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Correlating Problems
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1.       Abla
3648 posts
 04 Sep 2011 Sun 05:53 pm

I often face the same problem when I try to make a Turkish sentence. Trying to place the modifier before the modified and the information of English subclauses before the main clause as I have been taught it sometimes makes me wonder if I should introduce a basic noun constituent, usually object, earlier than I planned

          Ucuz olduğu için elma aldım.

Is it correct that the possessive ending refers this way to the right, i.e. further in the sentence (olduğu > elma) if I like to keep the object of the main verb next to to predicate and as a part of the main clause? At least I can’t see any chance for misunderstanding. This possibility rises up if the predicate was in sg. 3rd:

         Tembel olduğu için çocuğu dövdü.

Who was lazy, the child or the beater? If I wanted to make it clear that the child was lazy, should the object in cases like this be taken to the left and then referred to with a personal pronoun in the main clause? It would make something like

         Çocuk tembel olduğu için onu dövdü.

The danger that I see here is that onu refers to a third person.

Or maybe kendi can be called for help:

         Kendisi tembel olduğu için çocuğu dövdü. (or is it going to make it worse&hellip

I hope the question makes sense.

2.       si++
3785 posts
 04 Sep 2011 Sun 06:27 pm

 

Quoting Abla

I often face the same problem when I try to make a Turkish sentence. Trying to place the modifier before the modified and the information of English subclauses before the main clause as I have been taught it sometimes makes me wonder if I should introduce a basic noun constituent, usually object, earlier than I planned

          Ucuz olduğu için elma aldım.

Here elma should be close to the V. Remember we had a discussion about it. Here "elma almak" is like a unit and should be broken. But with accusative:

Ucuz olduğu için elmayı aldım (I prefered the apple because it was cheap)

Elmayı ucuz olduğu için aldım (I prefered the apple because it was cheap)

The underlined parts are emphasized.

Is it correct that the possessive ending refers this way to the right, i.e. further in the sentence (olduğu > elma) if I like to keep the object of the main verb next to to predicate and as a part of the main clause? At least I can’t see any chance for misunderstanding. This possibility rises up if the predicate was in sg. 3rd:

         Tembel olduğu için çocuğu dövdü.

Yes without context it´s ambiguous:

He beat the child because he was lazy. (beater or beaten both is possible, hey wait isn´t it also ambiguous in English? you need a context otherwise you need to ask for clarification.)

Yes it´s because both the subject and object 3rd sg person. Otherwise it would be clear:

Tembel olduğun için çocuğu dövdün = You beat the child because you were lazy

Tembel olduğu için çocuğu dövdün = You beat the child because he was lazy


Who was lazy, the child or the beater? If I wanted to make it clear that the child was lazy, should the object in cases like this be taken to the left and then referred to with a personal pronoun in the main clause? It would make something like

         Çocuk tembel olduğu için onu dövdü.

The danger that I see here is that onu refers to a third person.

Or maybe kendi can be called for help:

         Kendisi tembel olduğu için çocuğu dövdü. (or is it going to make it worse&hellip

 OK. There is no ambiguity in that case (thanks to "kendisi")

I hope the question makes sense. I hope I´m clear.

 

 

3.       Abla
3648 posts
 04 Sep 2011 Sun 06:34 pm

Can´t kendisi refer to the subject, the beater?

4.       scalpel
1472 posts
 04 Sep 2011 Sun 11:16 pm

 

Quoting Abla

Can´t kendisi refer to the subject, the beater?

 

"Kendisi tembel olduğu için çocuğu dövdü"

Kendisi in this sentence refers to the subject. Here the beater is tembel.

"Tembel olduğu için çocuğu dövdü"

In this sentence the child is tembel.

 

Let´s simplify the sentence:

(O)--------çocuğu--------dövdü 

subject ---object---------verb

 

Tembel olduğu için is adverb complement (answers the question why/for what) and you can place it either before or after the object in this sentence:

Tembel olduğu için çocuğu dövdü

Çocuğu tembel olduğu için dövdü

 

Instead of "olduğu için" use "diye", it is easier and causes no ambiguity. 

 

Ucuz diye elma aldım.

Tembel diye çocuğu dövdü.

 

 

5.       Abla
3648 posts
 05 Sep 2011 Mon 10:46 am

This diye-structure is interesting. I didn´t pay attention to it but recently. It seems to me a handy way to lighten the stream of complicated participle structures which Turkish is quite well provided with.

I still didn´t really shake hands with kendi. It doesn´t (quite) fit any scheme that I have got used to in other languages. Is it that is generally refers to the subject of the main clause if there is one or is this a simplification? Usually it makes things more complicated to me. I guess it will just take some time and more material to get used to it.

Ambiguity has caused a lot of problems to me recently when trying to learn Turkish and I see now that it´s partly because the sentences which I look at are separated from their environment. Trying to make them waterproof in these circumstances may cause problems. Maybe I should be more worried about if they are grammatical or not.

It would be a shame not to learn with all this help that I´m getting. Thank you, si++, scalpel.



Edited (9/5/2011) by Abla

6.       si++
3785 posts
 05 Sep 2011 Mon 11:00 am

Turkish is ambiguous.

One source of confusion is because of pronomial-n.

Evini may be ev-i-n-i (house+3rd sg. poss+pro-n +acc) or ev-in-i (house + 2nd sg poss + acc)

Evine may be evi-n-e (house+3rd sg. poss+pro-n +dat) or evin-e (house + 2nd sg poss + dat)

 

Adjective may be used or nouns or adverbs sometimes may be another source of confusion.

 

Consider the following sentence:

Küçük kırmızı topa vurdu.

 

With no punctuation and context it is 3 way ambiguous (Can you see how?)

7.       Abla
3648 posts
 05 Sep 2011 Mon 11:05 am

Is it that the subject can be either sg 3rd, küçük or küçük kırmızı?

8.       si++
3785 posts
 05 Sep 2011 Mon 11:19 am

 

Quoting Abla

Is it that the subject can be either sg 3rd, küçük or küçük kırmızı?

 

yes and one more

Küçük, kırmızı topa vurdu. (The little one hit the red ball.)

Küçük kırmızı, topa vurdu. (The little red (one) hit the ball.)

Küçük kırmızı topa vurdu. (He hit the little red ball.)

9.       Abla
3648 posts
 05 Sep 2011 Mon 11:29 am

See, the problem is that you don´t mark everything. If you conjugated your adjectives also like they do in certain languages no such problems would occur.



Edited (9/5/2011) by Abla [Sorry, wrong word.]

10.       si++
3785 posts
 05 Sep 2011 Mon 11:37 am

You mean like in Italian (or Russian/etc.) where they modify adjectives for number and gender? That is another detail which complicates the matters and makes the things difficult to learn IMHO. Turkish evolved for simplicity over centuries.

 

In reality this is no big problem for us. You have always a context and can see the real meaning.

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