News articles, events, announcements |
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Turkey´s sex workers seek to establish a union
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90. |
09 Nov 2008 Sun 06:05 pm |
Although I am aware of the many dimensions into this topic, but I would like to go along with Cat. In the end, as a man (or as a woman), you are buying a piece of flesh!! You are ´buying´ her and she has to please you during the agreed time.. It is a kind of slavery from my point of view. Though personally I have never come a cross of a prostitute with upper hand, but I trust the post from lesluv. But, kk, they may determine the rules, price, what will be the agreed performance etc., in the end they are the ones whose service is bought..I can not see very much upper hand in that situation really. I am sure there are many women out there who might have need more of it for their satisfaction and they might think that they would like to earn some money while doing it but I dont think I will ever come to think that selling sex is the right thing to do..(it might be possible in Europe but to be honest, in counties like my own country the sex workers are mainly low IQ women whom abused and used by their pimps and their clients) And I am sure those ´willingly doing it´ are quite marginal as far as the number are concerned but I would respect their choice of freedom. And having union for these women in Turkey might sound a good thing..But, personally, I find it hard to believe it is going to change anything for them at all..(I always thought that their relations with their pimps are quite primitive. That is the reason why I am spectical about a good out come ) I agree with cat about criminalizing it .. It should be criminalized for the people who are paying for it. Although knowing the fact that it is not going to happen soon but, somebody, sometimes, should always tell ´what needs to be done´ and ´how it should be´.. Cat has been doing this on this topic, I think..
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91. |
09 Nov 2008 Sun 06:27 pm |
You are ´buying´ her and she has to please you during the agreed time.. It is a kind of slavery from my point of view. --
in the end they are the ones whose service is bought..I can not see very much upper hand in that situation really.
I´m skipping your other points here for a bit because I think they have been discussed lots, and I should think a little more about what you said about primitive relations etc. I just wanted to reply to this part where you show your view about sex as a service.
In your opinion, any kind of work in which you give your time in order to fullfill another one´s need, is slavery. Think of an aupair: she is hired for an agreed amount of time for an agreed amount of money to do a thing which both parties agreed upon: cook a nice meal, clean the house. In other words: she has to please the people she is working for and gets paid for it.
Apparantly some people think that giving sexual pleasure is ´lower´ than cleaning someones toilet and cooking a meal for another woman´s children.
In the end it is all the same deal, but because sex is viewed by so many people as something very personal and very special, it becomes degrading to be able to buy it. Sex is just something people DO. It is not special or personal, at least, it doesn´t necessarily have to be.
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92. |
09 Nov 2008 Sun 06:34 pm |
I agree with cat about criminalizing it .. It should be criminalized for the people who are paying for it. Although knowing the fact that it is not going to happen soon but, somebody, sometimes, should always tell ´what needs to be done´ and ´how it should be´.. Cat has been doing this on this topic, I think..
I really do not see why sex cannot be bought. What is this ´special´ helo that is around sex that makes people think it is something that can only happen between two people who know each other, care for each other etc? Why can´t it be between two complete strangers?
I totally agree with all the things CW has said about the complete wrong, male inspired image of what feminine should be, what female sexuality is, about all the malpractice in exploiting women, traficing, submission etc. There is a whole lot in the prostitution and in male dominated society that need be changed. But seeing it as a crime to sell and buy sex in itself? No.
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93. |
09 Nov 2008 Sun 06:40 pm |
I really do not see why sex cannot be bought. What is this ´special´ helo that is around sex that makes people think it is something that can only happen between two people who know each other, care for each other etc? Why can´t it be between two complete strangers?
You really don´t know? 
If you had sex without any emotion all your life, I think you would be very unhappy...
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94. |
09 Nov 2008 Sun 06:43 pm |
You really don´t know? 
If you had sex without any emotion all your life, I think you would be very unhappy...
Being a prostitute does not mean you have all your life sex without any emotion, not businesslike, not private.
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95. |
09 Nov 2008 Sun 06:45 pm |
Being a prostitute does not mean you have all your life sex without any emotion, not businesslike, not private.
I was not necessarily talking about prostitutes, it was in reply to DK´s comment about sex between two strangers.
But to use prostitutes as a good example, I don´t know any personally, but I never heard of a happy one in old age who thought "I am so glad I did that job" 
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96. |
09 Nov 2008 Sun 07:04 pm |
As I said while there is a need for a service there will always be providers rightly or wrongly, I just fear if we are not more open and supportive that the need for this role exists it will be pushed underground and totally governed by the "johns" (i´ve never heard them called this) and we will cease to hear of the statistics that we do hear about.
Think of it differently. "while there is demand", "and circumstances that drive women to such a job", "there will be supply". There is also (presumably) a demand for serial killers, but you don´t go and say "because there´s demand, it´s good that they are there", I am sure you wish that that demand disappeared.
