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"-MEsi için"?
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| 1. |
22 May 2007 Tue 09:51 am |
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Yesterday we learnt about gerunds ending in -ME (ex. -meden önce, mesine rağmen,..), and the ones ending in -DIK (ex. -dikten sonra, - diği süreci,..)
My teacher mentioned one that I had never heard about:
-MEsi için. She gave a couple of examples:
* Sizinle görüşmem için, buraya geldim
* Yüzmemiz için, denize gidiyoruz
* Araba kullanması için, anahtar lazım
I always thought that the -MEK-infinitive would suffice with "için". So no adding of personal suffixes...
What do you guys think?
Kafam karıştı :-S
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| 2. |
22 May 2007 Tue 10:47 am |
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-mek infinitive doesn't take personal suffixes, but it takes all the other noun suffixes
-me/ma infinitive does all the noun suffixes, personal or otherwise. There have been several long threads on the language forum. Scan back a few pages.
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| 3. |
22 May 2007 Tue 10:54 am |
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Quoting longinotti1: -mek infinitive doesn't take personal suffixes, but it takes all the other noun suffixes
-me/ma infinitive does all the noun suffixes, personal or otherwise. There have been several long threads on the language forum. Scan back a few pages. |
Yeah, thanks, but I do get all that you know...
My question was: WHY should you use -mesi + için and not just -mek + için?
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| 4. |
22 May 2007 Tue 11:11 am |
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Quoting Elisa: Quoting longinotti1: -mek infinitive doesn't take personal suffixes, but it takes all the other noun suffixes
-me/ma infinitive does all the noun suffixes, personal or otherwise. There have been several long threads on the language forum. Scan back a few pages. |
Yeah, thanks, but I do get all that you know...
My question was: WHY should you use -mesi + için and not just -mek + için? |
One possibility is that "-esi" is the second member of a third person possessive construction. So for example if the whole phrase is: "Onun Gelmesi icin" (because of his coming) You would use Gelmesi and not Gelmek. But if the phrase is
"o çalişmak istiyor" (he wants to work) you use -mek
In the example you gave "araba kullanmasi, anatar lazim"
It is an indefinite possessive construction. It translates "(for) a Cars' using, a key is necessary"
I have the same difficulty with the infinitives. In the short run I am trying to understand them when I hear them, but I avoid trying to use them.
(I revised this answer)
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| 5. |
22 May 2007 Tue 11:54 am |
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Quoting longinotti1:
In the example you gave "araba kullanmasi, anatar lazim"
It is an indefinite possessive construction. It translates "(for) a Cars' using, a key is necessary" |
My example actually was "(Onun)araba kullanması için, anahtar lazım". - For (his) driving a car, he needs a key.
A more general example would be "Araba kullanmak için, ehliyet gerek." - To drive a car, you need a driver's licence.
Anyway, what it comes down to for me is that I would have used "MEK + için" all the time, in this context anyway. Until yesterday.. 
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| 6. |
22 May 2007 Tue 12:07 pm |
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Quoting Elisa: Yesterday we learnt about gerunds ending in -ME (ex. -meden önce, mesine rağmen,..), and the ones ending in -DIK (ex. -dikten sonra, - diği süreci,..)
My teacher mentioned one that I had never heard about:
-MEsi için. She gave a couple of examples:
* Sizinle görüşmem için, buraya geldim
* Yüzmemiz için, denize gidiyoruz
* Araba kullanması için, anahtar lazım
I always thought that the -MEK-infinitive would suffice with "için". So no adding of personal suffixes...
What do you guys think?
Kafam karıştı :-S |
You can make the same sentences with -mek if you don't care the person who does the action. If the important thing is the action, the activity, then you can use -mek:
Sizinle görüşmek için buraya geldim.
Yüzmek için denize giiriyoruz.
Araba kullanmak için anahtar lazım.
The difference is that we already know who will do these actions:
Sizinle görüşmek için buraya geldim (Ben)
For that reason, the action "sizinle görüşmek" would probably maden by "ben" too. So you can use -mek için too.
Yüzmek için denize giriyoruz (Biz)
Who will swim: "biz", so again, we know the active subject.
Araba kullanmak için anahtar lazım
Only in this sentence, there is a difference. As we don't know who is the person to drive a car, that must be a generalt statement:
The key is necessary in order to drive the car.
If you want to say the person, which is important to be said:
Araba kullanması için anahtar lazım.
He needs the key in order to drive the car.
Maybe there are some more different usages that I could not remember for now. They may need other explanations too.
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| 7. |
22 May 2007 Tue 12:15 pm |
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One more example to make it clearer:
Oğlumun oynaması için parka gittik.
Here, you can see that target action is maden by another person (subject of the relative clause is different): oğlum.
And the subject of the main sentence is: "biz" (gittik)
So you have to use -mesi için instead of -mek için. -mek için will be nonsense here.
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| 8. |
22 May 2007 Tue 01:02 pm |
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Quoting caliptrix: You can make the same sentences with -mek if you don't care the person who does the action. If the important thing is the action, the activity, then you can use -mek |
Quoting caliptrix: One more example to make it clearer:
Oğlumun oynaması için parka gittik.
Here, you can see that target action is maden by another person (subject of the relative clause is different): oğlum.
And the subject of the main sentence is: "biz" (gittik)
So you have to use -mesi için instead of -mek için. -mek için will be nonsense here. |
That's a whole lot clearer than what I heard yesterday evening, thank you! 
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| 9. |
22 May 2007 Tue 02:03 pm |
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Elisa, could you PM me a list of all the topics that you've covered so far at your course? I mean, I suppose you take notes.. I thinkn there could be some that I havent had yet. I was taught the ones you describe in this thread, but for example, I didnt learn 'süreci' (cant remember exactly what you wrote as my mind is already by the pancakes im gonna make now  )
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