Well I think you misunderstood what I said since the begining..

I was comparing how those people become rebels and took arms..

The conditions, the treatment, denying basic rights, ´kill them all´ mentality, ´it is all terrorism´ mentality..

is it clear?

Are you saying that Hamas has te right to carry out terrorist attacks killing Israeli children? Only because Israel occupies more territory that has been given to them? That´s a bit unfair, don´t you think?

The trouble with terrorism is, like Thehandsom argued with Tami before, that it´s hard to define it. Remember that what you perceive as terrorist, may be regarded as freedom fighter by somebody else. And here´s the catch - you need to convince others to support you. Israel has way more support in the EU and US than Palestine, that´s why Hamas will be regarded as terrorists here. On the other hand, Muslim countries will always support Muslim countries and thus they´ll think of Hamas´s actions as justified, like Canli did.

As for me, although it neither matters nor changes anything, I condemn ALL acts of violence aimed at civilians. I don´t care if it´s aggression or payback. NOBODY HAS THE RIGHT TO KILL PEOPLE.

what is the difference whose children they are? they are still children. they all will become warriors because they do not see other examples. it is endless. this land will always be in fire. has anyone heard of example when war led to solution of any problem or conflict? real solution?

problem here that any negotiations helpers have their own hidden motives. usual people who are killing and who are killed are manipulated.

children could be taught by example. current example will make "terrorists" from one and "soldiers" from others.

and it will go on and on

maybe all other world should kill all in both parties? but what example it would be?!?!

 Given to them ?!

Unfair?!!!

Hard to define ? Ýn Palestine case ?!

And Venezuela also is a Muslim Country?!

Yes,i know,its rather prettier if its consider as Muslims countries supporting each others and taking sides other than they are supporting justice and fairness.

Ýts not some commercial campaign,who is the better seller !

Ýts about facts,histrory,and people suffer!

Terrorism?!

Of Hamas ...yes?!

US bomb Ýraq...its war....Ýraqi people fight US back,they are bunch of terrorism!

Ýsrael takes Palestine´s land....´what do you call it ? Their right?their land?what ?´

Palestines fight Ýsrael back..they are terrorists and hard to define !

You know...i dont understand your logic!

Not only you...but all,who see this as justice.

Ýf anyone occupy Poland,will you welcome them ?

Step a side and give them your home,and you will go find yourself any other country to live in and claim it yours ?!

When you go to live in another country,do you go kick people out of their homes and you claim it yours ?

Anyone of you do/did that ?!

And when they fight back,they are the terrorists,and when you kill them,you are defending yourself ?!!!!

Does this happen in your country ?

Ýn Ýrland?

Ýn UK?

Ýn USA?

Ýn Germany?

France?

Ýn ANY country BUT Palestine ?!!!

What  is the excuse you give to make it legal,to make it right,or even arguable?!!!

Really...WHAT?!

The whole situation isnt that old

Ýsrael is just 60 yrs old....before that time,there was NOTHÝNG called israel

Do you expect that land which is taken by israel was empty,doesnt belong to anyone ?!!!

Ýf you admit that land wasnt empty,and there were/are people living there,then israel established their country there...

Then how come you see those people as terrorists,and you give israel the right to defend itself ?!

Are things work this way in where you are ?!!!

Defiantly NOT!

Then how come your logic accept it here,in Palestine,and doesnt accept it there...in any where else ?!!!

Me?

Ý dont understand...i really dont understand...

Ý find only ONE reason, one word.

Ýnterests!

Ýts not logic that israel hypnotised all of the countries that support its acts ´and they would NOT support them if they had same situation back in their countries´,unless,they have interests in the acts of israel.

What interests?

Well,they can be open wide to your imagination!

Thats why israel has more support in the US and EU more than Palestine !

Let´s do some Math here,Hamas killed about 22 israeli through the last 7 or 8 years,Ýsrael killed over 800 civilian in less than 2 weeks and injuird over 3000

250 of them are children,not to mention the numbers before that through the years.

Thats why Hamas is threatening the Children of Ýsrael and it is a terrorist?!

Not israel,no ?!

And i/we side with Hamas because they are Muslims,and Palestine is a Muslim country,not because that is justice,and everyone,EVERYONE has the right to defend his land/country?!

By what logic ?

And why do you accept it for yourself and not accepting it for them?!

And condemning them of being terrorists,and even sending more weapons to israel to wipe them all off ? ´USA´

Same as you did in WWI,II,and defended your countries,were you terrorists then ?!!!

