That´s exactly right, I only read her book and saw the movie she made with the Dutch director who was killed by a Mulism (moderate?) for making it. So I don´t know whether all the arguments you have against her are true or not. I´m basing my post on what I´ve read, and you´re entitled to your own opinion based on what you know. You may be right or you may be wrong, frankly, she´s not somebody I´m going to go to war over with you or anybody else.

Just because you choose to ignore the fact that there are people (which some call radical) that are using Islam to justify violent acts, it doesn´t mean that it´s not an issue. You may call them out of Islam, but that´s not what project themselves as.

How do I know real Muslims do not condemn violent acts? Well, I guess that depends on what you would define as a "real Muslim" to begin with. I would imagine normal, regular people would condemnt violent acts. But if they do, they surely do it quietly, at least quietly enough that the biased media don´t show it (funny though, I watch media from abroad, don´t even watch American tv all that much, but interestingly enough, it´s quiet there too about Muslims protesting violance by other Muslims against both Muslims and "infidels"). Also, there´s been a survey done, and I think it´s in one of Sam Harris´s book about what percentage of people approve suicide bombings "to defend Islam" and the numbers are terrifying. I know surveys are not always accurate, but still, if you even take the margin of error into consideration it´s still awful.

You don´t have to go far to see it too. You complain about the bias of the "western" members. During the massacre in Gaza how many "infidels" expressed their outrage? There´s been multiple threads/posts about it. Where are the threadss with the outrage against violent Muslims expressed by Muslims? All you can say is "It´s not Islam" and how dare you criticize and all west is racist, prejudiced, biased, etc.

Again, I´m not trying to pick a fight with you. It seems that you get real defensive when Islam is discussed. But as you can voice your perception of what´s going on in the world, so can I, and to me, Islam, as a religion, does not have a very friendly face right now. And no, I DON´T think every Muslim is a terrorist killer, if that´s going to be your next argument.

Firstly i stated that i reject to trust a liar and i tried to prove that shes a clear-cut liar. In fact i thought that effort is futile, because its clear as day.  Anyway thats your choice to believe into a liar. By the way i previously talked about that guy who murdered Theo van Gogh here.  You first need to know psychological situation of that guy for sure hes ignorant but i cannot put aside that van Gogh attacked Morrocans in Holland and kept offending them.

Actually you need to know how people living in Islamic societies. These societies are mostly poor, every young brains searching for identity and nobody clearly knows  their own religion, basically they dont read Quran, instead they hire their minds to their religious leaders and sheikhs or cult leaders and those use these young people to gain power and to secure their position. In fact even many of them dont know how to read.  So they can do anything with the order of their leader. Because the only thing they have are those religious leaders.  They pray for them instead of God which is completely shirk. Im the one here who badly criticized so-called leaders and thats why im always against religous states which exploits people’s belief.

In addition these people’s first aim is to look after their family, its their most important duty not like west countries. And in order to realize this they can make anything, so firstly they struggle with their family beforehand struggling with their middle-aged traditions or beforehand educating themselves  thats because i cannot completely condemn them.  People are ignorant, because mostly they have no possibility to educate themselves.  So its easy from here to condemn them.  Real muslim should be against any kind of violence applied to innocents. In Islam killing is strictly forbidden till believers are killed thus its self defence.

Anyway  i think you understand who real muslim is.  Because of this i said they are not muslims and im frustrurated with the hi-jacked name Islam, which is invention of west.  Today all countries see the ones as terrorists who kills innocents.  I criticize the west because its the western imperialists whos sucking their blood and exploit their country and making people hate eachother.  I have to remind you that many muslims protested the acts of Al-Qaida in meetings in various parts of the world.

As for the threads here, there had been many threads condemning the violence of Islamic states. And i also contibuted them and as far as i remember many other members who call themselves muslim criticized too. So its better for you to check the old threads here.  If the intention is constructive, i have no problem with them but when them turns into Islam blackening campaign then of course i have my right to criticize them.

Finally why you continously say that you are not trying to pick a fight with me? Im not boogeyman .  And im not defensive when Islam is discussed and criticized due to respect then for sure i contribute. By the way you havent replied any of my assertions, you just started a new discussion ...