Women used to be housewifes across the board. That was a role every woman was doomed to fulfill, no matter anything. Most people were appalled and shocked if a woman were to be a thinker, a scientist... not a wife and mother. But societies can change. In these dark times today, the attitudes towards sexuality is very medieval, I would say, even in most developed places. It is completely male dominated, where men are predators and women are slaves, to describe it on both metaphorical and literal levels. There is still no sexual freedom for women and no sexual ideology that does not come from pornographers and women-objectifiers. This is what are are born and raised with. But, it doesn´t have to be this way, we can change and we can eliminate this ´demand´ from johns to buy a woman´s sexuality.
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97. |
09 Nov 2008 Sun 07:45 pm |
You really don´t know? 
If you had sex without any emotion all your life, I think you would be very unhappy...
No I don´t know.
And yes, you are right.
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98. |
09 Nov 2008 Sun 07:49 pm |
I will reply, whether you will or not I don´t care. You seem to be only able of dramatising.
Several members said they are, like me, against forced prostitution but they don´t condemn the women who have chosen this profession. They also don´t see it all as ´slavery´ or ´male domination´. You do. You can only see the traumatised stories but not, like Lesluv did, the uni-stories - and these stories are less rare then you might think.
Everytime whenever it comes to the position of women, it is always in your view caused by male dominance. Women are ´internalizing male views´ and therefor always the victim of the patriarchal system. Yes, sometimes they are, but sometimes not. You don´t see (want to?) that some prostitutes are very, very strong women who defenitely can look after themselves, who don´t have or need a pimp.
Those women want that job, they are aware of dangers (therefor they want a union and legalising), but surely THEY are in charge in the negotiation between them and their johns.
You sound to me like the evangelising priest who is talking about hell and doom to save souls. I doubt if you ever have spoken to a prostitute in real life or if this is only ´wisdom´ out of books.
I won´t respond to the personal comments Trudy, you are not aware that I have good reasons behind what I say and it´s not simply dramatizing. If you write something contributory, I will respond of course. 
Your last paragraph is especially interesting, and I think - it shows who your are ideas affected by, and that is the pornographers. You are buying into the argument of pornographers that any objection towards pornography or prostitution (and such), is necessarily a conservative religious position. Religions are known to be oppressive towards sexuality and most people cringe when you start talking about sexuality from a religious perspective, that perspective is completely outdated these days, and it is also based on patriarchal values and attributinig women a lower status. Most religions are also against prostitution and pornography, but they still argue from a repressive point of view regarding sexuality. Unfortunately, these days, they are the only vocal group that stands against the sex industry, so anybody who criticizes these issues is automatically identified with them. This is also used by the pornographers a lot, who discredit all criticizms by calling them ´repressive´.
There is also a different approach, the feminist critique of sex exploitation industries. This critique is based on the feminist critique of the society (we call it ´feminist critique´, but it is just a simple, logical and humanist point of view, that says that male domination is not a must in our culture). This position argues that one of the key points in patriarchy is male control of women´s sexuality. Sex industries don´t exist in a vacuum, they exist in a culture that uses women´s bodies as a commodity practically everywhere, culture that has only one conversation about sexuality - one that comes from the male dominated, hegemonic ideology. That ideology is based on male sexual domination of women. Every pornographic image is conveying this idea. This idea is central to all sex industries - pornography, prostitution, stripping...etc. You would not have these industries if you removed that aspect.
Trudy, in fact it is you who has no idea about real life prostitution. You don´t know the context in which it exists. You believe that there is real freedom of choice. I doubt that you ever ventured into gettos and slums where real prostitution thrives, the prostituts you know in ´real life´ are probably the ones in the red light district in Amesterdam. These women are just a diplomatic face to real prostitution. If you look at any statistics of abuse of prostitutes, you would never tell me that "it´s more common then I think that prostitutes are happy and feel fulfilled in their lives".
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99. |
09 Nov 2008 Sun 07:53 pm |
There is still no sexual freedom for women
I find your ideas restricting for the sexual freedom for women. I agree with many things you say, but not with ´no to willingly offering sexual services´. Try to think of the wonderful image of a society that is no longer dominated by male opinion on anything whatsoever. Then the whole context in which prostitution and the sex industry exists, will change. But sex will remain a thing people do. And there are people who do it with emotion, people who do it without, or people who do both. There´s nothing degrading about having emotionless sex.
I´ll leave it here, unless there is another comment that makes me want to respond 
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100. |
09 Nov 2008 Sun 08:27 pm |
Trudy, in fact it is you who has no idea about real life prostitution. You don´t know the context in which it exists. You believe that there is real freedom of choice. I doubt that you ever ventured into gettos and slums where real prostitution thrives, the prostituts you know in ´real life´ are probably the ones in the red light district in Amesterdam. These women are just a diplomatic face to real prostitution. If you look at any statistics of abuse of prostitutes, you would never tell me that "it´s more common then I think that prostitutes are happy and feel fulfilled in their lives".
These arrogant assumptions only make me laugh.
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