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Annemarie Schimmel´s "obsession" with Rumi
(17 Messages in 2 pages - View all)
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10.       armegon
1872 posts
 02 Nov 2008 Sun 12:36 am

Celaleddin claims mesnevi is the essence of Quran and inspiration from Allah, in other words these perverted stories in mesnevi are the words of Allah, he says "we took the essence of Quran and threw the rest in front of the dogs" and some muslims call this lunatic Mevlana, what an ignorance...

11.       vineyards
1954 posts
 02 Nov 2008 Sun 11:55 am

 

Quoting armegon

 some muslims call this lunatic Mevlana, what an ignorance...

 

What really happens here is that some posters continue to grossly underestimate his influence on millions of people. As far as I know, his tomb has always been crammed with visitors since the day he died.

 

You are also disregarding the literature of the day. You are basing all your arguments on the moral rules we use today. It is a common mistake to judge hundreds of years ago with the last minute fashion of reasoning. When you read Nasreddin Hodja sans the filters added by each generation to remove what they found inappropriate in his works, you will probably get shocked too. If you also read Baburname the famous book of Babur Shah where you will be introduced to a homosexual king who sees nothing wrong with revealing his love for a male subject along with the sexual habits of other statesmen and commanders of the day, you will have to place Rumi back in his respectable corner.

 

Another mistake being made here is judging the world solely through the eyes of a British, Turkish, Muslim, Christian, feminist, turanist, Marxist or a capitalist person. We humans can go much further than that.

 

P.S. I don´t believe in Rumi´s spiritual cause; I just like some of his statements about tolerance, brotherhood, peace etc.

 

 

12.       armegon
1872 posts
 03 Nov 2008 Mon 09:50 pm

Whats the common mistake you talking about? I think having sex with animals, group sex, incest and adultery are forbidden nearly in all cultures thus universal, these are extreme and the Celaleddin´s way of using language is shameful. Are these the object lessons that he used to educate people claiming that these are the inspirations of Allah?

 

Of course im looking through the window of spirituality and people also, because Celaddin used Islam and he was introduced to muslims as an Islamic philosopher through the centuries. And of course he has some good art like poetry and literature but i just pointed out calling him Mevlana and following his teachings is wrong if you claim you are muslim because according to book of muslims, only Mevla is Allah. It is not so much important that many people visit his tomb and pray to him insead of Allah, many people also visit tellibaba or any other tomb to wish but this does not change the fact that these are superstitions. 

 

Regarding the issue of morals, i agree to some extent that some moral values differs culture to culture, but unfortunately people of that time also bounded with the moral values of Islam that does not change really. Lastly do not mix other characters with Celaleddin since he used Islam, actually thats the common mistake...

13.       Roswitha
4132 posts
 03 Nov 2008 Mon 10:23 pm

Vineyard, were you referring to this person or not. I might be mistaken?

The Babur Nama, a journal kept by the founder of the Mughal Empire in India, gives a detailed accounts of Babur´s conquests in Central Asia, Afghanistan and India. Besides recording his military achievements Babur emerges as a sensitive aesthete, naturalist, poet and lover. But he is also candid about his personal weaknesses like his love for alcohol and his fascination for a 12 year-old boy. Writer and journalist Dilip Hiro has edited the new version of Babur Nama. Here he talks about Babur and his journal.

14.       vineyards
1954 posts
 03 Nov 2008 Mon 10:35 pm

 

Quoting Roswitha

Vineyard, were you referring to this person or not. I might be mistaken?

The Babur Nama, a journal kept by the founder of the Mughal Empire in India, gives a detailed accounts of Babur´s conquests in Central Asia, Afghanistan and India. Besides recording his military achievements Babur emerges as a sensitive aesthete, naturalist, poet and lover. But he is also candid about his personal weaknesses like his love for alcohol and his fascination for a 12 year-old boy. Writer and journalist Dilip Hiro has edited the new version of Babur Nama. Here he talks about Babur and his journal.

 

Yes, this one. I´ve read Baburname (in Turkish) some time ago. It is a very curious reading. I recommend it.

 

Excerpts from a Wikipedia article:

"Babur identified his lineage as Timurid and Chaghatay-Turkic, while his origin, milieu, training, and culture were steeped in Persian culture"

 

 

15.       vineyards
1954 posts
 03 Nov 2008 Mon 10:50 pm

 

Quoting armegon

Whats the common mistake you talking about? I think having sex with animals, group sex, incest and adultery are forbidden nearly in all cultures thus universal, these are extreme and the Celaleddin´s way of using language is shameful. Are these the object lessons that he used to educate people claiming that these are the inspirations of Allah?

 

 

The common mistake I am talking about was already presented in my post.

I suggest you lay hold of a copy of the ancient compliation of jokes by Nasrettin Hoca to understand what I mean.

 

You could pay a visit to Mykanos to further understand the Hellenic notion for sex. As for Ottoman notion for homosexuality; it may be interesting to read how two Janissary commanders fought for the service of a young boy who had become famous for the quality of his service. You could read Naima to learn stories of this kind. Don´t forget Babur Shah either. 

 

I am sure you will find lots of animal sex in Hodja´s ancient texts. If you want to get a bit classier, read Sumbulzade Vehbi Efendi and plunge into hammamiyes a genre of poetry

describing the beauty of young males. Then jump to the 13th century Persia and read Kabusname by Emir Keykavus where you will find all sorts of unethical sexual advices. The Ottoman literature is full of lesbian, gay and what we may call today as straight forward "pervert" content.

 

These people were living by the norms of their time and felt nothing wrong about the things they did, wrote or read.

 

16.       armegon
1872 posts
 03 Nov 2008 Mon 11:50 pm

So what? Are all these claimed as respected scholars of Islam of their time and tried to direct people´s religion ? Pay attention the expression in my post "if you claim you are muslim". You mixing up again religious works with the others and mesnevi is known to be religious work. Today you can also find many written pornographic stories. In addition today for example homosexuality is very common in Saudi Arabia and people felt nothing wrong about the things they did. Besides do not tell me homosexuality, having sex with animals etc are publicly free in the time of Ottomans.

 

Im talking about the norms of Islam, not the norms of their time. So instead of advising me to read the stories you mentioned and trying to display how intellectuel you are, firstly you need to learn to read carefully...

17.       vineyards
1954 posts
 04 Nov 2008 Tue 12:43 am

OK. Give me a break then.

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