An appropriate reaction when somebody is offending you is to offend them back, discuss the issue with them, or ignore it. It is not to murder that person. 

I can understand the issues related to ignorance and lack of education. However, the terrorist attack on 9/11 was done by educated men who were not poor, and the London attack was done by British citizens, who also were neither poor nor ignorant. All of them had opportunities for a good, comfortable life. So I think the issue is much broader than poverty and ignorance. I do agree that lack of education is a huge problem though - especially when the extent of one´s education is being able to recite portions of the Quran (in the language they don´t even understand).

What do you mean by "In addition these people’s first aim is to look after their family, its their most important duty not like west countries." What do you think we do in the west? Sell our children to the circus? Don´t take care of our families?

"Anyway  i think you understand who real muslim is.  Because of this i said they are not muslims and im frustrurated with the hi-jacked name Islam, which is invention of west.  Today all countries sees the ones as terrorists who kills innocents.  I criticize the west because its the western imperialists whos sucking their blood and exploit their country and making people hate eachother. 

How is it the invention of the west? I´m really buffled by it. Is it the west that makes people say "Allah Akbar" before they blow themselves up and take other people with them? I get it that you don´t think those people are true Muslims and your concept of Islam is different than theirs - and I´m glad there´s probably more people that think like you than like the radicals (insallah) - but that is not how they think or at least act (I really don´t know how they think, I´m not a bloody mind reader). As far as hate goes, well, let´s not start pointing fingers my friend .

Look, I know there are good people among Muslims, among people of all races and religions, I´m not saying all Muslims are bad and all Christians are good. I´m anti-religion no matter what you like to call it - I hate what religions (all of them) do to people and I think they are the root of all evil. Not to say that some people don´t take the good out of their religions and live good lives. It is my conviction though that people are good despite religions, not because of it.

I guess I will have to take a look at the old threads sometime. I´ve been here since November I think, and my impression is quite different than what you´re describing. Maybe it all happened before November

I was saying I didn´t want to pick a fight, because that was not the intent of my previous post. Again, my experience and observation is, any time Islam is discussed, somebody escalates, gets offended, how dare you, bla bla bla. I didn´t want this to turn into another one of those threads that needs to get locked because of personal insults. I just wanted to make a point that it is admirable of AHA to speak out against evils done in the name of religions - agree with it or not - not many people do it (what anti-violence meetings were you referring to? Must have been secret ones). I recenlty posted a link about 2 Muslims being sentenced to death for translating Quoran. When laws of religion say it´s ok to kill people for something so trivial, and any jackass with some power can issue a fatwa to have random people killed (and there are people willing to do that!), you don´t think waht she did is something to admire?

See for me it´s easy to criticize religions, there´s no consequences for it, sure, somebody may get pissed, big deal. I think she risked her life by telling her story. True or not, I don´t know. But admirable (or stupid lol).

Which assertions did you expect a reply to? I thought I did reply to your post.

Melek and Armegon.   I have sometime or other felt like the things both of you have said.  But I have to reply to something Melek said.

"to speak out against evils done in the name of religions"

Before 9/11 the worst terrorist attack in US history was the Oklahoma city bombing.  An American extremist Timothy McVeigh was convicted.  It was determined that the acted to take revenge for an attack on a Christian Extremist Group in Waco Texas, the "DRAVIDIANS".  They were almost or maybe just as extreme as Al Qaida.  

I don´t remember one single Christian leader that ever felt the need to renounce  McVeighs actions as "done in the name of religon because "everybody knew" that he was a "nutjob".   And the killing of the Dravidians was not really protested as "religious persecution either", because regular Christians ´excluded them´. 

In the last 8 years members of our US government and their hired servants made up a story about weapons of Mass Destruction in Irak.   Even most of the Democratics in our congress accepted that story and now 10,000s of people are dead.  Most are not American, and certainly too many completely innocent.

There is plently of blame to go around.

That young guy as i said was searching identity, he found himself into an extremist group, they brainwashed him, then he fooled himself that he did this in the name of Allah which is a way to satisfy his soul and ego and which is not Quaranic. Do you think he is a normal person?

