Catwoman, I am just refering to a huge paradox here. This paradox stems from the proto-culture the entire European civilization embraces as the true basis of their culture: the Hellenic civilization. Rennaisance and Reformation movements set the clock back to the Hellenic times regarding it a new inspiration for its new democratic foundation. This new movement prioritized reason over faith and opened up new avenues for science to flourish as a result of a series catalysts that caused a chain reaction. We can confidently call this a step forward for humanity but unfortunately, we often disregard one obvious flaw of it: the European world just like the Hellenic one did before, closed their doors to other cultures and collectively defied them often satanizing, belittling and fearing them. In other words, it is a closed community with a xenophobic outlook.

Remember Narcissus who falls in love with her own reflection in water, Europe is in an endless love with itself. Amid all this boasting, it hides a monster that occasionally rears its ugly face. We don´t observe it in the political statements but racism still lingers on very strongly, in the streets, stadiums, rituals and possibly in the privacy of family life.

I´d expressly attest, racism of the kind found in Europe does not exist in my country. People don´t throw bananas to black players and they don´t discriminate people according to their skin colors. This is often done openly and blatantly in the US and usually in a hypocratical manner in Europe and manifests itself with all its kaboom fired by the group psychology present in the stadiums of Europe.

That is well said, but I am not sure if I completely agree. There is a different kind of racism in different countries due to different circumstances, and I think you´re completely right in that the West thinks of itself as superior and thus acts arrogant towards others whom they perceive as less inferior, which is very disgusting. You can sense that mentality in them.

However, I am not so sure that minorities are so happy in countries like Turkey? Especially when you talk about religious minorities? Can people freely practice THEIR OWN culture and traditions in countries like Turkey? I don´t know but I am not optimistic about it. I think Turkey is good to visitors as long as the visitors embrace unconditionally and praise and love Turkey.

I could be wrong.. I don´t know the statistics.

My theory is thirty per cent of people are potential idiots everywhere. That´s about the maximum support populist parties can gain in European countries and usually they have to do with less. Other forces in the society can keep these people in order but in important matters cooperation is needed.

What is more worrying is the atmosphere which in my opinion has changed. It has become more accepted in my country at least to open one´s mouth for racist insults. Things that you heard from bums before you can hear from ordinary looking people. If one person in a full city bus calls a Somali mother an animal when she enters the bus and the rest of the passengers stay quiet I think the society is sick. They call it criticism of immigration but it is pure racism.

I have noticed the same in Holland, but recently I have also noticed that the pendle might be swinging back. Some people who have lived in a multi-cultural society for years with much pleasure, are starting to speak up against the somewhat "accepted" racist comments. I hope we can keep the pendle swinging back, away from racism before the next elections. I´d hate to see some idiot populist party gaining too much power.

However, I must also note that racism in Europe is not a "European love affair." It has nothing to do with finding "Europe" superior. The biggest populist in my country (Geert Wilders) finds Europe an idiotic concept, and sees the United States as an example that Holland needs to follow. I have a problem with some Turkish people seeing Europe as a single identity, because that itself seems a bit racist. The "West" is sometimes seen as 1 thing, with 1 mind and 1 opinion. Sometimes Turkish people judge me on what a single person in France or Germany does...

Barba, refering to your last paragraph, in what context are you making these statements? History tells us there is a table in the middle and Europe is on one side and Turkey is on the other. (Turkey as the leader of the ME).

Do you realize, if it weren´t for an almost tangible union in Europe (not necessarily the EU),for example the Netherlands would hold no significance in terms of East-West relations at all with its tiny population and smallish economy. All European countries act in perfect unity regarding matters outside Europe. There are occasional problems that concern Europe only but those are completely outside the context here.

We could even say, if it weren´t for the European tradition and its intrinsic balances and dynamics, countries like Holland would not even exist and would have long been seized by Russia.

Contrary to what you say, Europe has a unity although it is made up of smaller elements. Everyone regards them like that and they regard everyone like that.

As for us, despite all our convergence and millenia long interaction that includes a massive mix up of bloods, we are still seen a non-European element. Everybody knows what is what, the rest is just void talk and hypocracy.

I have had the good fortune and opportunity to live in Europe, North American and for a time the Middle East.  I find generally, that people no matter where I go are kind, generous, warm and forgiving of my ignorance of their culture. I have, for the most part, never experienced racism in my travels.  The West is a very complicated society.  I would dare to say it is much more complicated than many other parts of the world.  We are many people with many customs trying to live together and assimlate our own personal identities into a single culture.  As an American, I can tell you that my country is always evolving.  It has not reached perfection yet and maybe it never will. I hate to harp on this one point about the media, but how often do you see the goodness of mankind reported...or is it just the bad things that are reported?  I hope that I have in some way, changed many people´s minds (mainly my Western family, friends and anyone else that will listen) about Turkey.  Maybe I won´t ever change any one´s mind about the West, but I would hope that people would get to know me and see that we are not all bigoted racists.  

