heard what happened next, so I´ll invent it. Wife: "You stupid cow, that´s my old man!" Tourist: "Ow gawd." [Wife throws tourist overboard and attacks Romeo with long, sharp fingernails. In the scuffle, his wig falls off and he loses control of the boat, which hits a rock and sinks, drowning all except the wife.] A truly happy ending, I think you´ll agree. Murat the Rat will be in his early 50s by now and we no longer see him around town, neither do we see a pink convertible Cadillac. The new generation Romeo goes for the big black 4x4s with dark windows and air-conditioning. I used to write letters to English girls from some of these guys and had a lot of fun doing so. Sometimes I would write identical letters to several adjacent girls, and would give vent to my poetic leanings in the writing thereof. Blue eyes? "When I see the blue waters of the Mediterranean, I think of your beautiful blue eyes." Brown eyes, perhaps? "When I stare into your dark brown eyes, I see the infinity of the night sky." No! Come on, that pretend retching isn´t funny; this is poetry, man! By the way, I must have written some 20 or 30 such letters, so perhaps I should apologize in case there is a recipient of one reading this confession. If you did get one and it all went southbound, then I truly apologize, but if maybe the story has a truly happy ending without any deaths by drowning or whatever, then perhaps you would let me know and, by the way, I prefer Irish to Scotch.

Hahaha, great story Marion, thanks for sharing. So some guys even make it a career to be a dudu! Wow!

I have no idea why people are so discriminatory against dudus. the reality is crappy women hook up with crappy men. That`s so simple.

Suprisingly I agree with Tami. If it wasn´t for stupid women believing that sponsorship was a manifestation of feelings, Dudus wouldn´t have a chance to exist

I think it´s a little bit more complicated then that. I don´t think these men and women deserve to be judged the same way. These are not women who "cheat and get cheated" first of all (in general). These men make cheating into a career.

I think that women are raised in such a way that they don´t learn to be completely independent and they still think they need a man to be happy, clearly that´s the case in the west. Women are treated like children in the society, they are rewarded for shallow qualities, and not rewarded, sometimes looked down on when they try to be financially successful and independent. A lot of such women cannot find a partner. Women are kept as emotional children. This is what I think explains the general trend. That does not mean that there are not cases of genuinely idiotic women.

Here´s a fantastic interview with a woman who wrote a book on this topic: The Cinderella complex: Women´s fear of independence.

 100% in agreement there!  If there were no goods (women) there would be no demand (men)!  If women drop their undies at the slightest compliment then sorry, but they only have themselves to blame!  There is a saying, I have mentioned it more than once, relating to women who go to Turkey on holiday (singles) "Leave you brain at the airport and pick up on the way back"  My opinion is that women from my country have created this phenomenon of the Dudu

 What about German and Dutch women? Don´t take all the ´credits´ for your folks!

 I did not want to make assumptions !! I suppose we have to add Russian women as well

I agree also. Recent reports suggest that good time girls visiting Mediterranean resorts are more likely to be raped by fellow Britons than locals.

 I really am not surprised!  I went to the V festival yesteday and witnessed things that would make your hair curl!  Women with things written on sicky cards, attached to themselves advertising "their services" for very nominal sums of money, all meant to be fun, but for some the wrong impression is given and how far should fun go?  They really do give us women a bad name!!!!

Libralady, how is this event that you mentioned different from Turks in Germany not speaking German and causing crime? You said that the government did not help them to integrate, therefore they cannot solely be blamed for their situation. But here, you do not acknowledge the influence of patriarchy on how women learn to see their own sexuality. How is it different? Even if you acknowledge the influence of nuture and nurture as 50/50, then you have at least 50% of the blame for this behavior on the objectification of women in the culture. Do you think that commodification of women´s bodies on a daily basis will not affect how women learn to view their own sexuality?

 For a start, I think the nature/nurture statistic you have quote is a little high and is more like 30/70% nature /nurture. (nurture being what is learned in life)

I can only talk about the UK and what I consider to be the reasons.

I am not sure who is to blame for the objectification of women in my culture, but I know you are going to say that it is all down to men!  I blame the media (magazines, TV etc) and the breakdown of the social structure.  Men run magazines therefore objectify women, but there are plenty of women editors out there to who also obejctify women and to some extents are probably worse.

What I am talking about above is how willing women are to objectify themselves.  You can make a decision

"I will wear a skirt that shows my knickers" "I won´t wear a skirt that shows my knickers"

"I will swear when I communicate" "I wont use swearing when I communicate"

"I will gladly wear a stupid t shirts that tells everyone I am willing to provide a sexual service"

"I will not wear a stupid t shirts that tells everyone I am willing to provide a sexual service"

To me this sort of thing is up to the individual to make the choice and that is up to them.  But this sort of behaviour makes women more vulnerable, it is something I find embarassing. 

I dont really know how to answer your question, but I gather you think it is ok to flash your knickers or your breast to anyone willing to watch?  I don´t think so, no more than it is acceptable for men to flash their D**ks in public.  They would be arrested for indecent exposure but I have never heard of a women being arrested for the same offence for baring her breasts in public (and I dont mean on a beach!)

As for women learning how to view their bodies, there is a choice!  And that choice as far as I am concerned it is about decency and decorum!

I agree with you. But.... even when a woman is wearing skirts just above or below the knee, a pantalon/jeans, a not tight shirt/sweater/dress, a shirt with normal neck-line etcetera, she still gets in many situations unwanted and sometimes very rude comment. What should she do? Whose ´fault´ is that?

 Well I for one would make a rude comment back!  No it is not her fault but I am talking about women who willingly show off their undies, breasts, and even more, in public! 

