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Pamuk to pay compensation for Armenian, Kurdish remarks
(12 Messages in 2 pages - View all)
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1.       tunci
7149 posts
 28 Mar 2011 Mon 11:36 am

Pamuk to pay compensation for Armenian, Kurdish remarks

28 March 2011, Monday / TODAY´S ZAMAN, İSTANBUL

The Supreme Court of Appeals’ General Law Council has sentenced Orhan Pamuk, Turkey’s Nobel Prize-winning author, to pay TL 1,000 each in compensation to six people for remarks he made about the killing of Kurds and Armenians at the hands of Turks. The sentence came on Friday despite an earlier acquittal in a criminal court in İstanbul.
 

The compensation suit stemmed from an interview with the Swiss newspaper Tages Anzeiger in 2005 when Pamuk said “30,000 Kurds and a million Armenians were killed” in Turkey. Turkey denies that Armenians were systematically killed between 1915 and 1923, saying both sides suffered losses in internecine fighting during the breakup of the Ottoman Empire.

In May 2009, the Supreme Court of Appeals overturned a lower court decision that had dismissed claims of personal damages against Pamuk, paving the way for a new case. The claims came from lawyer Kemal Kerinçsiz, a suspect in the Ergenekon case, and family members of soldiers killed in Turkey’s fight against terrorism. Ergenekon is a clandestine criminal organization accused of working to overthrow the government.

The suit’s six plaintiffs originally sought TL 36,000 in damages from Pamuk.The appeals court decision has been met with heavy criticism by Turkey’s intellectuals, who accused the high judiciary of “acting in line with certain ideologies.” Oral Çalışlar, a journalist and writer, said Pamuk did not even use the word “Turk” in his interview with the Swiss magazine. “So why did they file a lawsuit against him? And what will happen if everyone decides to file a lawsuit against Pamuk? Will he pay compensation to all of them? It is hard to accept the fact that we are pushing an author who brought the Nobel Prize to Turkey into a corner. We cannot talk about the rule of law [in the decision against Pamuk],” he complained.

Professor Baskın Oran, an advocate of reconciliation between Turks and Armenians, drew a link between Pamuk’s sentence and a well-known anecdote in Turkey, the story of Hayri the Duck. In the story, Hayri has a nickname, “Duck,” which he dislikes. One day a man sitting next to Hayri in a coffeehouse looks out of the window and says, “I think it will be cloudy today.” Upon the man’s remarks, Hayri attacks the man and beats him. When his friends ask him why he beat the man, Hayri says: “When it is cloudy, it rains. Water is abundant when it rains. When water is abundant, lakes are filled with water. And ducks swim in lakes. And that guy called me a duck!” According to Oran, Pamuk is being punished for something he did not actually say.

According to Turkish Economic and Social Studies Foundation (TESEV) President Can Paker, the sentence imposed on Pamuk is a source of shame for Turkey. “People have the right to express their opinions freely. It is not a crime to do so unless it is done in a manner to foment hatred or violence in society. Pamuk expressed his opinion as a writer. For me, the court decision is totally wrong.”

 

 

 

 

2.       si++
3785 posts
 28 Mar 2011 Mon 11:53 am

His statement is imcomplete in many ways and even incorrect.

1. Nobody knows how many Armenians died (not necessarrily killed). His number is wrong and not based on something but just an utterence.

2. Speaking of Kurds/Armenians being killed, Turks also were killed, so where is his number for that?

3. As for 30,000 Kurds, many of them were killed by PKK. He sounds like he puts all the blame on Turks for that.

 

And yes that statement helped him being honoured with Nobel price. Swear at your people, seem like a nice guy to the Nobel committe and get the price. Very cheap you traitor!

Quoting tunci

The compensation suit stemmed from an interview with the Swiss newspaper Tages Anzeiger in 2005 when Pamuk said “30,000 Kurds and a million Armenians were killed” in Turkey. Turkey denies that Armenians were systematically killed between 1915 and 1923, saying both sides suffered losses in internecine fighting during the breakup of the Ottoman Empire.

tunci liked this message
3.       tunci
7149 posts
 28 Mar 2011 Mon 12:07 pm

 

Quoting si++

His statement is imcomplete in many ways and even incorrect.

1. Nobody knows how many Armenians died (not necessarrily killed). His number is wrong and not based on something but just an utterence.

