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Women cannot marry men they want
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210.       alameda
3499 posts
 09 Oct 2010 Sat 08:06 am

 I wish I knew, and if I did, I wish I were able to articulate in an easily understandable manner, but I don´t and can´t. However, the caricature represented in some of today´s cultures doesn´t seem to be it either.

Differences are more than just physical. Each, male and female, have unique strengths, maybe an exploration of those would be a good idea?

What do you think Stumpy? Have you given it much thought, or done much research?

Quoting stumpy

 

 Please alameda, enlighten us about what a proper feminin woman is!

 

 



Edited (10/9/2010) by alameda [,]

211.       alameda
3499 posts
 09 Oct 2010 Sat 08:11 am

 Ummm....are you saying gender plays no part in the biological differences between males and females? In that case, what do you think plays a role in those differences?

Quoting Daydreamer

 ............... Apart from biology (that isn´t actually ruled by gender), men and women should have the same right and responsibilities. ....................

 

 

 

 

212.       alameda
3499 posts
 09 Oct 2010 Sat 08:40 am

Is the object to win, or is the object to communicate? Do you want to confront, or do you want to understand? There is discussion and argument, I am not trying to win a debate, which does not seek to come to the truth, but rather to beat down the "opponent" with clever manipulation of words, and I don´t think you do either, do you?

I don´t see you as an opponent, but rather someone I want to understand so as to be able to live on this earth in some type of harmony. Maybe if we learn to be more hospitable our discussions would be even more interesting when they included more diverse ideas.

Quoting lemon

 

 

Again singing your old songs. Victims of cruel feminism. Canli, Elham and Azade are wonderful souls, almost angels and us are heartless ...

They left because of us. We are to be blame as usual. You are bydand´s twin sister, honestly.

If you join the discussion then you should expect many things and ready to cope with.

I had debates with all muslimah voices on this site and yes, many times I was hursh to them because our opinions were 180 degrees oppposite.

My call was on Turkish ladies not muslimahs in general (or wannabees).

 

 

 

213.       stumpy
638 posts
 09 Oct 2010 Sat 08:51 am

Quote:alameda

What do you think Stumpy? Have you given it much thought, or done much research?

 

I do not need to do research alameda, I live it every day.  I work in a male dominated industry.  I do the same work a man does, I wear a suit, I deal with critical situation.  When the day is over I enjoy a good glass of wine.  When I get home I remove my vest cook the evening meal, set the table and when it is done I clean the table, then there is the laundry and the house cleaning and the kids. Now, my suits do not make me look like a man, on the contrary I am feminan if I do say so.  Now why should I be payed half the salary that a man is payed for the same work?  Just because I do not have an appendage hanging between my legs and that I do not have testosterone pouring out of me?

Should I be religated to the kitchen, barefoot and pregant and with no education and that from the age of 12?  Should I wear dresses and laces and cover my hair and act demure?  A woman can be feminine even if she wears a suit and make executive decisions like a man.  The only diffrence is that we can have children oh and I wear lace under my suits.

A 12 year old girl´s body is not yet ready to have babies since they are children themselves. Women are not breeding machines, we are not on this earth to please a man and give him offsprings.  Women are intitle to an education, to a childhood to make her own decisions concerning who she marries and who she is wants to spend the rest of her life with and have children with, if she wants to have children. 

So I ask, why should anyone have the power to decide the faith of a young girl and marrie her off into servitude?

 

mdoni liked this message
214.       barkindo
22 posts
 09 Oct 2010 Sat 08:55 am

Should we forbid a girl of 15 to marry a 37 year old guy even if she loves him? Sure. Once she reaches the legal age it´s up to her what to do. Remember that Dutch party of paedophiles who wanted to legalise sex with 13 year olds? They didn´t get very popular in Europe.:

 

I find it strange that MARRIAGE of underage  girls is an issue in Europe, and everyone is up in arms about it, but SEX of underage girls is not.  

This August, A German teenage magazine catering to 10 - 13 year olds put mini- condoms into their supplement, saying that according to their survey,  BOTH BOYS AND GIRLS in this age group already have sex, and it is difficult for the boys to protect themselves, because they normal condoms are too big.  

By the time they are 15 more than half of all teenage girls in the UK will have had sex.  So i do not understand why Westerners, including westernised Turks are getting so up in arms about this issue.  