I didn´t mean just one (specific) woman, but the fact that men think they have ´the right´ to do so and to look at women being objects, even if they are decently dressed. Who is to blame for that? Education? Upbringing? Illiteracy? Porn industry? ....?

I do agree that many woman flaunt themselves and then wonder why there is no respect.  On the one hand I agree that no woman ever deserves to be mistreated or abused due to her appearance but on the other hand, where do you draw the line ?

It is common knowledge and a known fact that men are more visual, more aroused by the outside appearance first and foremost (I mean the natural first response).

It is a common response to shout that men should supress there emotions, control themselves, grow up etc.....    But in fairness when should a woman learn to also accept basic instinctive differences between men and women and learn that there are some natural limits.

I personally would not exhibit my underwear or act in a suggestive manner and then think to myself, why did that man pinch my behind, or make a crude comment to me.

I find it harder to defend a woman who flaunts underwear and body parts when she cries abuse!  Part of me says it should NEVER happen, another part of me says she too should have know better too.

There is a fine line.

I know I am going to get totally hammered so in my defense, I am only thinking aloud and expressing my thoughts, I do not think I am right or wrong - this is such a hard topic.

 Actually, this kind of behaviour can be a huge turn off for men. Rightly or wrongly, assumptions about a woman´s character is often made because of  the way she dresses and often men don´t find it attractive.

Of course men also dress for attention and I´m sure there are many women here who like nothing more than to appreciate the sight of a man´s well honed body . . . just look at all the attention thehandsom gets

There you go, 70% is nurture - so if you keep on banging onto women that they are sex objects, are you surprised that they end up objectifying themselves? I am really shocked that you put NO blame on the culture! You just put the entire responsibility for this mentality on the indivituals. People behave very differently from culture to culture, therefore.... the culture is to be blamed!

Who is responsible for "the culture" - this is a complex question! You can´t say one thing or another. Cultures change over time in a fluid way, you do not notice these changes in individuals, for each individual, what she/he believs seems to be "natural". 50 years ago a woman had no right in England to have a credit card on her own and if 100 years ago a woman was burnt alive for "provoking a man" (=witchcraft), many women also thought it was right! This woman hating did not magically disappear these days, it just changed its form to more subtle ways that can be manufactured and sold by capitalism. Do you think that the massive objectification, increasingly more pornographic media on a daily basis do not affect girls since very early?

Look, the fact is that at this point the culture has a certain dominant ideology and all men and women are influenced by it. So even women who work in some places, especially when they are paid to write very specific articles, of course they will write these things - it will not occur to them as somehting outrageous. It takes courage to oppose the dominant ideology that you´ve been raised with and that being all you´ve ever seen. Similarly to people who grew up in an islamic country leaving Islam!

There is this common bullshit line sold by capitalists saying that capitalism only offers ´goods´, and you are ´free to choose´ not to buy them. Sounds pretty convincing, doesn´t it?

The bottom line is that we live in a male dominant culture, men still own the majority of everything (like 80-90%!). And, male dominant ideological foundation is the foundation of our countries. That means that some beliefs are still rooted in people that are beneficial to men and harmful to women. This ideological foundation is being continuously perpetuated by our media, by pornography, by the kind of culture we live in, by the way things are set up. In a way, men are also ´victims´ of this system, as many normal men end up having misogynistic attitudes after being raised in this system. However, once they become callous enough, they learn to like it, because it´s to their easy benefit.

Ok, let´s blame men and the culture. But who raised those men? Who are 50% of that culture? Who keeps also traditions alive? All innocent women who are forced to do so? 

Trudy, so you missed the point. Of course women are also brainwashed and they must accept the dominant ideology. It´s normal. Just like women in some islamic countries raising their sons to be jihadists. Do these women also not know what they are doing???!!!

Yes, we have to educate our women to have a better world!

 Congratulations! Very neatly engineered.

btw   What do you look for in your ideal man?   

I don´t think I missed the point, maybe I missed YOUR point, that´s possible, I´m a feminist but not as tough as you. I know, I see that things are wrong but to say it´s all to blame to men? No.

catwoman, are  you serious when you write:

Just like women in islamic countries raising their sons to be jihadists.

ros, of course i was serious. did you see a smiley somewhere there?

it was an example! can you see it? i did not mean to imply anything about how many women in how many countries do this. sorry if that´s how it came across.

Trudy, where did it say that I´m blaming all men? Can you show me? These ideas are not coming out of feminism, it is normal human behavior.

no comment

 In my view your last paragraph is pointing towards men.

This was the last paragraph, I still don´t see where I am blaming men:

The bottom line is that we live in a male dominant culture, men still own the majority of everything (like 80-90%!). And, male dominant ideological foundation is the foundation of our countries. That means that some beliefs are still rooted in people that are beneficial to men and harmful to women. This ideological foundation is being continuously perpetuated by our media, by pornography, by the kind of culture we live in, by the way things are set up. In a way, men are also ´victims´ of this system, as many normal men end up having misogynistic attitudes after being raised in this system. However, once they become callous enough, they learn to like it, because it´s to their easy benefit.

I happen to think it has nothing to do with a man or a women specifically, but rather the individual.  Some women are very needy, do not like to be alone and cling to men no matter what they sacrafice even their own morals. Men have testosterone and some don´t know how to control it.  It doesn´t help that porn and the media exploit sexuality, however we are all adults and some abuse it more than others.  Women and men both can be opportunists and I have seen women take every dime a man has and vise versa.

I don´t think you can use the comparison because I believe most women have an instinct to want to protect their children at all costs, so why would these women want to enable their sons to be jihadists.  Because it´s the thing to do, outside pressure, they don´t know any better?  I don´t believe this. 