As same as you had/have that right,without being called terrorists,they and also Ýraqis,have same right without being called terrorists!

And as for your question...

No,no one has the right to kill any children or civilian...NO ONE!

They can share the land according to the ´useless´ UN old decision in ,1967  and live,instead of fight and die.

Ps: Ý dont blame you for anything ´you is generally speaking´ we have others to blame,and not just israel !

Exactly as  Amr Moussa said !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8_XD6owbR0

 , that will never happen, i mean the trust issue...

Im also talking about theres no similarity and i added demogogy doesnt affect me as a reply to "everybody sees the similarities" phrase, is it diffucult to understand? Btw i wonder who are those "everybody"? If you mean TLC, no problem but i know many people who refuted this similarity since hamas visited Turkey.

When you resembled pkk with hamas, yourself labelled palestinians. I will be surprised if you got it as you see pkk terrorists as freedom fighters ??. The thing you couldnt perceive is Israel is an occupier unlike Turkey. And again you seem zonked to me when you compare an occupation to the Diyarbakýr prison. I wonder how far you can go with this mentality..

Its a nice turning from you , you have never mentioned this before. But i do know you have respect for terrorists. Then why dont they really voice it publicly? I think it is the most suitable time. Are they ashamed of something? Actually i have to agree maybe the first time with you on this issue , many of them support terrorists in someways. I just voiced the general view that "But most of the Kurds in Turkey do not fancy with pkk".  One of the interesting thing i realized that none of Kurdish friends that i recognized in my life support these terrorist, actually they clearly curse them except some complaints about Turkish government.

And you think firstly they didnt have basic rights, they were stateless, but then they got many rights by the help of pkk. do you really believe this? unbelievable really. So it can be an object lesson for other ethnicities to refer terrorism, let Turkey provoke the Turks in Greece since they are oppressed in Greece and encourage them to kill Grek civilians.

 hmmm, thehandsom says famous Diyarbakýr prison created pkk, how shallow thinking this is. As always you are praising pkk terrorism which is no longer surprising for me...

I dont rely on TESEV supported by Soros unfortunately. What embrassing?  Dont hesitate to voice them, how many times Turkey accepted and paid money for killing children and women, in how many months/years did it reach to the number of children massacred by Israel just in few days?Btw who will pay for those thousands of innocents killed by terrorists?

 Army isnt just the only one to be blamed

 Why you angry ? As i said its the new trend, using Turkey to justify Israel´s occupation and mass-killings. And you can do nothing if i refute your comparison, not only me btw ...

everybody with common sense

I dont think you are able to understand what I said here though..I am telling you WE treated kurds as if they are dirts and we have PKK, Israel treats palestinians the same way, they get Hamas. Is it difficult to understand? not simple enough?

Even the writer I started this thread said something like ´Moreover, it was us who alienated that people by our systemic injustice. For decades, our authoritarian state had banned the Kurds’ language, humiliated their culture, and crushed their political efforts.´

But of course, you can not accept that because, if you do, you will suddenly come to terms with lies you have believed such as ´it is all terrorism, they are all coming from EU and USA´

what turning is that? can you prove? can you show if they are not in line what I said before? How do you come up with the idea that I do respect the terrorists? 

Where did I say that they did not have basic rights because they were stateles? Of course if there was not PKK do you think there would be a kurdish television? if there would be why on earth so many years we said that ´kurdish is not allowed´?

why on earth we said ´ah kurds are mountain turks´? do you really believe what is being given to kurds now would have been given to them naturally? why on earth they were not given before then? 

I really dont believe you believe what you are saying..I guess you are really cursing the current situation that kurdish language, kurdish tv etc were given to kurdish people.. It is a real defeat for people who think like you.

 I can give you at least 100 famous writers name who think the same..And they are mainly intellects of Turkey writers, columnists etc ....and how it is got to do with praising terrorism?  

Anything, anybody that tell something more different than what the army say have to be with Soros?..

But very typical..when you feel you run out of argument, blame EU/USA/WEST and Soros

 I am not angry at all..

 As I said, I am really enjoying it..

Canli, my point was that terrorism is relative. That´s why the perception of what goes on in Gaza differs. Teas and Femme perceive it differently than you do and others, me among them, have a different attitude toward it too. You asked about Poland - we had such cases in the past with Ukrainians murdering Poles. To us they were terrorists, to Ukrainians they´re freedom fighters. Of course it´s natural to defend yourself when you´re attacked but that´s also the excuse Israelis use - they claim to have been attacked and thus to them their actions seem justified.

