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Conditional Tense
1.       Elisa
0 posts
 21 Feb 2007 Wed 12:00 pm

I learned that the Real Conditional Tense consists of
verb stem + verb mood + -se/-sa + past tense suffix

However, when I look at the 3 pers. plural in WinMekMak, it always puts -se/-sa at the end.. eg: instead of "giderseler" it says "giderlerse". I think that's wrong..

Now, is it me or is it WinMekMak?

2.       SunFlowerSeed
841 posts
 21 Feb 2007 Wed 12:21 pm

Please check here.
http://www.verbix.com/cache/webverbix/31/gitmek.shtml

Many people do this misspelling time to time.
Though you can hear both in Turkey, in the meaning of gitmek,the correct one should be giderlerse. Root is Gitmek.

If you say giderseler the root will be Gidermek. The meaning is different from Gitmek.

Onlar giderse ben de giderim.
Onlar giderlerse ben de giderim.

---Sorunu giderseler de herkes rahat etse.

gitsek mi gitmesek mi?
gitseler mi gitmeseler mi?

잘 먹었다.

3.       Elisa
0 posts
 21 Feb 2007 Wed 12:31 pm

Thanks for explaining!

I see that they only give those two options in the Aorist tense. So does that mean that, in the present continuous tense, "gidiyorlarsa" is the one and only correct version?
And in the past definite "gittiseyler" and not "gittilerse"?
Or does your explanation go for all tenses?

edit: I meant "gittiyseler"...

4.       Elisa
0 posts
 21 Feb 2007 Wed 12:56 pm

Quoting SunFlowerSeed:


If you say giderseler the root will be Gidermek. The meaning is different from Gitmek.



Getting more confused now actually..

'giderseler' (~gitmek) expresses a realistic condition - eg. 'if they come (we will go to the beach together)'
'giderseler' (~gidermek) expresses an unfulfilled wish - 'if they were to get rid of..' (but they couldn't manage to do it)

Do I understand this correctly?

5.       SunFlowerSeed
841 posts
 21 Feb 2007 Wed 01:49 pm

First of all, I am not a linguistic person on Turkish.
But I am checking a book Modern Turkish for beginners.
On conditional,
it is verb stem + tense + -se/-sa + personal suffix

git-se-m
git-se-n
git-se
git-se-k
git-se-niz
git-se-ler

but there is something with past tense with 3rd plural.
Book shows:
gitselerdi. gitseydiler. are both correct.

but the rule changes to
verb stem + se/sa + personal suffix + tense

or
verb stem + se/sa + tense + personal suffix

I don't know how to explain that.

I will check for it.

6.       SunFlowerSeed
841 posts
 21 Feb 2007 Wed 03:05 pm

There are 2 different conditionals.

1- V + tense + se/sa + personal suffix
2- V + se/sa + tense + personal suffix


I don't know grammer terms to name them differently in english.

There is a difference between gitseydiler - gittiyseler.
gitseydiler. -> If they went. (They didn't go)
gittiyseler. -> If they went. (They went)

3rd person plural is kind of tricky indeed.
We can also say gitselerdi for gitseydiler.
and gittilerse for gittiyseler.
They both look correct to me.
I hope someone will explain more.

------
3rd person singular can be used for onlar.
onlar gitseydi.
onlar gittiyse.
------

let's try.

gitseydim. gittiysem.
gitseydin. gittiysen.
gitseydi. gittiyse.
gitseydik. gittiysek.
gitseydiniz. gittiyseniz.
gitseydiler./gitselerdi. gittiyseler./gittilerse.

gitseydim : The important thing is to go.
can be used with -di, -miş.

gittiysem : The important thing is I went.
can be used with -di, miş, aorist, p.c, future.

Quote:


Many people do this misspelling time to time.
Though you can hear both in Turkey, in the meaning of gitmek,the correct one should be giderlerse. Root is Gitmek.

If you say giderseler the root will be Gidermek. The meaning is different from Gitmek.

Onlar giderse ben de giderim.
Onlar giderlerse ben de giderim.

---Sorunu giderseler de herkes rahat etse.



There was a mistake in above that I made.
Ok we have 2 verbs. Gitmek and Gidermek.

gid-er-ler-se
gid-er-se-ler
both are same meaning in aorist.
I don't know why both are correct.

gider-se-ler this one is different. It expresses a wish.
git-se-ler without a tense.

to distinguish the difference between gid-er-se-ler and gider-se-ler I prefered gid-er-ler-se in my first reply.

Sorry that I wouldn't be much help.
And someone urgently needed to check mine too.

7.       SunFlowerSeed
841 posts
 21 Feb 2007 Wed 03:54 pm

Quoting Elisa:

I learned that the Real Conditional Tense consists of
verb stem + verb mood + -se/-sa + past tense suffix

However, when I look at the 3 pers. plural in WinMekMak, it always puts -se/-sa at the end.. eg: instead of "giderseler" it says "giderlerse". I think that's wrong..

Now, is it me or is it WinMekMak?



Without going into that fuss that I made
the answer for your real question is
'Both are correct'.

There is 'se/sa' in the meaning of ''ise''
and there is another 'se/sa' used for ''dilek-şart kipi.''
Sorry I don't know matching word for 'dilek-şart kipi' in english.

Usage of both 'ise' and 'Dilek-Şart kipi' are different.

Regards.

8.       Elisa
0 posts
 21 Feb 2007 Wed 04:38 pm

Thanks for your research SunFlowerSeed.

I think I get what the conditional tense is about (lot of practice needed though :-S ), my question was mainly about that 3p.p.

But I'll stick to putting -se/-sa at the end for the 3rd person plural, seems like more sources gives this as the correct form...

9.       sazji
47 posts
 23 Feb 2007 Fri 09:29 pm

Yes, as sunflower said the 3rd plural is a bit tricky; often that plural ending comes before a past ending or a conditional. I.e. there are people who say "giderseler" but "giderlerse" is much more standard. In the same way, you sometimes hear "gidiyordular" but "gidiyorlardı" is also more standard. (It was one of my favorite mistakes when I first came to Turkey.)

10.       Elisa
0 posts
 25 Feb 2007 Sun 05:01 pm

Thanks Sazji

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