Teaschip

Some women are opportunists, some men are opportunitsts, but how they express this and how easy it is to make tehse choices depends on what options we have in the society. In a culture where how you look is the most important thing, and to be a sexually explicit/provocative woman is the peak of anybody´s dream, women try to be that and men reward them for this. And the society rewards them for this in many different ways. Remove these incentives and you will see how many men and women would actually fiind this to be so important and rewarding.

I think, catwoman was right about the male dominating society.

In the west, you may not feel it entirely because there is a relative equality, but in the east, you feel this inequality in your bones!!

Women´s freedom in the east is the freedom in a way that freedom given to them by men. Where that freedom starts and where it finishes are decision of the society which is controlled by the men. Men decide on almost everything.

I am not sure what she meant by jihadists. I am assuming that she did not mean suicide bombers. if she did not mean suicide bombers, then I can not see anything wrong with what she saying really..

There is a war and and mothers are raising her son for what she believes it is right. Same as Turkish mothers raising their sons and then feeling proud when they are gone to the army..

 I happen to think that women who are explicit/provacative are typicaly very insecure women deep down.  Women who are confident with themselves have no reason to be provocative.  I think it could stem from many things trauma as a kid, not enough attention growing up, drugs but not soley the pressures of mens/society desires.

But you are right remove the incentives and see how many women still get breast enhancements and cosmetic surgery.

I disagree with this of course. First of all, if you are raised constantly looking at pictures of women that men find attractive and that men expect you to look like, every normal person would start feeling inadequate and insecure. It is not about personal weakness. Is it surprising that girls who reach puberty become depressed? While boys become more confident?

Also, women who are trying to be provocative do this because it gives them privilages when they are. They get attention, are admired, are envied... etc. They are liked more, they get more promotions at work, they have privilages everywhere.

No, I did not mean suicide bombers and thank you for allowing me to explain, unlike some other so called pacifists here. I just meant violent men, justifying their actions by their male dominant religious ideology.

I didn´t disagree with the fact that this world is a male dominating society, even though in the west we have more equalities.  But I also don´t believe you can blame womens behaviors as a result of such a dominating world ran by men.  We are all accountable for our own actions, whether we were brought up a certain way or not.

I just wonder how many Turkish mothers are excited their sons are going off to the military?  Being proud is one thing, but raising your son to be a jihadist is a death sentence. 

Of course we are responsible for our actions. And in the west, when women objectify themselves, they do it to get a reaction, to be admired, because this culture rewards it. They do it, because in the west, everybody has the freedom to do whatever they want with themselves and this freedom of women´s sexuality has been insidiously used against women, to exploit their sexuality.

Men say "women should be free to express their sexuality", but of course "we tell them how they should do it".

We are told that we have freedom, but we really do not, because on the other hand, it is common knowledge that this type of behavior is only there for men´s excitement and the purpose is to excite men. So some people then say "didn´t you know what this leads to?". And again, women get blamed.

What do you mean?  We have that all around us, pressures to look good.  You don´t need to look at magazines to feel this pressure.  Then why do women take different paths. Some are more conservative and some are provocative.  I don´t buy that it´s soley the pressures of men.  We can´t continue to blame men for our deficiencies, whether they contribute to our pressures or not. 

They do this to get attention admired etc..exactely.  It´s because they aren´t confident in their abilities to use their god given talents.  You could say the same thing about men and promotions and opportunties.  What about short man syndrome?

Did you ever think about women seem to be more judgmental about other womens appearances more than men.  Women seem to be the worst at criticizing eachother.  So do we still blame the men?

 Well we´ll never know now, whether you were referring to terrorism or not,  will we? You had ample time to explain yourself, even Ros and I gave you an opportunity.  Jihad has more than one meaning and I think one of them may involve violence.  Your post above confirms you were in fact relating to violence when you used the term. 

My response to your original comment was reflecting my opinion that you could actually have used an example that didn´t involve a negative view of Islam, but then why should you spoil the habit you are accustomed to. 

About ´removing incentives´, I wonder if any studies have been carried out?  So what would happen to our appearance and how we view others?  Perhaps this is what life might be like:

 modified http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRlV5RuZ-R0  sorry posted the wrong link originally

Look, I did not say that I blame men, as the cause of this. Why do you keep repeating this?

Men have a privilage, and it is normal they don´t want to give it up. Especially when you create an illusion that everything is done with free will and full conscousness of alternatives and consequences. The same way that women have some responsibility for perpetuating this female subordination, men also have responsibility for this.

I have written this clearly - both men and women are brought up to learn that "this is how things are", "this is what your place is". And now, for adult men and women, it is our responsibility to question these ideas. Because we both contribute to perpetuation of them. But this is a conscious effort, a result of consciousness, awareness, knowldedge... in a daily life you do not see these things. You are meant to think that it´s all innocent and natural.

Men get away with no responsibility for this because what happens is that men are behind the scenes, they are not the main players. They just receive a product that they consume and they get away with the lame explanation that "they eat it because they are served it". Kind of like, I killed this person because I had a gun and this person was here.

 I didn´t say you blamed men, I posed a question back to you if you thought men were to blame.  In our modern day society..."this is what your place is"  "this is how things are" has diminished greatly.  Why?  Because woman have taken a stand and times have progressed.  In cultures where the man makes all of the decisions, what actions have women taken to take this stand? 

 Of course there are things out of our control, my point I was trying to make was that we all are accountable for our actions, whether we were brought up a certain way.  If we keep serving them of course their going to eat it.  But if we starve them, well then maybe things would change.  Sometimes you have to change your behaviors in order to get the result your looking for. 