And the land they´re in was given to them by Brits if I´m not mistaken. You may dislike it, consider it unjust but that happened. It´s similar to what happen to Kosovo that was stolen from Serbia to the benefit of Albania and it is similar to Ossetia fighting for freedom. The difference with the latter is that EU does not support their cause.

Once more, I´m not justifying Israel, I´m siding with Palestine, I just wanted to draw your (collective all) attention to relativism of terrorism

Quoting thehandsom

everybody with common sense

 mainly the only ones who are demagogs

But you havent got my point either, im saying the opposite, Israel´s attitude and violence cannot be comparable. And hamas and pkk are different on the basis but they were used by same mentality.

Injustice not only for Kurds but the whole ethnics including Turks. Kurds do not have priviledge. Kurdish is impossible to be banned in public, its just banned in official foundations just like other languages because Turkish is the official language of the country by constitution and one of the unchangable law applied by Atatürk. I dont think they are humiliated by their culture but humiliated maybe the problem that caused through the history. They have in politics as Turkish citizens since republic was established, even we had Kurdish prime ministers, presidents etc and now they are represented in Parliament nearly 200 parliamentarian. Only separatist Kurdish movements banned. But of course you dont accept this and continue to care for only Kurds like Kurdish nationalists. Have you seen any parliamenters praising Al Qaida for instance in US congress? We have pkk admirers its our speciality

 The lies you have believed, taught and used to brainwash by those which i continously emphasize

 As far as i remember you have never mentioned something like pkk is widely supported by kurds, thats the turning point i think, maybe i remembered wrong

 From your comments here on TLC , with your effort to justify pkk terrrorism, curse everything regarding Turkish

Actually its not the pkk of course, its the ones who use pkk and also dictate their orders to Turkish governments, its the ones who firstly visit Diyarbakýr instead of Ankara arrogantly, its the ones who wants to make south east distinct province. I am also against Kurdish to be used on state´s official tv since its not the official language of the country. Its one of AKP´s investment for the elections. Kurds can open their private televisions, their private schools, there isnt any official difficulty for this, and i really appreciate that they open Kurdish language filology, Kurdish literature etc in some universities.

I never cursed Kurdish language or Kurdish people btw thehandsom you cant prove this unfortunately...

 Are those the intellects who started campaign of apology to Armenians? Nope, dont fancy any of them...

 Its like vicious circle really. Likewise when you feel you run out of argument, your rope is to blame Turkish army, nationalism and arcism

Quoting thehandsom

 As I said, I am really enjoying it..

 But its becoming boring day by day, please come with your so-called facts  from history which you learned from great historians like Pamuk ...

an experpt from an article in Haaretz

The time of the righteous by Gideon Levy

This war, perhaps more than its predecessors, is exposing the true deep veins of Israeli society. Racism and hatred are rearing their heads, as is the impulse for revenge and the thirst for blood. The "inclination of the commander" in the Israel Defense Forces is now "to kill as many as possible," as the military correspondents on television describe it. And even if the reference is to Hamas fighters, this inclination is still chilling.

Anyone who justifies this war also justifies all its crimes. Anyone who sees it as a defensive war must bear the moral responsibility for its consequences. Anyone who now encourages the politicians and the army to continue will also have to bear the mark of Cain that will be branded on his forehead after the war. All those who support the war also support the horror.

So you are accepting NOW that there was violence and now we are negotiating how much it is..eh? 

and you are accepting also they were humiliated as well because the problem they caused in history..I will call it progress  

If you are talking about Soros has brainwashed people like me, I will advice ´dont go there´

I never tried to justify terrorism..As in the begining of this thread I was simply saying nobody is born as a terrorist.  ´what is causing them to be terrorists´ should be analyzed and that cause should be dealt with as the first priority..

Regarding Turkishness, please dont go there either..I am Turkish and I love everything about being Turkish. But your Turkishness is not as same as mine obviously..

Am I right to think that you are not happy with the latest constitutional changes such as making 301 ineffective, opening kurdish tv? and you are implying that we have done these changes because Foreign Powers asked us to do..yes?  

What would you make you believe diyarbakir prison and treating Kurds in there played a very important role in creating PKK?

Do you want names from Ergenekon case? you dont believe this, you dont fancy that. then who will you fancy? Britanny Spears?

