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Three essential questions
1.       duda
0 posts
 03 Apr 2006 Mon 10:24 pm

2.       Kadir37
0 posts
 03 Apr 2006 Mon 10:46 pm

3.       Etty
137 posts
 03 Apr 2006 Mon 10:56 pm

Quoting duda:

I apologize if someone had aleady asked about this, but I am comparing towo grammars and I can't find appropriate answers.

1) About Personal Possessive Adjective Suffixes:

If I want to say "his cats", I'l say "kedileri". What happens if I want to say "their cats"? Does "ler" goes twice - "kedilerleri"? I couldn't find an example.

2) What happens if I wan to say "my mother's name is"? Should I write "Adı annem", "Adı annemi" or "Ad annemi"?

3) I've found two different explanations for the 3rd person, plural, in the Simple Present tense (verb to be): "dirlar" (with modifications) and only "lar". What is correct here? Or both are correct?

Thank you!

Hi hope I can help,
'Kedileri' can mean 'his cats', 'their cat' or 'their cats'
To make it clear you would have to use the personal pronoun
ie.
his cats = onun kedileri
Their cat = onların kedisi
Their cats = onların kedileri
ps you never use 2 'ler's, one is always dropped as in 'their cats'

My mothers name is annemin adı ..........dir
'anne' = 'mother'
'anne-m' = 'my mother'
'anne-m-in' = 'my mother's
'ad' = 'name'
!adı' = 'her name'
The 'dir at the end can be omitted in formal speach

4.       erdinc
2151 posts
 04 Apr 2006 Tue 02:51 am

Others have already covered most of the issue.

1. We can omit personal adjectives whenever it is clear from the possessive suffix to whom the word refers to. This doesnt mean it is always alright to omit the personal adjectives. Indeed sometimes it is not a good idea.

In your example we have two issues. The first issue is that the plural suffix -ler is going to get mixed with the third person possessive suffix -ler. Actually this confusion is avoidable since in modern Turkish the third person plural suffix is replaced with the singular suffix. So we normall prefer "onların evi" instead "onların evleri" for a single house.

I have updated my list of possessive suffixes. If you stick to that list you will be always on the right side.

The second problem rises when we omit the personal adjectives. The workaround I found for this problem is not to omit the personal adjectives in three cases as shown below.

Possessive Suffixes

after a consonant
my – benim -ım -im -um -üm
your – senin -ın -in -un -ün
his/her/its – onun -ı -i -u -ü
our – bizim -ımız -imiz -umuz -ümüz
your – sizin -ınız -iniz -unuz -ünüz
their – onların -ı -i -u -ü

after a vowel
my – benim -m
your – senin -n
his/her/its – onun -sı -si –su -sü
our – bizim -mız- miz -muz -müz
your – sizin -nız -niz -nuz -nüz
their – onların -sı -si –su -sü

single object

benim kedim
senin kedin
onun kedisi
bizim kedimiz
sizin kediniz
onların kedisi

kedim
kedin
kedisi
kedimiz
kediniz
onların kedisi

multiple object

benim kedilerim
senin kedilerin
onun kedileri
bizim kedilerimiz
sizin kedileriniz
onların kedileri

kedlerim
kedilerin
onun kedileri
kedilerimiz
kedileriniz
onların kedileri

2. This is called a noun modification:

Otobüs durağı : Bus stop

This is an undefined noun modification because the first noun isn't defined but only the second is. It is not a certain bus that we are talking about.
In noun modifications if it is a defined one the first noun takes suffixes as well.
If the first noun takes suffixes it takes one of these:
-ın -in -un -ün , -nın -nin -nun -nün
The modified noun always takes a suffix which is one of these:
-ı -i -u -ü , -sı -si –su -sü


Otobüsün kapısı : the door of the bus

This is a defined noun modification. As you see this time both nouns have taken suffixes.

Ali'nin arabası : Al's car
Again a defined noun modification.

"Annem" means my mother. To say "my mother's name" we need to make a defined noun modification since it is defined.
So, "my mother" is "annem" and "name" is "ad" which both take noun modification suffixes as shown above. And it becomes:

Annemin adı : My mother's name

Annem+in ad+ı : If you don't understand why we have used -in and -ı here I can explain the vowel and consonant harmony rules.

3.

Quote:

I've found two different explanations for the 3rd person, plural, in the Simple Present tense (verb to be): "dirlar" (with modifications) and only "lar". What is correct here? Or both are correct?


I see what you mean. You are talking about noun sentences. When the predicate isn't a conjugated verb then the sentence is a noun sentence.

Example:
a. Onlar öğrencidir.
b. Onlar öğrencidirler.
c. Onlar öğrenci.
d. Onlar öğrenciler.

As you see I have added two more options to yours. Why? Because the tendency is to use singular conjugation for plurals. In other words while it is both possible to say "Onlar gittiler" and "Onlar gitti" I would pick the latter. It is a matter of taste now since both versions are widely used.

Tenses in Turkish
http://www.turkishclass.com/forumTitle_6_2565

The -dir suffix is really for making statements only. If you make a statement about something you add the -dir suffix.

"Türk milleti çalışkandır." *
"The Turkish Nation is diligent."

"Türk milleti zekidir." *
"The Turkish Nation is intelligent."

"Çünkü Türk milleti milli birlik ve beraberlikle güçlükleri yenmesini bilmiştir." *
"Because the Turkish Nation has known how to defeat difficulties with national unity and integrity."

*From a famous speech of Atatürk, the founder of our Republic. Translations are mine.

Since our example above isn't a statement I would pick either c. or d. which both would be acceptable as shown in my tense charts.

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