I think the majority of people want to look presentable/aesthetically pleasing.  Sexual attraction does not have to be part of the scenario.  Don´t forget the "feel good factor".  If we feel good about ourselves we feel happier and it has a knock on effect for the people around us.  Where I work colleagues are always complimenting each other on aspects of their appearance and it is a 95% female workforce. 

As far as girls feeling depressed when they reach puberty and boys feeling more confident goes, I don´t believe this is entirely true or due to external factors.  Females are more prone to fluctuations in their seratonin levels for starters and this can affect the way they feel.  As for boys, I don´t agree they are more confident as adolescents, for instance problems with facial acne can affect their confidence (although I am aware this can affect girls too).

Of course external factors can negatively affect boys as much as girls in adolescence and it stays with many of them.  They have hang ups about : premature baldness; lack of height; inability to grow a beard; length of p**is; sexual performance; how to approach girls;

I don´t think any of these things makes a boy more confident. 

Of course there are those who dress to be provocative as has been discussed here but I don´t think that´s the majority, this sector simply gets more publicity because it´s more newsworthy.  And of course the way someone dresses  shouldn´t be a green light for the opposite sex to make an unwanted move.

Catwoman was right when she mentioned the complexity of the issue and I think this is one of those subjects where everyone has made valid points.

You are right that I could have and to be honest, I didn´t put much thought to it when I was writing it. I wanted to give an extreme example to make my point.

Please, do not attack me personally.

I think you are being a little dramatic CW.  My comment was a personal remark about your style, but it wasn´t an attack.  To be honest, I didn´t think it would bother you. I don´t think my remark was any worse than remarks others, including yourself, have made on the forums from time to time (if this makes me a hypocrite, then so be it). 

Dear PT, my habits are really beyond what should interest you, or what you should comment about. Yes, it is one of your many personal attacks that I am asking you to stop making. Stick to the topic of conversation, as we are asking in the forum rules.

Thank you for the public warning Ma´am. 

But actually I did stick to the topic of conversation.  It was you who chose to mention Jihad in the manner you did and you even admitted you didn´t give much thought to the remark.  I think I had every right to highlight it once you brought it into the arena .  In effect what you are saying is that anyone can make any comment they like in order to make a point and nobody should comment on it.  Sorry but I don´t think this is covered by the rules and this sort of thing happens all the time on the site and quite right too.  If people are allowed to make comments that could be construed as offensive or inflamatory in order to make a point about something else, then members have the right to comment and make a judgement.   

As a member of this site such comments ARE my business as they are everyone else´s and as such you don´t have the right to try and censor only when it suits you. 

Life´s tough at the top CW and I know it´s not easy being a Mod.  It´s must be difficult to police all the posts on all the threads to make sure everyone is following the rules.  This incident is highlighted because you are directly involved but, believe me, threads take different routes all the time because of a comment someone makes whilst addressing the original topic of conversation, some light hearted and some less so.

btw I think you´ll find that I don´t make that many personal attacks and rarely do I use words such as hypocrite, double standards etc and rarely do I complain about what is said about me personally (I don´t see the point).  That´s the first time I´ve addressed your claim and it will be the last because it´s futile to get into such discussion and it doesn´t bother me what you think or want others to think about me. What I am guilty of is jumping in and commenting if I think someone has been badly treated.  That is also probably against the rules, but often done by many here.  Having said that, I do remember giving you a piece of my mind before I left a while ago, it´s not really my style and I apologise.

Sorry to the thread´s contributors for digressing on this post.

Whoa!! hold on there !! Okay youre right, In the East, u do feel the inequality a bit more mostly due to traditions and folklore and stuff, of course theyre´ll always be that, but there are a kot of countries in the east who are progressing a lot, personally,and i wont only put Egypt in as an example theres a lso, lebanon and jordan and tunisia, i dont think taht there are any differences between men and woman form the point of equality in most jobs, and its becoming very common to see the woman as the one supporting the family and i have a lot of friends who there mothers are working and their fathers stay at home, and i think theyre progressing quite fast actually, since girls are (no offense boys, but this is from what I witness) are waay smarter than boys and are more aspiring, the whole "i wanna get married and have children" has practically faded away in most modern communities, and the media is helping and contributing to this a lot, and not only middle eastern countries i mean look at japan and china and many others. And the thing about women wanting to feel attractive i think a lot of ppl said a lot of really good points and i agree with them all, everybody has their personal reason. and about the jihad thing i dont think any mother could raise her son to die! Maybe the fatheers because they want what they think is "Honor, and Pride!" which is not true, A father may plant in his son the "defend your country whatever it takes"thing and all that stuff about nationalisim so the son becomes jihadist (i htink) anyway this is a subject that could  stretch on foreveeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeer!!!

Come on kitty!  Clearly the train has gone off the tracks.  She has no other interests and has been apparently abandoned by her "gang" of 2.  She is going after you out of desperate attempts for attention because this seems to be the only place she gets it.  Don´t feed her need. 

You are constantly attacking so quit with the I´m-so-innocent schtick.   The difference between you and the rest of us is that we are not afraid to say our words openly and don´t tried to hide behind contrived sentences.  

You only think you get away with it because you disguise your crap and try to make it smell sweet and innocent but you know we have been on your game for a LONG time. 

 "gang" ? Why are you so obsessed with gangs?  Don´t tell me . . .  you´re a Republican !  

ATTENTIONNNNNNN !!!!!    

And life is so much more interesting off the tracks

Does your employer offer an assistance program?  You could really use some counseling.  It probably goes back to that abusive relationship you were in but I am sure you can overcome it with some work. 

Hey, you´re giving me far too much credit for my words.  Everything I´ve said has been in the open and if you think you need to say what you´ve just said you obviously think everyone else on this site hasn´t got the gumption to see it . . . have more belief in your fellow members

I´m wondering if this is a personal attack on me by any chance . . . oh  woe is me!!  I´m being persecuted by the GGG . . . HELLLLLLLLLLLLLP!!