Thanks for accepting again that you mention EU/USA/WEST and Soros when you run out of argument.. I clearly explained in my previous posts that how army has been in power since the beginning of republic and how we have been raised with nationalism.. I have a serious base when I blame the army, nationalism and racism..

 But we are making progress here Armegon as you accepted a few things up there.

addition:

I came across  this article: http://www.todayszaman.com/...o?haberno=163760

Although the article  is about Nazim Hikmet but she is telling a few things about brainwashing and the propaganda of nationalism in schools (that is why I wrote above ´ how we have been raised with nationalism´ ) : 

we were under the influence of heavy brainwashing; our school system was turning us into "the strangest creature" right after the Sept. 12, 1980 coup. Even in the math courses we were faced with the propaganda of nationalism. We were learning that leftists were the most awful human beings in the world. In the Turkish classes we were memorizing poems that we didn´t understand at all. Our school system was not just trying to make us one-dimensional people, but even to make us look like each other; even our hair had to be the same style. 
On that day there was a history class and our teacher told us that even Alexander the Great had Turkish origins, like any important personality in the world. Then she asked me about an incident in the 14th century known as the Sheikh Bedrettin uprising. I repeated what our history text book told us: He was a very bad man and his uprising brought the Ottoman Empire to the brink of collapse, but finally he was hung as he deserved. The teacher congratulated me and awarded me with a high mark. 

and also she finishes her article with :

This country should give its citizens the opportunity to not be the strangest creatures, since -- I can hardly bring myself to say it -- they are the cause of most of the evil things that have prevented us from becoming a real democratic state.

Ethem Mahcupyan´s article..

http://www.taraf.com.tr/makale/3498.htm

I will translate some of it..

...Ama daha da önemlisi Hamas’in seçilmesi ile birlikte bütün bir halkin susuz birakilma noktasina kadar zorlanmis olmasi, yani radikal denen unsurlarin radikal kalmalari için her seyin yapilmasi. 

Bu devlet tavri bize hiç de yabanci degil... Bir toplumsal ve siyasal meseleyi terörle mücadele baglaminda tanimlamak, ardindan da karsinizdaki cepheyi terörist kalmasi için zorlamak bilinen bir taktik. Türkiye bunu neredeyse 25 yildir yapiyor. ..

Ancak asil ilginç olan bu tür örgütlerin karsisinda yer alan devletlerin de benzer bir zihniyete sahip olmalari. Aslinda bu devletler kendi toplumlarindan ürküyor, karsilarindaki düsmana kendini yeniden üretme imkâni tanimalari sayesinde bizzat kendi toplumlarindaki özgürlükçü açilimlari engelliyorlar. Her gerçek çözüm alternatifi, bu devletlerin besledigi tehdit algilamasinin koflugunu ortaya çikarma tehlikesi tasiyor. O nedenle de konusmayi, siyaseti ön plana çikaran çözüm alternatifleri ne yasama sansi taninmiyor. Bugün eger Türkiye’de bir PKK hâlâ varsa, bunun asil sorumlusu Türkiye Cumhuriyeti Devleti’dir... Ayni sekilde Hamas’i anlamli bir siyasi güç haline getiren, Filistinlilerin siyaseti siddet üzerinden aramalarini tesvik eden de Israil’in kendisi..

Simdi hepimiz Israil’i ahlaksiz buluyoruz.... ... Israil’i kinamak gerekiyor... Ama eger kendi devletinize bakarken gözleriniz kapaliysa, bu kinamanin fazla bir anlami olmuyor ve insanlar her ülkede ölmeye devam ediyor.

=======

But more importantly, Isreal forced the entire population up to a level such as leaving them without water..I mean, they have done evevrything to keep the radical elements as radical..

This country´s behaviour is not unfamiliar to us.. It is a well known tactic to define  a social and political problem as terrorism and then forcing your opponents to stay as terrorist. Turkey has been doing this for last 25 years...

But the interesting thing is the countries facing these terror organisations are having the same mentality. In fact these countries are afraid of their own people. By letting their enemy to reproduce themselves, they are blocking the democratic openings in their own countries... Every single real alternative is a danger to reveal how empty the danger defined by those states..That is the reason why the alternatives mentioning talking and political solution is not given a chance ..If, today, there is still a PKK in Turkey, the real blame is Turkish Republic..In the same way  Israel is sole responsible for Hamas by making them a political power and encouraging palestinians to  resort to violence..

Now we all find israel immoral....It it necessary to condemn Israel..But when you are looking at your own state with closed eyes,  the value of your condemnation is becoming meaningless and people keep dying in countries..