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Have and need confusion.
1.       Starstuck
32 posts
 01 Jun 2010 Tue 06:34 pm

Hello. I´ve been looking at expressing nescessity. I understand the structure of Verb root + negitive + personal pronoun. However, when I look at examples, the placement of the negitive and the personal pronoun looks quite stange to me (I´m a fairly new learner). Here are some examples of Lazım and gerekiyor that I made up (by looking at other examples on the site and forums).

koşmam gerekiyor - I need to run
okulda gitmesi lazım - She has to go to school.
evlenmemiz gerkiyor - We need to marry.
yemen lazım - You have to eat.

I was wondering if these were correct.

However, if someone had told me to use this structure (verb root + negitive + personal pronoun), I would have written something like:

Koşmım or (not koşmam).
evlenmiz (not evlenmemiz). Where did the ´m´ come from?

Can anyone explain why they are not written the way I would have written them?

2.       si++
3785 posts
 01 Jun 2010 Tue 07:02 pm

 

Quoting Starstuck

Hello. I´ve been looking at expressing nescessity. I understand the structure of Verb root + negitive + personal pronoun. However, when I look at examples, the placement of the negitive and the personal pronoun looks quite stange to me (I´m a fairly new learner). Here are some examples of Lazım and gerekiyor that I made up (by looking at other examples on the site and forums).

koşmam gerekiyor - I need to run
okulda gitmesi lazım - She has to go to school.
evlenmemiz gerekiyor - We need to marry.
yemen lazım - You have to eat.

I was wondering if these were correct.

Those are correct (note one missing letter though). There is no negativity in those. You seem to be confused. -me-/-ma- is the noun form the verb (called infinitive in grammar terms). And you should analyse them as follows (only the first one as an example)

Koş- = run (verb stem)

Koş-ma = running

Koş-ma-m = my running

Koş-ma-m gerekiyor = my running is necessary (or I need to run for better English)



However, if someone had told me to use this structure (verb root + negitive + personal pronoun), I would have written something like:

Koşmım or (not koşmam).
evlenmiz (not evlenmemiz). Where did the ´m´ come from?

Can anyone explain why they are not written the way I would have written them?

 

But note the following:

 

Aorist tense (negative first person)

Koş- = run (verb stem)

Koş-ma- = not run (verb stem)

Koş-ma-m = I do not run

 

If we use the negative form of it (koş-ma- = not run) as in the above example:

Koş-ma- = not run (verb stem)

Koş-ma-ma = not running

Koş-ma-ma-m = my not running

Koş-ma-ma-m gerekiyor = my not running is necessary (or I don´t need to run or I should not run for better English)

 

3.       sonunda
5004 posts
 01 Jun 2010 Tue 07:15 pm

koşmam gerekiyor - I need to run
okulda gitmesi lazım - She has to go to school.
evlenmemiz gerkiyor - We need to marry.
yemen lazım - You have to eat.

 

These are examples of the short infinitive of the verb taking a personal ending.

The short infinitive is the verb minus the final k. (koşma from koşmak  evlenme from evlenmek yeme from yemek)

When you add the personal ending it gives the meaning ´my/your/his/our/their...... ...ing´

So in the first example 

koşma+1st personal ending=koşmam means ´my running+gerekiyor=my running is necessary=I need to run

3rd example

evlenme+miz=evlenmemiz=our marrying+gerekiyor=our marrying is necessary=we need to marry.

4th example

yeme+n=your eating+lazım=your eating is necessary=you need to eat.

 

Hope this helps



4.       sonunda
5004 posts
 01 Jun 2010 Tue 07:25 pm

Sorry si-I hadn´t seen your post.

5.       Starstuck
32 posts
 01 Jun 2010 Tue 08:22 pm

Thankyou very much. Both posts together gave me exactly what I was looking for. . Very much appriciated....

6.       Starstuck
32 posts
 02 Jun 2010 Wed 08:27 pm

Can also ask for an example with either lazım or gerekiyor... but with the personal prounoun of siz and onlar implied? thanks.

For example:
They need to run
You (plural) need to run ???

7.       si++
3785 posts
 03 Jun 2010 Thu 08:42 am

 

Quoting Starstuck

Can also ask for an example with either lazım or gerekiyor... but with the personal prounoun of siz and onlar implied? thanks.

For example:
They need to run
You (plural) need to run ???

 

You need to know personal possessive suffixes (those used for my, your, his, her, its, our, their)

 

Koş-ma-n gerekiyor/gerekir = You need to run

Koş-ma-nız gerekiyor/gerekir = You (pl) need to run

Koş-ma-ları gerekiyor/gerekir = They need to run

 

 

Here´s another way to look at it which may be more helpful to you.

 

It´s xxx for yyy to zzz = zzz-ma-yyy xxx:


It´s necessary for me  to go = git-me-m lazım/gerekli

It´s necessary for you to go = git-me-n lazım/gerekli

It´s necessary for him/her to go = git-me-si lazım/gerekli

It´s necessary for us to go = git-me-miz lazım/gerekli

It´s necessary for you to go = git-me-niz lazım/gerekli

It´s necessary for them to go = git-me-leri lazım/gerekli

 

 

It´s obligatory for me  to go = git-me-m zorunlu

It´s obligatory for you to go = git-me-n zorunlu

It´s obligatory for him/her to go = git-me-si zorunlu

It´s obligatory for us to go = git-me-miz zorunlu

It´s obligatory for you to go = git-me-niz zorunlu

It´s obligatory for them to go = git-me-leri zorunlu

 

 

It´s better for me  not  to be here = burada ol-ma -ma-m daha iyi

It´s better for you not  to be here = burada ol-ma-ma-n daha iyi

It´s better for him/her not  to be here = burada ol-ma-ma- daha iyi

It´s better for us not  to be here = burada ol-ma-ma-mız daha iyi

It´s better for you not  to be here = burada ol-ma-ma-nız daha iyi

It´s better for them not  to be here = burada ol-ma-ma-ları daha iyi

 



Edited (6/4/2010) by si++

8.       Starstuck
32 posts
 05 Jun 2010 Sat 12:13 am

Ah, niz & leri ! Thankyou very much.

9.       soulturtle
33 posts
 05 Jun 2010 Sat 06:50 am

Be careful as well, don´t confuse these with the negative command forms, which look exactly the same as the short infinitive without the possessive suffixes: 

 

 

Koş-ma - Don´t run

Git-me - Don´t go

Ağla-ma - Don´t cry (even if this all seems confusing! Wink)

 

 

 

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10.       MarioninTurkey
6124 posts
 08 Jun 2010 Tue 12:44 pm

 

Quoting Starstuck

okulda gitmesi lazım - She has to go to school.

 

 Okula gitmesi lazım

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