2. Speaking of Kurds/Armenians being killed, Turks also were killed, so where is his number for that?

3. As for 30,000 Kurds, many of them were killed by PKK. He sounds like he puts all the blame on Turks for that.

 

And yes that statement helped him being honoured with Nobel price. Swear at your people, seem like a nice guy to the Nobel committe and get the price. Very cheap you traitor!

Quoting tunci

The compensation suit stemmed from an interview with the Swiss newspaper Tages Anzeiger in 2005 when Pamuk said “30,000 Kurds and a million Armenians were killed” in Turkey. Turkey denies that Armenians were systematically killed between 1915 and 1923, saying both sides suffered losses in internecine fighting during the breakup of the Ottoman Empire.

 

I agree, yes nobody knows the Number of people killed during that event. I also know that many turks were killed by armenian gangs . So there are two sides in this story. In Erzurum and other eastern cities we heard the tragic stories of killings Turkish villagers by the hand of Armenian gangs. So, We should look at the history with wearing an objective glasses, not just making up imaginary numbers.

And when it comes to the 30.000 Kurds, yes most of them were killed by PKK, and where did he get that number from ? Someone told him ? or he counted one by one ? or has he got a record of each person ? Yes, that was the argument he brought up to use in order to look symphatetic to so called "civiliazed world",so that he could win the Nobel Prize. In history, there were some people who insulted their people in order to win Nobel. So Orhan Pamuk is not the first one..

 

 

4.       barba_mama
1629 posts
 28 Mar 2011 Mon 12:10 pm

 

Quoting si++

His statement is imcomplete in many ways and even incorrect.

1. Nobody knows how many Armenians died (not necessarrily killed). His number is wrong and not based on something but just an utterence.

2. Speaking of Kurds/Armenians being killed, Turks also were killed, so where is his number for that?

3. As for 30,000 Kurds, many of them were killed by PKK. He sounds like he puts all the blame on Turks for that.

 

And yes that statement helped him being honoured with Nobel price. Swear at your people, seem like a nice guy to the Nobel committe and get the price. Very cheap you traitor!

Quoting tunci

The compensation suit stemmed from an interview with the Swiss newspaper Tages Anzeiger in 2005 when Pamuk said “30,000 Kurds and a million Armenians were killed” in Turkey. Turkey denies that Armenians were systematically killed between 1915 and 1923, saying both sides suffered losses in internecine fighting during the breakup of the Ottoman Empire.

 

 

That is just crazy. You can sue people for this? For not mentionig ALL people who died? When I talk about World War 2 I mention the dead Jews a lot. So all gypsies should sue me because I don´t mentoin they died too? What about the Russians, they lost the most people, so they should also sue me when I forget to mentoin them. That he didn´t mentoin Turkish people dying is a flawed logic for getting money from this man. It is a disgrace, and only money-hungry people would sue somebody in this way.

 

Secondly, he gave that interview as himself, not as an historical expert. If you ask me how many Jews died during World War 2 I might give you a wrong number as well. Or ask me how many Dutch people died through conflict throughout recent years... I don´t know... 1000? If that´s too much should some random person sue me as well?

 

Turks are too sensitive about this Armenian issue, and thus their logical judgement is clouded. For a normal random person this is okay. You can think what you want. But for a court to not follow freedom of speech, facts, and see that somebody who sues another person should have actually SUFFERED from that other person, is frightening. Where is Turkey going to... For you to say "he sounds like he puts the blame on Turks" is fine, but this is not a legally sound reason to make somebody pay damages.

 

And perhaps you should pick up a Pamuk book and read it, and figure out why he won it. The Turkish people care a LOT more about the whole Armenian thing than the Nobel commission does.

Aida krishan, Daydreamer and thehandsom liked this message
5.       si++
3785 posts
 28 Mar 2011 Mon 12:20 pm

He still has a positive balance. It´s a small amount to pay for him compared to the Nobel price he won. Good job.

 

If it was all about what he writes, there are better ones than him in this country to pick the price.

6.       tunci
7149 posts
 28 Mar 2011 Mon 12:29 pm

We should know the history first to understand it better,not just giving numbers..as I said, there is always two sides of the story. Todays Armenian society are just looking from one side, Both sides suffered, and let history experts clarify this tragic events.

The Ottoman Empire in the past and Turkey at present has always been an arena for which intrigues were incessantly designed. The colonialist superpowers wishing to eradicate the Ottoman Empire from the world by dividing it did not fail to use in their schemes also the Armenians who coexisted in peace with the Turks for so many centuries.