It seems the real problem, as usual is that anything ´free´ is all right, because liberal, western, and modern, and anything that tries to protect the moral fabric of society is wrong, because you MIGHT find an occasional problem with abuse. 

And finally, abuse of women is definitely NOT a backwards Islamic, or even Kurdish problem. Ask the Russian girls in UK brothels how much they are consenting to sex.  So much Hypocrisy and Smugness in the West.

215.       stumpy
638 posts
 09 Oct 2010 Sat 09:08 am

Quote:barkindo

So i do not understand why Westerners, including westernised Turks are getting so up in arms about this issue
Because it is grown adult men marrying girls that are 12, 13,14 years old.  A 14 year old boy with a 12 or 13 year old girl is acceptable but a 25 year old man with a 13 or 14 year old girl is not.  He is in a position of authority over her.  Say you had a daughter, how would you like it if she would be having sex with a 30 year old man?  You would be the first to probably kill that man.  Unless he was wealthy and gave you good money for your daughter, then it would make it ok and you would be compensated!?

216.       libralady
5152 posts
 09 Oct 2010 Sat 10:46 am

 

Quoting stumpy

I do not need to do research alameda, I live it every day.  I work in a male dominated industry.  I do the same work a man does, I wear a suit, I deal with critical situation.  When the day is over I enjoy a good glass of wine.  When I get home I remove my vest cook the evening meal, set the table and when it is done I clean the table, then there is the laundry and the house cleaning and the kids. Now, my suits do not make me look like a man, on the contrary I am feminan if I do say so.  Now why should I be payed half the salary that a man is payed for the same work?  Just because I do not have an appendage hanging between my legs and that I do not have testosterone pouring out of me?

Should I be religated to the kitchen, barefoot and pregant and with no education and that from the age of 12?  Should I wear dresses and laces and cover my hair and act demure?  A woman can be feminine even if she wears a suit and make executive decisions like a man.  The only diffrence is that we can have children oh and I wear lace under my suits.

A 12 year old girl´s body is not yet ready to have babies since they are children themselves. Women are not breeding machines, we are not on this earth to please a man and give him offsprings.  Women are intitle to an education, to a childhood to make her own decisions concerning who she marries and who she is wants to spend the rest of her life with and have children with, if she wants to have children. 

So I ask, why should anyone have the power to decide the faith of a young girl and marrie her off into servitude?

 

 

 This is one of the most sensible comments on this thread in my view, the first two paras represents many women´s lives in the Western World and some of the Asian world too (based on my experiences). 

217.       libralady
5152 posts
 09 Oct 2010 Sat 10:48 am

 

Quoting barkindo

 

 

I find it strange that MARRIAGE of underage  girls is an issue in Europe, and everyone is up in arms about it, but SEX of underage girls is not.  

This August, A German teenage magazine catering to 10 - 13 year olds put mini- condoms into their supplement, saying that according to their survey,  BOTH BOYS AND GIRLS in this age group already have sex, and it is difficult for the boys to protect themselves, because they normal condoms are too big.  

By the time they are 15 more than half of all teenage girls in the UK will have had sex.  So i do not understand why Westerners, including westernised Turks are getting so up in arms about this issue.  

It seems the real problem, as usual is that anything ´free´ is all right, because liberal, western, and modern, and anything that tries to protect the moral fabric of society is wrong, because you MIGHT find an occasional problem with abuse. 

And finally, abuse of women is definitely NOT a backwards Islamic, or even Kurdish problem. Ask the Russian girls in UK brothels how much they are consenting to sex.  So much Hypocrisy and Smugness in the West.

 

 Underage sex with some of your own or similar age is not quite the same as some sleezy old man marrying a girl of 12 or so then subjecting her to various sexual activity against her will. 

218.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 09 Oct 2010 Sat 11:16 am

 

Quoting alameda

 Ummm....are you saying gender plays no part in the biological differences between males and females? In that case, what do you think plays a role in those differences?

 

 

 

Sorry, I wanted to write government, and wrote gender instead - slip of the tongue.

You must know really terrible women. Most women I know are fantastic - and it doesn´t matter who is a homemaker, who´s got a career and who´s got both. I don´t know a single woman my age (32) who lets her husband/partner have the upper hand. All the couples I know are partnerships. They both take responsibility for household chores etc, they both make decisions about the future of kids, holiday or family car. And they are equal in the eyes of law.