Yeah its not just related to poverty and ignorance, there are also many factors. Let me remind you also ignorance just not related to being educated in the first place. I used an expression there it seems you dont read carefully, i said they usually hire their minds. As for the attacks you mentioned they should be scrutinized very well, they have many aspects rather than religion, i thought religion is just used to cover up some other issue and to show a target. By the way how you come to conclusion that they were not ignorant. In addition you should a little bit think about how the life of muslims on Europe, how they seen by locals, then you can have wider view of the muslim´s life in Europe.

What a reply. I have to say this is an expression of pertness. If you want to hold on to discussion, you better refrain these.  How do you compare the situation of your country with the countries like Sudan, Somali, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India and many others?

Because west using them to describe Islam by putting all people in the same box. Thats my point. In addition have you ever heard of the term islamic-terrorism before the attacks you mentioned?  By the way a muslim means, one who wants and lives in peace so i support peace. Now you decide if they are muslims. And let me remind you a reality, according to west, muslims were always enemy to them, who they fought in crusades and later who they colonized in 1700’s.  And many muslims witnessed this hostility and today they see the wests double-faced politics and this increases the anger of muslims. The idea of seeing muslims as possible victims is just alien to the western mind, it was easier to see them as a burden or an enemy. As is clearly expressed today’s irrational Islamophobia. In addition i think you should also ponder on in the same way what make those westerners kill innocents in various parts of world and their legalized terrorism. You say we didnt condemn the violence of Islamic states and all we say “its not related to Islam”, of course we condemn that violence but whatelse you want us to say if its related to anything rather than Islam. Putting blame on Islam gathers no solution, just the hatred grows more.

This is your opinion,i dont think the same, but i respect. It changes according to what you understand by the word “religion” actually i used this word as synonym of word “din” which is a wrong usage by my side. According to me din is way of God and means faith. Its not an political agenda or ideology. And hate is such a strong word, i only hate whoever hates me. But i agree with you in to some extent, if religion becomes the manifestation of people’s ego, which allows the claim “im better than you” then for sure its root of all evil. So in my opinion, the only problem is human-being. Let me clarify, in my opinion all evil/satan stems from human-being which is an affect of human consciousness, not a cause. 

 Yep it all happened before November and many of them locked ...

In fact we had been many debates here. And in people’s mind its formed that this site is anti-islamic and anti-Turkish, so people began to question the intention and aim of the thread or post. Because of this many Turks and many members left the site, and because of this you cant see many Turks contributing to the site. And actually its not the laws of religion to say kill but the people who are using religion for their own good and for their satisfaction of their own ego.  And no i dont think she did something to admire, spreading hatred is nothing admirable i guess, put aside her hatred and lies, again she had chosen to be clown in political games.

You can criticize any religion by avoiding insults and by avoiding to humiliate people´s belief nothing wrong with it, i also do that. And my intention is not to piss anyone by doing this, i think this is one of our difference. Similar things i had said before, despite her lies, her story may be seen one of the extreme example of her culture.

I mean you didnt touch on the evil acts and politics of imperialist west which make many people mainly riots, you just passed their terrorism. They are the biggest terrorists if you want to see. Have you ever protested their bloody politics which make you live better? I have to say those are more bloody than the terrorists you mentioned. Why you ignore their terrorism? And lastly let me ask you a simple question, do you trust on liars?

That young guy as i said was searching identity, he found himself into an extremist group, they brainwashed him, then he fooled himself that he did this in the name of Allah which is a way to satisfy his soul and ego and which is not Quaranic. Do you think he is a normal person?

No, I don´t think any person who harms another human being in the name of religion is a normal person. Unfortunately there are too many brainwashed "abnormals" in this world (and I mean "everywhere").

As for the attacks you mentioned they should be scrutinized very well, they have many aspects rather than religion, i thought religion is just used to cover up some other issue and to show a target. By the way how you come to conclusion that they were not ignorant. In addition you should a little bit think about how the life of muslims on Europe, how they seen by locals, then you can have wider view of the muslim´s life in Europe.

I´ve read about their background, I think it was in a book by Sam Harris again ("Faith, Terrorism, and the End of Reason." - if I recall that´s the title, or something close to that. And no, the book is not about Islam, it´s about all religions.)