Dramatic enough ?  Perhaps I overdid the emotion just a tad . . . What d´ya think?

okay...... i think you guys can stop this (even though i loooove a good fight!!!) but really this isnt the thread and you both should be emvbaressed of yourself (heheh like my mom) for having a 14 yr old like me stop you!!! SHAME ON YOU!! now can u plz stop this???

 Yes dear   

 I marvel at your skills .  

Needless to remind you girls

´9. Avoid personal disputes and arguments. Personal correspondence postings should be kept at a minimum. Personal attacks or insults directed towards other users will not be tolerated. Basically if you don´t have anything nice to say then just don´t say it all. If somebody posts an insulting comment do not reply to it. It will only result in starting a flame-war. Instead, send a Private Message to one of the forum moderators and they will take care of it´

So please,take it out of forums!

Thanks for the reminder Canli and sorry.

PC,

İm sorry for any inconvenient wordings and personal attack has been adressed to you.

 Is that PC me?  If so, you haven´t attacked me at all.  I´m not offended, you did the right thing, in the right way.

 So Canli, when can we expect to see your apologies to everyone that peace train attacks?  And how is what I said any more of an attack than the things she says?  I only mentioned something that she herself brought up on the forums in the past?  

 İm sorry GG,i have read the thread,and i havent seen PT attacking you personally

That is a personal attack to me,and not acceptable too

Beside,even if she attacked anyone,that doesnt make an excuse to attack her back

Read rule 9.,i have posted it here in above post.

So again,if both of you have anything personal,take it off the forums please

Canli, PT was attacking me in other threads as well. How come you haven´t responded to that and warned her as well?

İ dont remember which threads are you refering to cat,never the less,is that an excuse to attack her personally in another thread ?!

 Oh come now Canli, your vision is selective and short-sighted.  Just because I don´t cry when I have been attacked by train and alameda (which I did NOT say was the case in this instance)doesn´t mean it doesn´t happen.  And yet you have never once apologized to me for it.  Why is that? 

You really don´t see too much it seems.

 hmmmmmm, and what brought alameda here now ?!

 Well,GG,i dont remember that there was a fight between you and alameda,or PT or anyone come to think about it accured since i became mod and it kept on going without any other Mod had a saying about it,and i just kept watching !

Then again what are you saying here ?

That you have the right to attack her personally/ or alameda as you just brought it up because they have done this to you before ?!

 Well,thank you,now we became a little bit judgemental arent we ?

First,cat is a big girl,and she can take care of herself.

Second,she is admin and i believe she handle things very well,even if PT kept attacking her and as you say i dont see much,that would be because she managed to keep things calm in forum despite that

So,i should run and stick by her side and spoil her work ?

Canli was directing this at me and others and I took note and apologised to her.  I apologised to her and also to others reading or participating in the thread, for my part in this confrontation.  "girls" is plural and Canli did the right thing, she didn´t accuse anyone in particular, so, people, please don´t make matters worse by attacking Canli. 

GG - if you care to read your posts back you might see how silly you are making yourself look.  Canli is one of the most respected members on this site as far as I´m aware and doesn´t deserve what you have hurled at her.

For goodness sake get a grip girl, as CW has often intimated , just because one person or section of society does something not nice, doesn´t excuse others.  So we´re guilty . . . accept it and stop screaming like a banshee, it doesn´t look good (and it also puts me in your shade )

Wow Canli . . . your a MOD!!!  I hadn´t realised.  CONGRATULATIONS!!  

    just pretend it says Happy Mod´s Day

PT (or PC)

You are sucking up with a mod in this post while you are hitting below the waist in your previous  post.

Clever but obvious!!

 No need for the sarcasm - out of the mouths of babes.......

 Actually Handsom I posted the flowers etc because I had already taken note of Canli´s post about Rule 9,  and apologised to her (as a fellow member) not knowing she was a Mod.  I didn´t want members thinking I was "sucking up" to Canli earlier. 

So I´m not as clever as you try to make me out my dear.  You really do have a high (or should that be low?) opinion of me.  I always thought my posts were obvious, why beat about the bush when there is a direct approach?

Hitting below the waist?  Just be careful when you step in and which way you´re facing or you may get caught in crossfire

PT, you did not apologize to the people you offended, maybe that would be a good idea, what do you think?

Also, stop fighting about every single thing. You know how that ends from the many accounts of yours that you got deleted. Try to respect a wider range of people here.

Canli, tell me...how is peace train calling me a screaming banshee not a personal attack or any less offensive than what I said?  Shall I expect a public apology from you now for the offensive words directed at me? 

What good is peace trains "apology" when the behavior continues in the very next post. 

Coming from you this statement is laughable.  Cat is also a respected member of this site and that has never stopped you from hurling things at her does it? 

I am well aware that canli is a respected member.  She has my respect too.  But being respected doesn´t mean that that person can´t be wrong. 

 Come on GG,its coming and going between you and PT

İ´ve posted the 9 rule and asked you both to take it off forum so i wont get myself into such...stuff

But,this GG,is plain personal attack

And if you wish,we can continue talking about it via pm´s,and take it off forum.

Nothing personal,and you  know that too,yes?

 I have made myself clear as far as apologies go.  I have made a number of apologies this evening, publicly and via pm and that´s as far as I think is necessary.   

I think the word "fighting" is a little strong and I don´t pick on every single thing.  Read all my posts. 

