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Muşambayla örtülü masadaki yuvarlak saatin
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| 10. |
09 May 2006 Tue 03:56 pm |
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Isthar,
Of course it was right of you to correct the original sentence.
In fact I was surprised that others translated incorrect sentences without warning the original poster about the mistakes.
I wish a few others had mentioned the poor Turkish. Can you also mention this in English please as I feel the OP doesn't believe me when I say these sentences are incorrectly build.
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| 11. |
09 May 2006 Tue 04:08 pm |
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Quoting erdinc: "Muşambayla örtülü masadaki yuvarlak saatin sesi deminki bağırışmaları kesinlikle yok ederce öne geçti."
This sentence is incorrect. The type of mistakes made in this sentence are interesting. I think it is not a native speaker who build them or maybe it was somebody who lived abroad too long. Maybe it was somebody who wasn't a native speaker but lived in Turkia for a long time.
All in all it would be interesting to know who build them and your previous sentence. They all have obvious mistakes and incorrect or unsuitable words but the word order is strong and the contents are typically Turkish and poetic.
'kesinlikle' means 'definately' but doesn't fit into this particular sentence. Instead kesinlikle the correct usage should be "kesin olarak" or "kesin bir şekilde".
'bağırışmaları' is misspelled and should be 'bağrışmaları'.
'yuvarlak saatin' sounds too strange since we don't say 'yuvarlak saat' (a round clock) but given the poetic nature of the phrase I think it is alright.
'yok ederce' is misspelled and should be 'yok edercesine'. We never say "yok ederce" or "ederce". There is no such thing as "ederce, yaparca, giderce" etc. On the other hand the correct spelling 'yok edercesine' doesn't fit into this sentence. Another word should be picked.
Here is your corrected sentence and its translation:
"Muşambayla örtülü masadaki yuvarlak saatin sesi deminki bağırışmaları kesin bir şekilde yok edercesine öne geçti."
" The round clock on the table covered with nylon forcefully surpassed the shoutings a min ago like it was wiping them out. " |
Dear friends,
Erdinç is right. Warning about our mistakes each other is always good and worthwhile.
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| 12. |
09 May 2006 Tue 05:07 pm |
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Sorry, that I have to say this, but all these sentences are NOT wrong! I am translating Furüzan,who got prices for her work from the Türk Dil Kurumu in 1975! But you are right it is strong, poetical and literature Turkish!! I can recommend reading her!
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| 13. |
09 May 2006 Tue 05:09 pm |
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Quoting mamamia: I can recommend reading her! |
Not for beginners i guess 
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| 14. |
09 May 2006 Tue 05:39 pm |
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Quoting mamamia: Sorry, that I have to say this, but all these sentences are NOT wrong! I am translating Furüzan,who got prices for her work from the Türk Dil Kurumu in 1975! But you are right it is strong, poetical and literature Turkish!! I can recommend reading her! |
If you are translating FÜRUZAN (not Furüzan) from English or the other foreign language..you can make the mistake. If you didnt read it in Turkish, please you dont insist on about the wrong sentence. We can use inverted sentence in Turkish but still on it must be meaningful and right.
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| 15. |
09 May 2006 Tue 07:23 pm |
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Oh, now it makes sense.
It looked incorrect to me because our language has changed too much in the last few decades.
Two months ago I wrote these lines:
Quote:
Even though the change from Ottoman Turkish to Modern Turkish progressed in its natural flow after the 1940's still it was very fast. This means we can't easly read a book that has been written in the 1940, 1950 or even 1960. Many books that are written before 1960 look like a foreign language now.
http://www.turkishclass.com/forumTitle_6_2955
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As you see yours is a living example of what I mentioned except that I wasn't so pesimistic to say that we wouldn't be able to read easly a book that was written in 1975.
The words sound strange not because she was using outdated words but because she used words that were still in experimental stage. Probably these were never used by others before. We understand almost all her lines but the words either are not part of today's living language or have changed their usage.
I can understand why she wa honored with an award. She must have invented many new words. Of course we needed all those new invented words to get of Ottoman words. Some of those words were accepted with time while some weren't.
In this case normally the works are revised. For instance all works of Shakespeare are revised.
Is it the novel "47'liler" that you are translating? Do you have the original "Bilgi Yayınevi" publication?
I think this is the revised version of that book:
http://www.ideefixe.com/kitap/tanim.asp?sid=FAQPCW6LEK3LE8HO7BBN
It says "Düzeltmen: Şamil Tekin". Of course it can be that even it was revised still it is not exactly in todays Turkish or maybe it is, I don't know. I haven't checked the original and the revision.
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| 16. |
10 May 2006 Wed 09:33 am |
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This becomes really interesting! I didn't know Turkish language was still changing that quick!! Of course every language undergoes changes and that is only natural, but so quick?!
I was mistaken the difficulties of translating this story for artistic literatural efforts of Füruzan, but now I understand it is another interesting phenomenon!
First it let me see what great impact Atatürks language revolt still has, but on the other I think it is not good if you after 30 years can only with great effort read your own writers anymore.
What leads me to the question: How is it possible that the books are revised?? Accept writers this changing of their used words?? Is language not a tool to express, but also to enforce their ideas?? For example I am translating, trying to!!, 'Benim Sinemalarim' (Yap Kredi Yayınları 672, Baski 4 Mayis 2004). How do I know of this is the original text or that it is revised?? What is revising beholding??