I get that religion is not the ONLY factor in many of the attacks, evils, etc. But I think it is as incorrect to say it´s not an issue. To deny its role in what´s happening is just that, a denial.

I don´t know about the life of Muslims in Europe, I do know about the life of Muslims in the USA, and the Muslism I know are not complaining, trust me .

What a reply. I have to say this is an expression of pertness. If you want to hold on to discussion, you better refrain these.  How do you compare the situation of your country with the countries like Sudan, Somali, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India and many others?

That was a reply to your statement "... people´s first aim is to look after their family, its their most important duty not like the west countries" where you implied if not directly stated that in the western countries people´s most iportant duty is not to look after their families. So don´t twist my words, I´m reacting to your contrasting people´s priorities, not quality of life.

Because west using them to describe Islam by putting all people in the same box. Thats my point. In addition have you ever heard of the term islamic-terrorism before the attacks you mentioned? 

I think you´re doing the same, putting all westerners in the same box.

And yes, I have heard of Islamic terrorism before. Let me give you some examples: Grand Mosque Seizure, ´85 TWA Hijacking, bombing of US Embassy in Beirut in ´83. I can compile a list for you if needed. It´s not a new issue that just came about in 2001. I think the world woke up to it then. And it´s not an issue limited to Islamic terrorists of course, there are plenty of nutcases elsewhere too. 

And let me remind you a reality, according to west, muslims were always enemy to them, who they fought in crusades and later who they colonized in 1700’s. 

I have a feeling the enemy-making is mutual.

And many muslims witnessed this hostility and today they see the wests double-faced politics and this increases the anger of muslims.

I´m not disputing that at all. I think you´re absolutely right here.

The idea of seeing muslims as possible victims is just alien to the western mind, it was easier to see them as a burden or an enemy. As is clearly expressed today’s irrational Islamophobia. In addition i think you should also ponder on in the same way what make those westerners kill innocents in various parts of world and their legalized terrorism. You say we didnt condemn the violence of Islamic states and all we say “its not related to Islam”, of course we condemn that violence but whatelse you want us to say if its related to anything rather than Islam. Putting blame on Islam gathers no solution, just the hatred grows more.

I´m not diputing that either. But you´re lumping all Muslims together, as a group. Many are victims, sure. And some are the radical, terrorist killers. It´s as black or white as  you´d like to see it. I think Islamophobia as any phobia is irrational. But I think ignoring the fact that radicals use religion to justify what they do, is as irrational.

This is your opinion,i dont think the same, but i respect. It changes according to what you understand by the word “religion” actually i used this word as synonym of word “din” which is a wrong usage by my side. According to me din is way of God and means faith. Its not an political agenda or ideology. And hate is such a strong word, i only hate whoever hates me. But i agree with you in to some extent, if religion becomes the manifestation of people’s ego, which allows the claim “im better than you” then for sure its root of all evil. So in my opinion, the only problem is human-being. Let me clarify, in my opinion all evil/satan stems from human-being which is an affect of human consciousness, not a cause. 

It might be a difference in semantics. By religion I do mean organized, institutionalized religion, with dogmas, agendas, etc. I don´t mean personal faith in "higher power". I couldn´t care less what people believe in as long as they don´t hurt/abuse other people because of it. So I think we agree here somewhat.

And actually its not the laws of religion to say kill but the people who are using religion for their own good and for their satisfaction of their own ego.  And no i dont think she did something to admire, spreading hatred is nothing admirable i guess, put aside her hatred and lies, again she had chosen to be clown in political games.

Sharia doesn´t say to kill those who blaspheme, are apostates, commit adultery, etc.?

Wow. That´s a new one on me. Why the stonings then? The death sentences? Fatwas?

You can criticize any religion by avoiding insults and by avoiding to humiliate people´s belief nothing wrong with it, i also do that. And my intention is not to piss anyone by doing this, i think this is one of our difference. Similar things i had said before, despite her lies, her story may be seen one of the extreme example of her culture.

What makes you say it is my intention to piss people off?