It´s no secret, I deleted myself 3 times . . . this is not "many" but "a few" and one of those accounts was only ever used for posts about art, so that makes twice I threw my toys out of the pram and the first time I had to make several requests.  There are several people who have had more than one account or become disgruntled and become silent for a while, on several occasions.  This is their right and doesn´t cause harm to anyone.  I don´t think I´ve ever made any comments to people about the way they stop visiting the site from time to time, it´s not my business and doesn´t serve any purpose to remark about it. 

As for respect.  I do respect a very wide range of people here and I don´t get into heated discussions with the wide range of people some members  do.  for instance, I´m not in the habit of mocking new members or making sarcastic or cynical remarks about relationships some members have with Turkish men as I happen to think it´s unkind. 

I think there has already been an exhaustive discussion on another thread, about "respect" so forgive me if I don´t enter another.

If you´re asking me to bite my tongue everytime I read something I don´t agree with, well I already do that a lot so I´m not prepared to say I´m never going to defend someone or say I don´t agree with something from time to time (it´s not as often as you make out).  This is every member´s right and part of the make up of a thread.

If you´re asking me to control the manner of some of my comments, I can trade goodwill there.

And so is calling someone a screaming banshee Canli.  You still haven´t answered how her comments are no more attacks than mine.  Earlier you said that i was being judgemental....well....this is plainly judgemental on your part. 

You say you won´t get yourself into "such stuff"?  Well you already put yourself smack dab in the middle!  But when I ask why you won´t take the other person to task you have no answer.  Clearly it is personal.  How disappointing. 

Now i will make everyone angry !! so you see in an irrelevant Dudu thread all the problems are caused of girls

As usual a discussion about something has been taken over by PT who posts one sensible post and then goes on about HER insulting people around and then whining about people attacking her. This only confirms my earlier suspicions of her being a TROLL. And to deal with a troll there´s just one way - ignore.

About Canli apologising PT and not noticing PT´s insults - have a look at PT´s sarcastic question to Cat about what type of men she prefers or at her calling GG names. Now that´s all sorted let me come back to the discussion NOT about PT.

I don´t believe men are to blame for the Dudu phenomenon. Some women are emotionally insecure and thus cling to any sign of affection like old dogs. Here it is more of media influence that woos women with images of idyllic love, faithful lovers etc. In reality there´s no such thing but a lot of women are unwilling to accept that. So, against all signs they go on believing that Dudu´s requests for mobiles, laptops and/or loan money is ok. It´s business - Dudus provide the service they get paid for. When they think a woman paid her price they dissolve the contract. Sorry, I may sound harsh here, but if you´ve ever been conned by a Dudu it´s entirely your fault. I can understand a thirteen-year-old believing a Dudu but a mature woman? Never.

As for whether women race to looking sexy and well because of men, I think it´s only part of the story. We are animals and animals have mating instincts - both men and women do their best to encourage a partner and in that we are no different from peacocks struting around hens (ahm what do you call a female peacock? ).

When it comes to mother raising jihadists, I wish I could agree that no mother would like to see her son dead. Alas, especially in nationalistic or very religious societies, it is common to put your country or religion before the love of an individual. I bet there are mothers feeding their children with hate that they describe as love. For such mothers it is an honour to lose a child as they believe it´s for a "better cause"

Sorry for this lengthy post but I spent a few days not feeling like replying and it kind of culmulated.

i don´t see the point of discussing something like this. In this kind of situation, both sides are to blame. All we do here is drawing arguments and discussions from generalizations of what we know from "dudu´s" and these "women".

You can´t force others to agree who is saying the right thing or who is saying the wrong thing here. for me, these turkish guys and these women are both to be blamed and pitied at the same time.

There is no black and white to this situation. nobody is more right than the other. we don´t have the slightest idea whether their actions are causes or effects, that leads them to do what they do, or be who they are. Nevertheless, it happens.

For me, whatever happens to these people, they are responsible for their own actions, and they can´t blame anybody else but themselves. whether it´s a turkish guy who makes dating foreign women his "career", or a woman who gives in to these sort of guys easily. it´s not my business, or anyone´s business to judge who is right or wrong among them. for me, all i can do is sympathize.

 This has already been discussed, but of course with time differences, I understand you will want to give your opinion.  That´s fine by me.  Of course I´m responding, but not to keep the pot boiling . . . you´ve commented and I feel a response is in order.  Apologies for any duplication of points.

I don´t think I have been"whining" about being attacked myself but I do "whine" about the treatment of other members.  I jump in, much the same as quite a few members (I´ve already detailed this point in another post).   Actually it was Canli who mentioned an attack on me and if you think I pm´ed her to ask her to do that, think again.  I´m sure you realise, the shark circling post was intended to poke fun at those who complain about being "attacked". 

I told GG she was "screaming like a banshee", I didn´t say she WAS a banshee.  I thought the phrase perfectly captured the mood of GG´s posts, call it a more descriptive alternative to "whining".  To be honest, if someone said I had screamed like a banshee I would have thought it funny, as I do many comments to me. 

My question to Cat was intended in the way it was written, I was interested, given the topic and her comments, in what she looked for in a man.  Yes, I said it in a "humorous" way, but we´ve already established a long time ago that my "humour" does not always travel well and I was curious to know.

Of course I´m not perfect and I mix it like several others here do.  If admitting it makes me "seem"  worse than everyone else, then I can´t do anything about that. 

You have your views and you´re entitled to them, as I frequently state.

So I´m a Troll, is that supposed to bother me? No it doesn´t.

Ignore me?  A classic piece of good advice   They say it takes more than one egg to make a good omelette . . . not the perfect analogy I know but I´m sure you understand.

I think everyone has vented their thoughts on the matter documented by now, although I could of course be mistaken.

-------------------------------------

Dear Suis

No bullets from me . . . guilty as charged. 