My last question is my concern about the connection between language and mind, thinking-processes. I always asked myself what does it do to the mind of the people of a country as a great genius as Atatürk makes so deep changes in language: Is people's thinking influenced by it: and how far? So as you were speaking of the sms-youth,this process happens of course in every country in the world! But as Turkish people are used to quick changes in there language and furthermore even the little childeren at four and five year are beginning learning english at school, what will happen to the language of this childeren?? Will they in forty years still be able to read their own ancestors? or will they only read Dann Brown?? P.S. Is 47'ler interesting?? Who are 47'ler??
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| 17. |
10 May 2006 Wed 05:41 pm |
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Quoting mamamia: How is it possible that the books are revised?? |
All of Shakespeare's works are revised. If a native speaker would read his original works there would be many words that you couldn't understand.
On the other hand the changes in our language are uncomparable to other languages. This is because we have not changed from old Turkish to new Turkish. We changed from Ottoman language to Turkish.
We also changed our alphabet:
Quoting erdinc:
I don't know if you could possibly understand how I feel when looking at these letters below now. The change was so dramatic, it was like a dream, like a journey from the darkness into the light.
ﺍ ﺀ ﺏ ﭖ ﺕ ﺙ ﺝ ﭺ ﺡ ﺥ ﺩ ﺫ ﺭ ﺯ ﮊ ﺱ ﺵ ﺹ ﺽ ﻁ ﻅ ﻉ ﻍ ﻑ ﻕ ﻙ ﮒ ﯓ ﻝ ﻡ ﻥ ﻭ ﻩ ﻻ ﻯ
a b c ç d e f g ğ h ı i j k l m n o ö p r s ş t u ü v y z
http://www.turkishclass.com/forumTitle_7_879
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Ottoman language was not Turkish. It was a mixture of three languages and a mixture of three grammars. Turkish existed thousands of years before Ottoman Empire was even there. The problem was that when we wanted to return to Turkish the language was behind on time, approximately 800 years behind of time.
Quoting erdinc:
Ottoman Language is an artificial langauge that was created with mixing three languages: Turkish, Persian and Arabic. Assuming ten people move to an island. Five of them are British, three of them are French and two of them are German. They are going to live there for the rest of their lives. Again assume with time their languages mix to each other and they create a new mixed language. This mixed language consists of 50% English, 30% French and 20% German. Let's call this language Bottoman language. So these ten inhabitans of the island talk in this Bottoman language for years. After 50 years the Germans and French move to another island. Now the remaining Brits start to think. "Should we keep to talk in Bottoman Language or should we return to our mother tongue English?" They decide to return to English but the problem is that they have forgotton English a lot. But there are many words that they remember. Now with the help of some suffixes they construct new words that sound English to them. I hope you could understand the story.
http://www.turkishclass.com/forumTitle_7_3327_2
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These days the Eastern effect on our langauge is relatively eased but this time the Western effect has become very strong:
Quoting erdinc:
English loanwords in the Turkish language:
Unfortunately the new Turkish generation which I call the 'msn generation' uses an extremely corrupted and annoying Turkish-English mixture. I think we are in a stage where English has become a serious thread for Turkish.
Every day you see a new English word used directly as it is in English. For long time we have heard things like "çok süper oldu" but these says we can even hear "perfect oldu". I find it so annoying when somebody talks like this.
http://www.turkishclass.com/forumTitle_6_2955
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Reforms in language are just a small part of Atatürk's reforms. Here is a short list of reforms:
http://www.turizm.gov.tr/EN/BelgeGoster.aspx?17A16AE30572D31371BE64510F6C8BC9BD084C76B72B55B7
Quoting mamamia: I am translating, trying to!!, 'Benim Sinemalarim' (Yapı Kredi Yayınları 672, Baski 4 Mayis 2004). How do I know of this is the original text or that it is revised?? |
Quoting mamamia:
My last question is my concern about the connection between language and mind, thinking-processes. I always asked myself what does it do to the mind of the people of a country as a great genius as Atatürk makes so deep changes in language: Is people's thinking influenced by it: and how far? So as you were speaking of the sms-youth,this process happens of course in every country in the world! But as Turkish people are used to quick changes in there language and furthermore even the little childeren at four and five year are beginning learning english at school, what will happen to the language of this childeren?? Will they in forty years still be able to read their own ancestors? or will they only read Dann Brown?? P.S. Is 47'ler interesting?? Who are 47'ler?? |
We cannot do analytical thinking (reasoning) without the language. In many ways the language is a space where thinking can progress and the space was just too thin to allow analytical thinking. The language that existed was created by religious motives, religious literature and religious philosophy.
Language also affects the way we understand our environment. Ottoman language was a language for slaves and owners. It completely lacked all the social terms citiens were supposed to use in a living adult community because there was no such adult community. When the Turkish Republic was announced in 1923 most citizens felt lost. They were searching for a place to belong for an owner to say what to do. They couldn't stand on they own feet. They simply couldn't understand who would govern them without the Sultan.
The biggest problem was individualism. Most ciziens were not seeing themselves as individuals. They were belonging to a certain communitys, families or clans.
In most cases these communities were defined by local authorities of Sultan and religious leaders. They had a role to play. If the local authorities told you yo grow potatoes this was your role in life.
When the Republic wiped out these powers and roles all that was left were grown up kids with shaky knees.
After so many years we still have problems with individualism being ill developed. Especially among females and among traditional Eastern communities this is the case.
There are even Turks with higher education who can not exist without being a part of a religious organisation. Among our regular members you can find them as well. Just have a look on the threads I quoted from. Sometimes on our boards they write meaningless and attacking argumenst against our Republic or Atatürk.
47'liler is a novel about 12 March 1971, the time when the army takes control in our country. It tells the story from the point of view of youths who were born in 1947.
http://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/12_Mart_Darbesi
http://sozluk.sourtimes.org/show.asp?t=kirkyedililer
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