Language |
|
|
|
|
|
Diffculty with 'Light' [Short] Infinitives !! Any help?
|
| 1. |
18 Apr 2008 Fri 01:08 am |
|
I am learning Turkish. One of the things I find difficult is understanding when a short infinitive is 'Not' a negative. Yani, I know that >gel-mem [gel-me-m] means I do not go. But when I see things like
'gelmemlazim', 'olmam gerek' ... 'Türk hurrieytinin sesi dinmemiştir' >> I get confused whether a short infinitive is being deployed or is it a 'negative' >> eg. does
''Türk hurrieytinin sesi dinmemiştir' > means that 'The voice of Turkish freedom was heard' OR '... it was not heard'!!!
Can someone expert Turkish 'bilen' guide me how to negotiate this problem? Is there a simple way out?
Other examples:
Gelme, bakma > don't come, don't see
Gelme, bakma > The way s/he/it - comes, sees
Gelmeme, bakmama > to my coming, to my seeing
To a native speaker, perhaps, the understanding is intuitive -- but for a beginner, especially when they may not understand a couple of other words in the same sentence, it poses a real problem. Also in live conversation ... since the ears are not accustomed ... rapid speah is very problematic. And [for god or for bad] even close Turkish firends [who know that I am new to the language] make little effort to express themselves in 'basit Turkice'. When I am speaking to a friend, who I know to be a learner of English/Urdu ... I always use a form of language which avoids ambiguity ... my Turkish friends make little allowance to save me 'utangaçmiş'.
An appeal to Turkish friends ... 'Dikkat ettin lutfen'.
Any help welcome.
Tazx1
|
|
| 2. |
18 Apr 2008 Fri 01:48 am |
|
Hello Tazx1,
It will be a short answer for now, but I think you can understand it.
If you see such a sentence:
"gitmem lazım, gitmem gerek" that means if there is something needed(lazım, gerek) you can look word's suffixes.
If it is "gitmem" --> git-me-m, yani "I need to go"
If it is "gitmemem" --> git-me-me-m, yani "I need not to go"
If there is one -me(-ma) it is the suffix which makes verbs into nouns. If there are two -me(-ma) suffixes, one of them is the suffix like above and the other is the suffix which makes it negative.
And for other examples:
Nobody can say it is for making negative or making verbs into nouns, if there is only a word, such as "gelme". There must be a sentence. At least one object and a verb. for example:
Bana "gelme" dedi: He said "do not come" to me.
We can understand that, the suffix makes it negative.
Antalya'ta gitme işi iptal oldu: The task to go to Antalya has been cancelled.
I think it's clear.
This is also same for negatives.
Sorry, ı can only write these for now, it is late  If you still have problems, I'll try to explain it later, or I'm sure there are people who can explain better.
İyi geceler.
|
|
| 3. |
18 Apr 2008 Fri 02:50 am |
|
Quoting Tazx1: I am learning Turkish. One of the things I find difficult is understanding when a short infinitive is 'Not' a negative. Yani, I know that >gel-mem [gel-me-m] means I do not go. But when I see things like
'gelmemlazim', 'olmam gerek' ... 'Türk hurrieytinin sesi dinmemiştir' >> I get confused whether a short infinitive is being deployed or is it a 'negative' >> eg. does
''Türk hurrieytinin sesi dinmemiştir' > means that 'The voice of Turkish freedom was heard' OR '... it was not heard'!!!
Can someone expert Turkish 'bilen' guide me how to negotiate this problem? Is there a simple way out?
Other examples:
Gelme, bakma > don't come, don't see
Gelme, bakma > The way s/he/it - comes, sees
Gelmeme, bakmama > to my coming, to my seeing
Tazx1 |
It is hard to explain short way, and also hard to understand in a short time period.
But the first step is;
find the main verb!
If it is the main verb which has -me/ma/mi/mı/mu/mü suffix, then it is negative. Otherwise, you have to analyse the relative clause too. If the verb of the relative clause needs -me/ma suffix, it is not negative. If it doesn't need, then it is negative.
Example;
Gitmem
There is only one verb, and it is the verb of our main clause. So this is main verb. That means: no doubt that this is negative.
Example;
Gitmem gerek
There are two verbs but only one main verb: "gerek olmak"
It means "something is needed"
gerek has no -me/ma.. > the main verb is positive
gitmem is basically "benim gitmem". Even though this is an action, that doesn't tell us a statement happens or not. So that is not a sentence or a clause. "gitme" is not the verb of a sentence. So there is a need of infinitive suffix before the negative suffix. This is only an action or statement, not a sentence or a clause. It is just like "my going"
So this sentence means:
"my going" is needed
Let's consider the negative of the same example;
Gitmemem gerek
You see the same situation; gerek is the main verb. Gitmemem is "my not going". Because;
"gerek" needs a subject:
bir şey gerek!
something is needed!
For our example, the needed thing is "gitmemem". So it has to be a subject. And subjects never has inflexion-suffix
gitmemem has the infinitive suffix -me first:
gitmemem
and then there is one more -me for negative:
gitmemem
So that means: "my not going" is needed
As a last example; let's look at your sentence:
Türk hürriyetinin sesi dinmemiştir
What is the main verb?
- dinmemiştir
So that is negative.
Big note: I am not a teacher, so I might have missed other situations of -me/ma suffix.
|
|
| 4. |
18 Apr 2008 Fri 09:36 am |
|
Quoting caliptrix:
Big note: I am not a teacher, so I might have missed other situations of -me/ma suffix. |
Big correction: Who cares whether you have a teacher's degree or not, you are always the best person a explaining grammar Q in this site!!!!
|
|
| 5. |
18 Apr 2008 Fri 09:54 pm |
|
Thank you Caliptrix
Thank you Faruk
Caliptrix, I went over your comments and follow the logic > and willtry and remember to look for the cues as you mention. One just has to acquire the 'feel' for a language and [no doubt] that cannot be un-naturally forced or speeded up. Of course, when engaging in conversation, there is little time to scan [one has to wait till ears get attuned]. Good, no, excellent. Just one more thing [for the present]!!
What exactly is ... "inflexion-suffix".
Sorry! I never learnt any English grammar [though I taught Literature] ...I just grew up with English. I know it makes things doubly difficult for you. My grammar is limited to Nouns, Verbs, Adj., adverbs ... if you were ask what a 'Gerund' is, I'll be stuck for response [all I know it is kind of a noun].
Just whenever you have time. My main problem is [more or less] solved.
Tazx1
|
|
| 6. |
18 Apr 2008 Fri 11:21 pm |
|
RE: DIFFICULTY WITH 'SHORT' [LIGHT] INFINITIVE VERBS
Bayanlar ile Beyler! Soon after reading what Caliptrix & Faruk had taken the trouble of explaining -- I, very fortunately, came accross a reference book which further clarified the problem. [May be it was just a problem for me, personally]
I can scan and publish the text on this site, if that is what members would like. But, because others [especially Caliptrix & Faruk] have been so helpful, I feel obliged, at least, to refer members to:-
Book: Teach Yourself Turkish
By: David & Celen Pollard
Edition: 2003
ISBN: 9 78007 434225 / [51695]
Refer to: Page 32, and page 118
Publishers: McGraw Hill [USA]
This topic has been very clearly explained, with accompanying examples [supported by English trans.]
I am sure this book can be borrowed from a library. It is fairly expensive to purchase [as it comes with 2 CDs]. This evening, by sheer chance, a friend who gave up learning Turkish after just few weeks of effort; presented it to me. It is a fairly good book [caution: one must have recourse to a good dictionary, in parallel]!
Tazx1
|
|
|