As everyone seems to enjoy going round in circles so much I thought it might be nice to take this topic back to the beginning and start all over again!   

Quoting MarioninTurkey

Great story from John - a long term resident in Fethiye - in today´s Today´s Zaman:

 

We first saw Murat the Rat in our valley when he drove a convertible pink Cadillac past us in a cloud of dust, aftershave and chicken feathers. We had no time to evaluate the car beyond the make and color, but we later saw it to be a mite beaten up and learned that it was about 30 years old -- I would guess approximately the same age as Murat at that time.

Video   Photo     Audio               I have forgotten how we eventually met him, but meet him we did and I actually quite liked him. It´s a funny thing in our marriage, but Die Frau usually susses out these guys very quickly and doesn´t like them. I am a bit slow on the uptake, but I usually do like them even after I have learned their ways. Tanker Ali (drove a petrol tanker) was another and Bent Bulent (don´t even ask) a third. I liked them all. I didn´t approve of their ways, but I liked them. Murat had a restaurant near the beach not so far from here and ran it with his German wife. We visited the restaurant about a dozen times in the course of one season and soon discovered that Murat had the silver and crooked tongue of a salesman. What was he selling, you may ask. Why nothing less than himself! He explained that he was very wealthy, extremely handsome and a fantastic lover. Die Frau and I looked for evidence of these assertions, but saw none. We did note, however, that tourist ladies were most impressed by his virtues, so we applied the "in the eye of the beholder" lore. It´s always the case isn´t it? Once you´ve met a person, you tend to see them around a lot. Prior to his dusty and feathery appearance, we had never seen a pink Cadillac in or near our town; now scarcely a day went by without us seeing it. Murat the Rat would be in the driving seat, his long hair blowing in the wind, a blonde bombshell or two with him in the front and sometimes a pal and his girl in the back. Of course, Murat´s marriage only lasted a year or so, but let´s leave him for now and talk about the general. Turkish Romeos are amazing aren´t they? Our valley had one who was eventually given a three-page spread in Cosmopolitan. "Beware the holiday Romeo from hell," if I remember well. The article not only described the sheer number of his seasonal romances, but offered testimony from victims of the many cases where he had managed to extract substantial sums of money from them. Here´s the thing, though: He was proud of the article and showed it to everyone. At the peak of his success, he married a poor dumb cluck from England and she, too, seemed proud of his press exposure! You will have guessed by now that that marriage, too, eventually went the way of Murat´s, but let me tell you precisely how it ended. Romeo was working on a day-trip boat and one day his wife decided to go along for the ride. She settled in amongst the tourists and found herself sitting next to a blousy looking 40-year-old from Burnley (Aren´t about half of all tourists from that grim cotton town or thereabouts?). After some standard tourist talk the conversation took a turn in this direction. Tourist: [nudge, nudge] "Ere look at ´im, isn´t he gorgeous?" Wife: [embarrassed] "Well, yes, I suppose he is." Tourist: [glowing] "I´ll tell you luv, he´s a bleedin´ stallion. What we didn´t do last night just ain´t been done before." We haven´t actually heard what happened next, so I´ll invent it. Wife: "You stupid cow, that´s my old man!" Tourist: "Ow gawd." [Wife throws tourist overboard and attacks Romeo with long, sharp fingernails. In the scuffle, his wig falls off and he loses control of the boat, which hits a rock and sinks, drowning all except the wife.] A truly happy ending, I think you´ll agree. Murat the Rat will be in his early 50s by now and we no longer see him around town, neither do we see a pink convertible Cadillac. The new generation Romeo goes for the big black 4x4s with dark windows and air-conditioning. I used to write letters to English girls from some of these guys and had a lot of fun doing so. Sometimes I would write identical letters to several adjacent girls, and would give vent to my poetic leanings in the writing thereof. Blue eyes? "When I see the blue waters of the Mediterranean, I think of your beautiful blue eyes." Brown eyes, perhaps? "When I stare into your dark brown eyes, I see the infinity of the night sky." No! Come on, that pretend retching isn´t funny; this is poetry, man! By the way, I must have written some 20 or 30 such letters, so perhaps I should apologize in case there is a recipient of one reading this confession. If you did get one and it all went southbound, then I truly apologize, but if maybe the story has a truly happy ending without any deaths by drowning or whatever, then perhaps you would let me know and, by the way, I prefer Irish to Scotch.

Well... that´s my thoughts exactly too. And according to this definition of a troll, it also fits.

(now let´s wait for a two page, no content reply to this post... )

I have just learned what a troll is and it seems we have a few here on TLC.

i don´t see what this back and forth insults have anything to do with the topic posted.... ...

 You keep asking me this question gg and i also keep answering you again and again !

Ok,here we are again,

As i said,i wont get myself into such stuff,and i wont !

She said you are screaming like banshee,you said she disguise her crap ,she said....in other thread,you said ....in other thread

And i supposed to sit in between and discuss those matters ? saying,no you shouldnt say this...ohhh and no,it shouldnt been said that way ...?!!!

At this point when things take longer than they should be,and i said i wont put myself in the middle of them,so asking all parts to take their personal issues away from the forum without pointing out to each incident is the best and right thing to do,not to mention its in the forum rules.

Because in that point,all are equally same kind of comments/attacking/fights...whatever you may call them

But talking about abusive relationship is actually off the limit,and cant be allowed for further discussions

Not from her part nor from your part

My personal relationship with PT is same as my personal relationship with you,so if there is something personal here,there will also be something personal there,which there is not as i believe,or is there ?

 So i think no need for you to make such implement !

İ think this matter took more than it deserve,if you want to take this any further,gladly will do in pm´s not at forum .