I don´t think her story is an extreme example, I think it´s pretty typical. Maybe not in Turkey, but in Somalia where she was born or other Islamic countries. I don´t think you can deny that many thousands of women are going thru what she suffered (genital mutiliation, physical abuse, forced marriage, etc.).

I mean you didnt touch on the evil acts and politics of imperialist west which make many people mainly riots, you just passed their terrorism. They are the biggest terrorists if you want to see. Have you ever protested their bloody politics which make you live better? I have to say those are more bloody than the terrorists you mentioned. Why you ignore their terrorism? And lastly let me ask you a simple question, do you trust on liars?

Oh, I didn´t think that was the topic. I do protest the violence and the politics, regardless if it´s from the west or east. And I don´t deny that there is much to be angry about when it comes to the politics, especially that of the USA. Again, that was not the topic, hence I didn´t include that. 

You remind me of the communist propaganda when I lived in Poland. They also referred to the west as "evil, imperialist west" . Do you also get the news reels that USA is responsible for any agricultural crop issues? lol And gosh, when I moved to the USA, surprise, surprise, those "evil imperialists" were just normal people like everybody else. To tell you the truth, most people I know don´t even bother thinking about those issues, they just go about their daily lives worrying about paying the mortgage and feeding their children, contrary to how much anti-Islam you´d like to make them.

I don´t trust liars in general. In the case of AHA, the lies mentioned is something she writes about, I think it´s different than lying and not admitting to it. If I was a political asylum seeker and the only chance for me to get the asylum was to lie, I´d do the same thing. She´s open about it in her book. I don´t know if she´s trustworthy or not. But she´s not the only woman who suffered things she suffered. So I believe that.

Anyway, this is getting to be really long exchange, I don´t know if people here will want to put up with us debating this point any longer.

Let´s just agree to disagree here

Normally I´m not into giving links but the biography of Mohammed Bouyeri is too long to type myself and has some ´interesting´ parts. So you can read all about his "I don’t feel your pain. I don’t have any sympathy for you. I can’t feel for you because I think you’re a non-believer" and "in the fight of the believers against the infidels violence is approved by the prophet Muhammad" at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Bouyeri

Everybody believes in something, what makes them evil, is themselves in my opinion.

Why i trust you,if i have relatives and friends who are living different parts of Europe. They were seen as potential terrorists nothing more nothing less.

Actually you are the one twisting, what do u think what i said by the phrase "situation"? At first you just quoted a part of paragraph and replied only that part not in the context. Of course you mean what i was saying, you just chose to give an reply of pertness.

No i think im criticizing the politics rather than people. If you say their politics is normal, then you are also in that box.

You are again twisting unfortunately. I of course mentioned the anti-islamic propogand and its frequency. Why do u think world never woke up the terrorism of west?

You should first know what sharia is related to, 90% sharia depends on traditions and hadiths(their authenticity is questionable) not Kuran, so sharia differs from country to country, these are traditions hich had been made holy by their followers. In my opinion Islam promotes democracy by saying "there is no compulsion in Din".

You said “somebody may get pissed, big deal”, thats why i said like this. f its not your intention, then dont mind. Yes maybe in Somalia, its typical according to their traditions but when you relate to this Islam and attack Islam by not knowing its teachings then for sure people has right to get offended by this lies.

Actually the topic was Ayaan Hirsi but you changed the topic, anyway you started this by asking why i think west create anti-islam propogand, and i explained it by emphasizing their politics so you just passed them. Means you agree i guess...

The thing you cant get, i only criticized their politics not the people. I have friends from west who are normal people. The difference is i dont turn blind eye on their terrorism.  Their hypocracy is very clear, we just witnessed this about Gaza, the silence of west and the declaration of politicians clearly explain this.  Same applies to east’s politicians.

The things she said she suffered, are mostly lies as i showed and she continue to lie after she got asylum. So it seems shes an all time liar

I mentioned this before, let me repeat, this is just lie to Muhammed, how could a prophet go against the teachings which was revealed to him by God?

 I don´t know, I don´t believe there is/are (a) God/gods. These words are Bouyeri´s not mine.

These words actually not his words, these are the words of so-called hadith writers who had done more harm to Islam rather than van Gogh or Salman Rushdie. And this clearly shows how he brainwashed...