I think most people realize that you can´t be BOTH happy and intolerant.  I am just starting to wonder if people WANT to be unhappy. 

It is a grey issue, not as black and white as some people try to paint it on here. In Holland we have a lot of problems with violent youth groups, who terrorize neighborhoods. Most of these groups are Moroccon. They proclaim this with pride, use the word Allah with everything that they do. You can´t blame some people from linking violence and bad behaviour with Islam, if they see this kind of behaviour every day. For some people it is hard to not generalize. It is key to keep a debate going, and to not point a blaming finger to anybody, but to work together for solutions. How can we make the parents of these children more involved? Having worked at a high school, I can say it can be a real problem trying to get these kind of children out of the bullying, sometimes even violent and criminal ways of living. You need the help of parents for that, but the parents are more often than not very involved. Daddy spends most of his time drinking tea with a bunch of other men, going to the mosque occasionly, saying the children are his wife´s business. The wife however doesn´t speak much Dutch, is unable to discuss her child with me, and only leaves the house to go to the local supermarket, where they also speak her native language.

The problem is not only racist people. The problem is not Islam. The problem is everybody living in there own little boxes, and not working together to fix problems. And problems are certainly there. Denying the issues that are so clearly there is not helping. For example, those guys who burned the poppies, YES they are a problem, even if it´s only a handfull!

Gee, we have problems with black, Vietnamese, Mexican, Columbian, and who ever are poor, and alienated. I think the problem is one of grinding poverty and loss of hope. Nothing is as dangerous as the one who feels they have nothing to loose.

Barba, I´m sure you know how a group can be demonized....it happened to the Jews pre WWII......Islam is the flavor of the day. Then there was a time it was Catholics against Protestants. Now, the former colonizer countries cry with dismay when the former colonized are at their doors. What did they expect?

One can not underestimate the effect on people when they feel they have something to loose, when they feel they are invested in things...like the society they are in.  When they feel like outsiders, nothing good comes out of it.

Alameda, are you snapping at BM because the group she spoke about are Muslim? Does the fact they are Muslim make them untouchable? BM pointed out that it is not the religion that is the problem but their unwillingness to assimilate. I´ve no idea how things work over the pond, but in The Netherlands there are free courses of Dutch. Why don´t the women sign up and make an effort to learn the language of the country they CHOSE to live in? The country where their children are going to live in? Why don´t the parents get involved in raising their children? Why do men think it´s women´s job to raise the kids?

What do you suggest should be done to make them change their lifestyles? Improve their living conditions? I imagine they have houses from the social housing projects and the social welfare they get lets them live quite normally without having to work but, what´s most important, without feeling poor. That´s how western Europe works - you don´t get food stamps and end up homeless. Most western states provide free houses and money that is enough to let you live. In Ireland the minimum wage is 8.60e/hour, which makes about 335e/week. Social welfare is 196e/week and if you´re getting it, you´re entitled to rent allowance which, depending on which county you live in, is 100-200e/week. This gives you 296e/week just for yourself. If your spouse is not working as well, you get about 135e/week for her/him and 25e/week for each kid. Additionally you get 150e/month per each child. It is way more than what you get working for minimim wage. Renting prices are from 1,000e/month in big cities like Dublin or Galway to 400e/month in the rest of the country (I´m talking about a 3/4 bed semi-detached house). It´s hard to call people on social welfare poor in this case, isn´t it?

So, what other excuse can they have for not assimilating? Hmm they get money without working, they get free housing, free language courses they don´t sign up for, free courses for gaining new skills and still they don´t want do anything. How discriminatory of the evil west...I´d for once, love to hear suggestions as to what can be done to make these people assimilate. Apparently giving them homes, money and language help doesn´t do it.

Islam does not recognize or identify with Western sociological concepts like nationalism or racism. What defines Moslems as a group is another concept called "ummet", which basically means Moslem Brotherhood.

Expecting the assimilation of genuine Moslems into another society - within the context of such alien Western concepts - is hardly realistic. Why dont you try assimilating into Moslems instead, Daydreamer !

You´d look vey sharp in a burka !

I´m afraid I´d look like a circus tent dear Alphie But thanks for saying that

Assimilate into Muslim? Hmm...I don´t think I´d live longer than 3 days in countries like SA. See, I´m cheeky, independent, refuse to obey to men and I´m vain enough to dislike looking like the said circus tent Not to mention that, apart from the times I´ve been pregnant, I like the occassional drink, cigarette and prefer pork chops to steak. Not to mention enjoying the freedom of not believing in any kind of deity.

Wow, thinking about it, there is not a single thing I might like about being Muslim. Well, the food is great but it´s less of a religious thing than geographical location. Ahm..any ideas what I might like? Maybe there is something that slipped my mind

We poor Moslems have little to offer you, in the way of your earthly pleasures.

Still, we can spare you a flat in the city of Gazza if you promise not to walk around with bombs taped around your waist, in protest; and a loaf of bread every other day.

Admittance into heaven -on the other side - will obviously be guaranteed.

Deal?

DD...how can you refuse?  Isn´t it everything you have ever dreamed of?  Besides, if you get a burka big enough, I am sure you can sew some bacon into the inside of it!  Nobody will ever know...but they will think you smell fabulous!!!

You´re too generous Alpha. But, please, keep it all for yourselves, especially the otherside.

I´m pretty fine here in the evil west. And if Muslim heaven is anything like the way they live on earth, then it´s hell anyway Why would one want infinity in burkas and being empowered by the other gender is beyond me...

 ???????  My, you do jump to conclusions, don´t you? Do you have a problem with Muslims, did I mention Muslims in my post?

I was pointing out the fact that there have been many groups who have been the scapegoat...Poles were a popular one to dump one here....Now it´s the Latinos and Muslims who are the popular to dump on groups in the USA. It seems Muslims are the out group in Europe at this time.

As to  their assimilation, I don´t see any reason they should have to assimilate. At least not total assimilation. Some accommodation to one´s situation is smart. Of course, learning to speak and read the language would seem to me to be a no-brainer if one wants to function in a country.

When one has an empire that exploits large indigenous groups, and those same groups visit the former exploiter and take advantage of social programs, it seems like poetic justice to me.

Take a look at the French Colonization of North Africa....

"  From 1848 until independence, the whole Mediterranean region of Algeria was administered as an integral part of France,"

In fact, take a look at French colonies....  and we haven´t even started with the British Empire....

I live in an area where I find the joy of seeing Indian ladies walking down the street with their saris, or shalvar khameez, or the Ethiopian ladies with their white veils floating behind them, Maya ladies with their huipils...and yes a variety of Muslim ladies with different hijabs or even some with niqabs. I cherish the freedom to NOT assimilate. How wonderful would it be to see everyone in jeans or those ugly walking shorts and sweat shirts?....all assimilated?

It would be distracting to see the Island ladies (Hawiians, Samoans ect) walking about bare breasted, but they don´t do that even at home anymore.

i think relating assimilation to types of the clothes we wear or or the food we like to eat (ie to appearances) is very simplistic. assimilation should be related to sharing timeless  VALUES such as the right to justice freedom RESPECT peace.... 

to me assimilation is  a kind of a beautiful mosaic. sort of a combination of different pieces (clothes/ food/ religious beliefs) into one significant piece.