Forum rules

+100000000

But you already did Canli, when you decided to chime in.   Sometimes it´s better to let people work out their own problems.

Anyhow, I forgot what I even posted yesterday after getting off track. I would like to mention to Marion that I enjoyed her story and it did bring up good discussions.

 To some point,yes i agree

But to some other points,if we did this...things will be off the acceptable track,because also they wont stop .

Each part will try to have the last word up to the extreme!

here we are again

Quoting MarioninTurkey

Great story from John - a long term resident in Fethiye - in today´s Today´s Zaman:

 

We first saw Murat the Rat in our valley when he drove a convertible pink Cadillac past us in a cloud of dust, aftershave and chicken feathers. We had no time to evaluate the car beyond the make and color, but we later saw it to be a mite beaten up and learned that it was about 30 years old -- I would guess approximately the same age as Murat at that time.

Video   Photo     Audio               I have forgotten how we eventually met him, but meet him we did and I actually quite liked him. It´s a funny thing in our marriage, but Die Frau usually susses out these guys very quickly and doesn´t like them. I am a bit slow on the uptake, but I usually do like them even after I have learned their ways. Tanker Ali (drove a petrol tanker) was another and Bent Bulent (don´t even ask) a third. I liked them all. I didn´t approve of their ways, but I liked them. Murat had a restaurant near the beach not so far from here and ran it with his German wife. We visited the restaurant about a dozen times in the course of one season and soon discovered that Murat had the silver and crooked tongue of a salesman. What was he selling, you may ask. Why nothing less than himself! He explained that he was very wealthy, extremely handsome and a fantastic lover. Die Frau and I looked for evidence of these assertions, but saw none. We did note, however, that tourist ladies were most impressed by his virtues, so we applied the "in the eye of the beholder" lore. It´s always the case isn´t it? Once you´ve met a person, you tend to see them around a lot. Prior to his dusty and feathery appearance, we had never seen a pink Cadillac in or near our town; now scarcely a day went by without us seeing it. Murat the Rat would be in the driving seat, his long hair blowing in the wind, a blonde bombshell or two with him in the front and sometimes a pal and his girl in the back. Of course, Murat´s marriage only lasted a year or so, but let´s leave him for now and talk about the general. Turkish Romeos are amazing aren´t they? Our valley had one who was eventually given a three-page spread in Cosmopolitan. "Beware the holiday Romeo from hell," if I remember well. The article not only described the sheer number of his seasonal romances, but offered testimony from victims of the many cases where he had managed to extract substantial sums of money from them. Here´s the thing, though: He was proud of the article and showed it to everyone. At the peak of his success, he married a poor dumb cluck from England and she, too, seemed proud of his press exposure! You will have guessed by now that that marriage, too, eventually went the way of Murat´s, but let me tell you precisely how it ended. Romeo was working on a day-trip boat and one day his wife decided to go along for the ride. She settled in amongst the tourists and found herself sitting next to a blousy looking 40-year-old from Burnley (Aren´t about half of all tourists from that grim cotton town or thereabouts?). After some standard tourist talk the conversation took a turn in this direction. Tourist: [nudge, nudge] "Ere look at ´im, isn´t he gorgeous?" Wife: [embarrassed] "Well, yes, I suppose he is." Tourist: [glowing] "I´ll tell you luv, he´s a bleedin´ stallion. What we didn´t do last night just ain´t been done before." We haven´t actually heard what happened next, so I´ll invent it. Wife: "You stupid cow, that´s my old man!" Tourist: "Ow gawd." [Wife throws tourist overboard and attacks Romeo with long, sharp fingernails. In the scuffle, his wig falls off and he loses control of the boat, which hits a rock and sinks, drowning all except the wife.] A truly happy ending, I think you´ll agree. Murat the Rat will be in his early 50s by now and we no longer see him around town, neither do we see a pink convertible Cadillac. The new generation Romeo goes for the big black 4x4s with dark windows and air-conditioning. I used to write letters to English girls from some of these guys and had a lot of fun doing so. Sometimes I would write identical letters to several adjacent girls, and would give vent to my poetic leanings in the writing thereof. Blue eyes? "When I see the blue waters of the Mediterranean, I think of your beautiful blue eyes." Brown eyes, perhaps? "When I stare into your dark brown eyes, I see the infinity of the night sky." No! Come on, that pretend retching isn´t funny; this is poetry, man! By the way, I must have written some 20 or 30 such letters, so perhaps I should apologize in case there is a recipient of one reading this confession. If you did get one and it all went southbound, then I truly apologize, but if maybe the story has a truly happy ending without any deaths by drowning or whatever, then perhaps you would let me know and, by the way, I prefer Irish to Scotch.

 And who have I offended??

 And who said you have offended anyone ?!

İ was quoting your quote that it would be nice to be back to the topic and open new pages .

İ guess i should add a smiley then to make myself clear !

To the fighting team: try focusing on something else. So boring.

Ros, the topic is closed, what are you still talking about?!

 Sorry I dont have time to write a lengthy prose in repsonse to you, but I did mention culture and I agree it does change over time, therefore peoples behaviour changes.  But I stand by the fact that people can make their own decisions about their behaviour, whether it be a woman who dresses and acts inappropriately or whether it be a man thinking he can behave a certain way because a women has acted or dressed in the certain way.

There are many facets to culture and the way it develops over time and people are repsonsible for those changes, man or woman. 

I see this initial post has caused quite a response and being a busy lady, I once again missed have trouble in catching up.

You already know Catwoman, that I do not blame men for all ills in the world, not having strong feminist views. 

 Ok - my mistake

Having strong feminist views, I also don´t blame men for all ills in the world. I tried to explain that... but maybe I was not clear enough.