There are today just like in the past, several countries striving to secure themselves political and economic benefits at the expense of Armenian community. Monuments accusing Turks and Turkey of having committed genocide are being erected in some countries; decisions intending to recognise the so called genocide are brought into the parliamentary agenda in several countries and even voted for in some others. Issues that need to be left to historians are turned into means of self interest by the politicians.

The Armenians who were ousted from one place to the other, pushed into wars, and treated as third rate citizens throughout the history by the Romans, Persians and Byzantines. After the advent of Turks into Anatolia, they benefited from the just, humane, tolerant and unifying traditions and beliefs of their new neighbours. The period that lasted until the end of the nineteenth century when the apogee of these developments and relations was attained, was the golden age of Armenians. In fact, the Armenians were by far the greatest beneficiaries of the opportunities offered by the Ottoman Empire to all industrious, capable, honest and straightforward citizens of the non-Moslem communities. Being exempted from the military service and to a large extent from taxation, they had the opportunity to excel themselves in trade, agriculture, craftsmanship and administration and therefore were rightly called the “loyal nation” because of their loyalty and ability to interact with the Ottomans. There were so many Armenians who spoke Turkish, who even conducted their rites in this language , who rose to topmost public service posts such as the Ministries and Under-Secretariats of State for the Public Works, Navy, Foreign Affairs, Finance, Treasury, Posts and Telegraph and Minting. There were some who even wrote books in Turkish and foreign languages on the Problems of the Ottoman Empire .

With the start of the decline of the Ottoman Empire, the European powers began to intervene in its affairs and degeneration became evident in the peaceful Turkish-Armenian relations. Great effort was displayed by the instigators whom the Western powers planted into the Ottoman Empire under clerical guise, to create a schism between Turks and Armenians in the religious, cultural, commercial, political and social fields. Thus, bloody clashes arose, in which the blunt of pain was borne by the Turks, and thousands of Armenians and Turks lost their lives in the revolts that broke out in Eastern Anatolia and spread all the way to Istanbul.

Though there were many Armenians fighting in the Ottoman armies against the enemy or serving in the rear ranks during the World War I, a considerable number had sided with the foes on the battlefronts and launched massacres against the population without distinction of women, children and the aged. Their toll was hundreds of thousands of Moslems and ruin in Eastern Anatolia.

The measures adopted by the Ottoman Empire to stop this violence were presented to the rest of the world under a completely different light and the Armenians, misguided by the promises and instigation of the Western Powers started to undermine the country where they had led a privileged life more than a thousand years.

The Hinchak, Tashnak, Toward Armenia, Young Armenians, Union and Salvation, Ramgavar, Paramilitaries, Black Cross societies and Hinchak Revolutionary Committee, which were established out of Anatolia, formed organisations urging the people for an armed revolt. These activities were the bloody uprisings that cost thousands of Turkish and Armenian lives.

During World War I, the Ottoman Empire was fighting against Russian armies in Eastern Anatolia, where the Armenian revolt was at its peak; and also against Armenian forces which supported the Russians. On the other hand, behind the lines it had to continue to fight against Armenian guerrillas that were burning Turkish villages and towns and attacking military convoys and reinforcements. In spite of this violence, the Ottoman Empire tried to solve the Armenian problem for months by taking local measures. Meanwhile, an operation was made against the Armenian guerillas and 2345 rebels were arrested for high treason. When it became evident that the Armenian community was also in rebellion against the state, the Ottoman Empire proceeded with the last resort of replacing only those Armenians in the region who actively participated in the rebellion. With this measure, the Ottoman Empire also intended to save the lives of the Armenians who were living in a medium of civil war because Turks started to counter-attack the Armenians who had performed bloody atrocities against Turkish communities.

Today, Armenia and some states using Armenians for their economic and political benefits have launched a massive propaganda campaign to present the replacement decision and the 24 April arrests as genocide to the world public opinion.

At the end of the World War I, when the armies of Allied States occupied The Ottoman Empire and the British officials among them arrested 143 Ottoman political and military leaders and intellectuals for “having committed war crimes toward Armenians” and exiled them to Malta where a trial was launched. However, the massive scrutiny made on the Ottoman, British, American archives in order to find evidence to incriminate these 143 persons failed to produce even the least iota of proof against them. In the end, the detainees in Malta were released without trial and even any indictment in 1922.

The United States archives contain an interesting document sent to Lord Curzon on 13 July 1921 by Mr. R.C. Craigie, the British Ambassador in Washington. The message was as follows: “I regret to state that there is nothing that may be used as evidence against the Turkish detainees in Malta. There are no events that may constitute adequate proofs. The said reports do not appear to contain even circumstantial evidence that could be useful to reinforce the information held by His Majesty’s Government against the Turks.

