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Selam herkese plz Iam confused I need help with grammer
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| 1. |
30 Jan 2007 Tue 04:43 pm |
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I can't understand this ,what is the meaning and when I can use them??please it's confusing 
gel-miş-im idi ise
gel-miş idi-m ise
gel-miş idi ise-m
gel-di idi
gel-miş idi
gel-di ise
gel-miş ise
gel-di idi ise
gel-miş idi ise
gel-miş imiş ise
when I can use them what does it means?give me examples lutfen please 
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| 2. |
31 Jan 2007 Wed 03:29 pm |
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hi again,please someone help me with this gramer.
thnx
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| 3. |
31 Jan 2007 Wed 05:26 pm |
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Quoting Nisreen: I can't understand this ,what is the meaning and when I can use them??please it's confusing
gel-miş-im idi ise
gel-miş idi-m ise
gel-miş idi ise-m
gel-di idi
gel-miş idi
gel-di ise
gel-miş ise
gel-di idi ise
gel-miş idi ise
gel-miş imiş ise
when I can use them what does it means?give me examples lutfen please
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Oy... Did you get these out of a grammar book? Some of them are somewhat non-standard or more rural forms not often heard in Istanbul Turkish. Some are theoretically possible but in practice almost never used, so I wouldn't worry too much about them.
First a word about -miş (which seems to be providing part of the confusion): When the -Miş suffix is taught, often it's sense of "secondhand speech, inferred speece" is emphised to the exclusion of other meanings. I'd say that it serves equally as a perfective suffix: that is, indicating that an action is done, finished with, irrespective of who did it, when it was done, or whether you witnessed it or not. This is why "gelmişti" means "he had come" with no sense of reported speech, and "gelmiştir" can usually be translated as "He's come." (Because the important information is that he's here, period.) Just as in English, if someone says "He did the work," you might ask "when, how," but if someone says "He's done the work," what's important is not when or how but that the work's done.
Let's look at them one by one:
gel-miş-im idi ise
Obscure, theoretically possible but who ever actually heard it... A Turkish friend I asked about this one said "well...it sounds a bit like something a speaker of Turkish as a second language would say." Because the personal ending -im is directly after the -miş, there is the sense of reported speech. So I'd say "if I'd reportedly come." I would use "gelmişsem" instead. (gelmiş isem) Easier to illustrate in the 3rd person: O gelmişse niye kimse onu görmemiş? "If he had [reportedly] come, why did nobody [reportedly] see him?"
gel-miş idi-m ise (gelmiştimse)
gel-miş idi ise-m (gelmiştiysem)
These both carry the same meaning: If I had come. The second one is far more common, at least in Istanbul speech.
gel-di idi (geldiydi)
gel-miş idi (gelmişti)
These both mean "he had come." The second is much more common; the first is more provincial. When I have friends from Sivas who use "geldiydi" fairly commonly.
gel-di ise (geldiyse)
If he came. Plain and simple.
gel-miş ise (gelmişse)
If he [reportedly] came, or if he's come.
See the first example for how to use it.
gel-di idi ise (geldiydiyse)
gel-miş idi ise (gelmiştiyse)
If he had come, but not in an "impossible conditional" sense. The second is much more common. And even more common would be just the plain "geldiyse." In English the phrase "If he had come" usually precedes an impossible condition, i.e. "If he had come, we wouldn't be in this mess," [but we are] or "If he had come I'd have seen him" [but I didn't]. In Turkish you would use "gelseydi" for those situations. I really can't think of a use for "gelmiştiyse" where "geldiyse" wouldn't be perfectly sufficient, and probably much more used. But Turks often tend to use the past perfect in the sense of a more distant past as well, so perhaps one might use it there.
gel-miş imiş ise (gelmişmişse)
Okay, this has a special sense. Gelmiş is generally interpreted as "if he came" when you didn't see him come or when you only have someone else's report of him coming. But putting a -miş on top of a -miş emphasises that you don't believe he came. "If he supposedly came [but I don't think he did].
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| 4. |
31 Jan 2007 Wed 05:44 pm |
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çok teşekkürler çok...you are really nice
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| 5. |
31 Jan 2007 Wed 05:58 pm |
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Quoting Nisreen: I can't understand this ,what is the meaning and when I can use them??please it's confusing
gel-miş-im idi ise
gel-miş idi-m ise
gel-miş idi ise-m
gel-di idi
gel-miş idi
gel-di ise
gel-miş ise
gel-di idi ise
gel-miş idi ise
gel-miş imiş ise
when I can use them what does it means?give me examples lutfen please
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These don't make sense:
gelmiş+im+idi+ise
gelmiş+idi+m+ise
gelmiş+idi+ise+m
This is wrong grammatically, but it is used in countryside:
geldi+idi: "geldiydi" he had come
These are okay:
gelmiş+idi: "gelmişti" he had come
gelmiş+ise: "gelmişse" if he came (possible situation for past, but "heard-news")
geldi+ise: "geldiyse" if he came (possible situation for past, but "seen-news")
And these don't make sense either:
gel-di+idi+ise
gel-miş+idi+ise
gel-miş+imiş+ise
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| 6. |
31 Jan 2007 Wed 08:07 pm |
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I'd love to know where the examples came from! (For example, Lewis' Turkish Grammar lists several non-standard forms and there are more that are not included there.)
I'll put on my linguist's hat and say I think we should make a distinction between "wrong" and "non-standard." "Geldiydim" is not standard Turkish. But it is a common construction in certain areas; a very real part of the continuum of Turkish. Concepts of "right/wrong" are often more of a political rather than a linguistic issue; unfortunately it can also lead to a lot of linguistic snobbery.
A good illustration might be the form, "gidek." (Or "gidex," the "x" standing for a "kh" sound.) In Turkey, if one says "haydi gidek" in any other than "imitating easterners," he would be branded a bumpkin. On the other hand, right over the border in the Azeri region of Iran, "gidex" is perfectly standard. (Of course many Turks find Azeri side-splittingly funny.)
I find it very interesting that in German speaking areas, people learn high German but are very proud of their local dialects and almost always love to speak them with people from the same area. But in Turkey and in Greece, anyone who speaks a non-standard dialect is looked down on, called a "kıro," or "fresh off the mountain" etc. I hope the local dialects don't disappear. I spent time in Arguvan, near Malatya, and I loved the local speech. This speech is the language of Turkish folk music and poetry, it should be appreciated. Yıldız Tilbe recorded a CD of folk songs a few years ago, which included the song "Sunam." It ends (in Arguvan dialect) "Sunam, Sunam, kurban olam, oyoy..." Yıldız hanım sang the very standard "Sunam, Sunam, kurban olayim." By doing that she might as well have said "I have no connection or knowledge of the place this song comes from." Like singing "I can't get any.... satisfaction...."
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