Sure, it´s a lot harder for single women, especially these with children. But when I ask my single friends whether they regret kicking their abusive/cheating husbands out, none regrets it. And they could only get rid of the pain in the butt because they live in a country where women are self-sufficient, just like men, and where the state provides a single-parent allowance. Of course, there are still things to work on, like salary equality in some companies, or promotions. But no women I know are forced to obey their families, or get married because it´s their only choice. True, many women stay in abusive relationships, but not because they have nowhere to go, they do it because they´re too weak to make a move or they do not believe in themselves.

And of course there´s lots of crime, there´s human trafficking, forced prostitution, rapes...but there´s no legal or social agreement to that.

BTW, it´s funny to read people moan about evil westerners disrespecting the religion of a guy who stands against gender equality, while they disrespect the evil westerners themselves lol

219.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 09 Oct 2010 Sat 11:47 am

It´s not only women in Turkey who have this problem, I´ve just stubled upon an article about Chechnia and how the government is having problem stopping the disgusting tradition of abducting brides:

"The authorities in Russia´s southern republic of Chechnya say they are taking unprecedented steps to stop women from being kidnapped and forced into marriage.

(...)

When I first asked the Chechen authorities why such practices were tolerated, the president´s press spokesman assured me that bride-stealing was a thing of the past.

Now the authorities have announced that imams who facilitate weddings involving kidnapped women risk punishment and possible excommunication.

Last week, after a meeting with Chechnya´s religious leader, Mufti Sultan Mirzayev, President Ramzan Kadyrov declared that abducting brides was un-Islamic and must be "eradicated from society".

(...)

Mr Mirzayev said in the future kidnappers would be hit in the pocket with a 1m-rouble (£21,00 fine, payable to the girl´s family.

"Perhaps the president is right," he added, "but we are mountain people, proud of our traditions, and this custom has been going on for centuries - you can´t get rid of it overnight".

Lipkhan Bazaeva, head of the Women´s Dignity Centre in Grozny, believes bride-stealing has increased significantly in recent years after two devastating pro-independence wars against Russia brutalised Chechen society.

Her group conducted a survey which found that as many as one in five brides had been stolen.

Instead of increasing the fine, Mrs Bazaeva would prefer the authorities to enact existing Russian laws which punish kidnapping with up to nine years in prison.

It is not yet clear to what extent President Kadyrov expects law enforcement bodies to get involved. People here struggle to balance the often contradictory forces of Russian law, Islamic Sharia law and Chechen tradition.

When a woman is stolen here, families rarely contact the police - instead, they go to their village imam.

Anyone who believes that the official clampdown on bride-stealing means a brighter future for women´s civil and social rights here might be sorely disappointed.

Since June, unidentified men with paintball guns have driven round the centre of Grozny shooting at women with uncovered heads. Leaflets were pinned on doors and scattered on the pavements which urged women to dress more modestly or face the consequences:

"Today we have sprayed you with paint, but this is only a war."

source:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11495177

It would be unjust to claim only Muslim territories suffer from men´s conviction of being supreme to women. All across Europe, Gypsies are afraid to send their daughters to school for fear of them being kidnapped and forced to marry. It is often the case that parents cannot even see their daughter, who might be taken abroad. Not to mention the fact, that police is hardly ever contacted.

(can´t give an online search for that, I read about it in "Wysokie Obcasy" magazine)

 

 

220.       bydand
755 posts
 09 Oct 2010 Sat 01:44 pm

 

Quoting lemon

 

Really?

You mean white english scottish and welsh do force their daughters into marriage?

So far it is a Turkish problem because the initial post was saying so, plus Turkey itself is enough big source.

As you say you dont know much about the situation there, then what was your point? What input you wanted to add?

 

Im still curious about Turkish men´s opinions here.

 

I don´t know where you come from lemon but not all Scottish citizens are white. {#emotions_dlg.lol} The Scottish parliament are planning to introduce legislation to prevent forced marriage. Arranged marriages would not be affected.

http://news.stv.tv/scotland/200246-protection-against-forced-marriage-outlined/

I know this thread is about Turkey but to imply it is only a Turkish problem is plain silly, it is a world wide problem.

 

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