On 29 July 1921, the legal advisers in London decided that the intended indictments drawn up against the persons on the British Foreign Ministry’s list were semi-political in nature and therefore these individuals should be treated separately from the Turks detained as criminals of war.

They also stated the following: “No statements were hitherto received from the witnesses to the effect that the indictments intended against the detainees are correct. Likewise it does not need to be restated that finding witnesses after so long a time is highly doubtful in a remote country like Armenia which is accessible only with great difficulties.” This statement was made also by none other than the legal advisers in London of His Majesty’s Government.

Yet, the efforts to smear the image of Turks with genocide claims did not come to an end as the British press published certain documents attempting to prove the existence of a massacre claimed to have been perpetrated by the Ottoman Empire while efforts were being made to start a lawsuit in Malta. It was stated that the documents were found by the British occupation forces in Syria, led by General Allenby. The inquiries subsequently made by the British Foreign Office revealed, however, that these documents were fakes prepared by the Armenian Nationalist Delegation in Paris and distributed to the Allied representatives.

The Armenian Diaspora, who left no stone unturned to keep the genocide claims on the agenda despite all these facts, resorted to terrorism in the end. The so-called Armenian issue, which started to attract the attention of the world and Turkish public opinion through the smearing campaign launched by the Armenians against Turkey after 1965, in the ‘70s turned into terrorist attacks directed against the Turkish representations abroad. In Santa Barbara on January 27, 1973, the first individual terrorist attack was launched by an aged Armenian named Gurgen (Karekin) Yanikian. He murdered Mehmet Baydur and Bahadir Demir, the Turkish Consul General and Vice Consul in Los Angeles, and these murders turned into an organised campaign after 1975. The attacks against Turkish embassies, officials and institutions abroad gradually intensified.

A major increase in the attacks was noted after 1979 when an internal unease started in Turkey. The Armenian terrorists staged a total of 110 attacks at 38 cities of 21 countries. 39 of these acts were committed by small arms, 70 of them were realised by bombs and one was an outright occupation. 42 Turkish diplomats and 4 foreigners were killed and 15 Turks and 66 foreigners were wounded in these incidents.

As these actions received a strong reaction from the world public opinion, the Armenian terrorist organisations changed their tactics in 1980 and began to co-operate with the PKK terrorist group which was pushed into the scene by the Eruh and ªemdinli attacks as the ASALA and Armenian operations were stopped. The documents and evidence from Beqaa and Zeli camps show that the PKK and ASALA militants were trained there together.

The success achieved by the Turkish security forces made the Armenian terrorism pursue the so called genocide claims through the Armenian Diaspora and attempt to make the world believe in the existence of such an event by inducing several parliaments to adopt resolutions and laws which recognise it.

The goal of these terrorists is to plant into minds of people the existence of a genocide, to force Turkey to recognise it, to receive indemnity from Turkey and, finally, to snatch from Turkey the land needed for realising the dream of Great Armenia

alameda liked this message
7.       si++
3785 posts
 28 Mar 2011 Mon 12:39 pm

We should be talking about how Turks and Armeninas lived in peace together for centuries, how they contributed to the empire they were living in, to the culture etc.

 

See for example this thread on how they contributed to Turkish language, music and theater.

8.       catwoman
8933 posts
 31 Mar 2011 Thu 05:27 am

nonsense and embarassment to Turkey..

Daydreamer, Elisabeth, thehandsom and si++ liked this message
9.       alameda
3499 posts
 03 Jul 2011 Sun 05:57 am

Excellent article Tunci, did you write it, or is it from some other place? The only problem with it is it´s long and it seems many don´t have the patience to read too many words, particularly when they go against already instilled prejudices. 

Quoting tunci

We should know the history first to understand it better,not just giving numbers..as I said, there is always two sides of the story. Todays Armenian society are just looking from one side, Both sides suffered, and let history experts clarify this tragic events......................




Edited (7/3/2011) by alameda [edit]

10.       si++
3785 posts
 03 Jul 2011 Sun 09:42 am

 

Quoting tunci

We should know the history first to understand it better,not just giving numbers..as I said, there is always two sides of the story. Todays Armenian society are just looking from one side, Both sides suffered, and let history experts clarify this tragic events.

 

Nowadays it´s decided by some pro-Armenian parliamentarians who have no idea of what Turks also suffered during those tradgic events as if they knew everything better than historians.

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