I view it as a snapshot of the present. We like to look at the past and talk about Europe or Turkey in times of sultans and empires, as if it is how Europe looks today. If that were true, Holland would still be a world power! I think your knowledge of Dutch history is very limited if you think it would be seized by Russia somehow, without the support of "Europe". Holland has influenced Russia more than the other way around (read about the history of St. Petersburg). I find it funny that you say that Holland has a "smallish" economy, since it is a bigger economy than Turkey when you measure it in GDP. I also don´t see Turkey as a leader of the Middle East. Somehow I don´t see Turkey as truly Middle Eastern. When I think Middle East, I think Arab. And Turkey is not an Arab country. Sure, it has some Arab influences, but even Holland has some Arab influences. Again, there have been more important Arab influences than Russian influence troughout my country´s history. But that is my point exactly. Turkey is nothing like Saudi Arabia (as a random Middle Eastern country). Nobody claims that Turkey is anything like Saudi Arabia. And people don´t hold Turkey responsible for anything that Saudi Arabians do or say. Why do a lot of Turkish people than think that Holland is somehow the same as, for example Greece, because it´s "Europe"? Turkey and Greece are much more similar than Greece and Holland will ever be. Living in the same house doesn´t make people family

To put it in a nutshell:

-I may have underestimated Holland but what about the other smaller countries like Belgium, Switzerland etc? Aren´t they regarded as one of Europe? Can´t a great deal of their economic success be attributed to their being members of the family?

-Returning to Holland and Turkey, in any tug of war between nations or regions, one has to take into account several parameters, I admit GDP is one of them. Still, there are also other significant parameters such as population, economic depth, foreign trade, gold and foreign exchange reserves and ultimately military power.

-Your GDP example is meaningful for countries experiencing an apex status in their economic performances. If one country´s economy performs in close range to theoratical maximum and if nearly all that performance is registered using the legal avenues, then we can conclude that country has reached its practical maximum and we can barely talkabout a substantial potential for further growth. Holland with its limited land, a well-established tax system and welfare society is one such example.

Turkey on the other hand gets reflected in key economic parameters perhaps as one thirds of what it actually is. Tax dodging is rampant in Turkey, joblesness is artificially higher because of abuses in legal statements. Turkey´s current GDP is actually still a bit higher than that of Holland. In reality, however, if all the trade activity could be truthfully indicated, it could (as many say) would increase substantially. What is more Turkey resembles a fast train with all its economic dynamism, it is in the process of reaching its apex. When this is done, it will be a very formidable economic power in Europe. I may not live to see that but the way it looks, it will certainly happen in the near future.

Add to that the fact that, at the end of the day what really counts is purchasing power. In Turkey, we have always been able to buy our friends dinners and lunches whenever we wished and in Holland are you still doing it by Dutch treat? What do you think about your grossly expensive lives? Why is even water so expensive in your country, do you realize this situation creates an artificial aura of welfare which doesn´t translate into practical benefit. In fact, the only reason why Turkey is expensive in certain items such as energy and say automotive is the government´s desire to balance budget deficit. This forces us to drive lesser cars and do fewer miles on account of sky-rocketing prices.

What do you mean, water is expensive in Holland? In Turkey I have to by bottled water to get a simple drink, in Holland I pay about 1 lira for a big bottle of drinkable water from my own tap My point was not about Turkey vs. Holland, but you are actually proof of what I´m saying. A lot, perhaps most Turkish people see Europe as a block that is uniform. Totalllly ignoring the past, the present, and also the future of all European countries that is so diverse. For example, Switzerland, that tiny country, is not part of the Euro. It doesn´t have to be, and doesn´t WANT to be because it has its own unique history of banking, which earns it a LOT of money. Europe is a continent, and the EU is just a group of countries... it is not A SINGLE country. Just like Turkey is on two continents, and it is part of NATO. NATO is not a single cultural entity.

And about your discrediting of Holland... Dutch treat is not called Dutch treat in Holland, but American style! We do this only with close friends, because we all want to give something to our friends. Than we debate about who picks up the bill for about half an hour "I´m taking the bill! No, let me pay!" that eventually, SOMETIMES, we decide to split it. It is a matter of fighting over the bill, not fighting over not paying. If you ever go out with a Dutch girl, please do not opt for "going Dutch", because she will never want to go out with you again. She will think you´re cheap, for not offering to pay the bill And I think you should nuance your view of the "grossly expencive" life in Holland, and look at the people in Turkey who live on minimum wage. You will find that they think life in Turkey is grossly expencive.

OK I´ve learned my lesson today. Somehow, it felt like reading Rip Van Winkle for a moment 

Who is Rip van Winkle?