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The financing of terrorism and the Kurdish issue
(12 Messages in 2 pages - View all)
[1] 2
1.       si++
3785 posts
 07 Feb 2013 Thu 10:29 am

The Turkish Parliament started debating a draft law to introduce new measures on the financing of terrorism yesterday, Feb. 6. The draft had been submitted to parliamentary commissions over 2011, but despite Turkey already being criticized for being late in 2011 it still took two years under international pressure for the draft to finally reach the general assembly.

The International Convention for the Suppression of the Financing of Terrorism was announced in December 1999, following U.N. Security Council resolution 1267 in October of the same year, which came due to the rising threat from radical armed groups even before the 9/11 attacks by al-Qaeda in 2001. Turkey, which was under relative relaxation with the arrest of Abdullah Öcalan, the leader of the outlawed Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK) in February 1999 and distracted by the worst financial crisis of its history in early 2001, could have approved the convention in March 2002 and put it into effect the next month. But the implementation law regarding the move took a bit longer than that, since we are in 2013 now.

 

Perhaps that is the reason why the staunchest supporter of adopting the law in the ruling Justice and Development Party (AK Parti) government is Ali Babacan, Prime Minister Tayyip Erdoğan’s deputy in charge of the economy. Being the silent master of the Turkish economy, which managed to survive the economic crisis that has been shaking Europe for a number of years, Babacan is in full knowledge of the importance of this law in Western financial circles.

Then why has Erdoğan been reluctant so far, despite Turkey itself suffering from being unable to stop the financial sources (allegedly with some involvement of drug trafficking) of the PKK and smaller armed organizations? The answer partly lies in Turkey’s chronic Kurdish problem.

The suppression of the financing of terrorism law faces an individual rights problem all around the world; so it is natural that people, especially investors, might have some legitimate concerns regarding privacy. But Kurdish origin investors in Turkey have an additional and never openly mentioned problem. In the east and southeast, where the PKK is influential, it is practically impossible for any investor to do business without paying some sort of a protection money, or some sort of an illegal taxation, by the PKK. Otherwise, the cost might not be limited to fining by the Finance Ministry. This also applies to Kurdish investors in the big cities of Western Turkey like Istanbul, İzmir, or Antalya. They are afraid that if this law passes, their assets might be frozen or confiscated. That is why not only the Kurdish problem focused Peace and Democracy (BDP) members in Parliament - but also Kurdish origin deputies within the AK Parti - are not very comfortable with the law.

 

From: here

2.       suzanne2013
30 posts
 07 Feb 2013 Thu 12:48 pm

Why do you write ´chronic kurdish problem´. They are human beings not some sort of disease or infestation.

Why would PKK force people to pay money? I dont live there but have family in the East and have not heard of this happening. For sure there are many supporters there but they finance the PKK through donations or peer pressure from their friends and neighbors. Even if there was a mini mafia state operating why would it bother Erdoğan that some Kurdish investors would lose out if the treaty was signed?

 If a country signs a convention it does not mean they will follow it sometimes signing a treaty is simply paying lipservice to a public issue. There are no international institutions that will enforce these conventions. There might be other reasons as to  hy Erdoğan has been reluctant to sign the treaty.

3.       si++
3785 posts
 07 Feb 2013 Thu 01:06 pm

 

Quoting suzanne2013

Why do you write ´chronic kurdish problem´. They are human beings not some sort of disease or infestation.

chronic is a modifier for the problem not the people. That problem is sort of disease for us. There is a metaphor in it.

Why would PKK force people to pay money? To support their terrorist acts. I dont live there but have family in the East and have not heard of this happening. So? Does it mean it´s not happening. For sure there are many supporters there but they finance the PKK through donations or peer pressure from their friends and neighbors. Even if there was a mini mafia state operating why would it bother Erdoğan that some Kurdish investors would lose out if the treaty was signed?

 If a country signs a convention it does not mean they will follow it sometimes signing a treaty is simply paying lipservice to a public issue. There are no international institutions that will enforce these conventions. There might be other reasons as to  hy Erdoğan has been reluctant to sign the treaty. Maybe but I cannot think of any. Would you list some please.

 

 

4.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 07 Feb 2013 Thu 01:29 pm

 

Quoting suzanne2013

Why do you write ´chronic kurdish problem´. They are human beings not some sort of disease or infestation.

Why would PKK force people to pay money? I dont live there but have family in the East and have not heard of this happening. For sure there are many supporters there but they finance the PKK through donations or peer pressure from their friends and neighbors. Even if there was a mini mafia state operating why would it bother Erdoğan that some Kurdish investors would lose out if the treaty was signed?

 If a country signs a convention it does not mean they will follow it sometimes signing a treaty is simply paying lipservice to a public issue. There are no international institutions that will enforce these conventions. There might be other reasons as to  hy Erdoğan has been reluctant to sign the treaty.

 

Some of them are really infested, not all.

PKK force them to pay for the cause..apart from dealing drugs and trafficing aliens.

The Kurds who do not like PKK´s illegal acrivities are not just Kurdish investors, they are also Turkish citizens. That is where Erdoğan comes in.

 

5.       suzanne2013
30 posts
 07 Feb 2013 Thu 03:24 pm

First the term chronic kurdish problem suggests that all kurds support PKK. This is not true.

Not every Kurd sympathies lies with  their policies. Just like not every muslim is an Alqaeda supporter. These are just media stereotypes which are taken advantage by our leaders to instill fear and thus promote their interests and aquire political mandate.

 

Now to the discussion:

 

So your saying that Erdoğan reluctance comes from his interest in keeping Kurdish investors assets safe? These are two reasons I think he’s been reluctant;

1. It will not stop the running of PKK

2. The laws concern limiting the privacy of all Turkish citizens.

Policing peoples financial affairs is incompatible with the tenets of capitalist democracies. To be effective in containing illegal financing it should affect only the offenders and be worded in such a way that it is effective while still democratic. This is a difficult if not an impossible task. Even if parliament passes legislation and the laws are effective there will still be enough monetary support for the PKK to continue their activities. This is because there are enough sympathisers. The solution to this is not to keep restricting rights but to give PKK supporters no reason to support them. By calling them a problem or infestation only makes the issue worse. You can drive them underground but as long as the issues and problems which make Kurds feel unwanted and suppressed are not addressed the PKK will continue to thrive as rebels with causes. To illustrate my grandmother lives near the Northern Iraq mountains where many PKKs have been living since the late 1980s. I have seen them myself on many trips but hardly any Iraqi Kurds run off to join or even sympathise with them. Even at the height of Saddam Hussein’s terror they did not do so. In fact they call PKK members who have come down from the mountains and marry and settle down as ´reformed´.

Turkey knows what she’s doing she doesn’t need some international convention to tell her how to control terrorist financial methods. The PKK rely more on donations than their illegal tax. As long as they have supporters they will thrive. Cutting of a finger does not cause death of a person. In fact it might make one more resilient and determined.

hagy liked this message
6.       si++
3785 posts
 07 Feb 2013 Thu 07:05 pm

 

Quoting suzanne2013

First the term chronic kurdish problem suggests that all kurds support PKK. How´s that? I cannot see something like that. The term is a literal translation from Turkish "Kürt sorunu". This is not true. Right! I mean not all the Kurds support them.


Not every Kurd sympathies lies with  their policies. Just like not every muslim is an Alqaeda supporter. These are just media stereotypes which are taken advantage by our leaders to instill fear and thus promote their interests and aquire political mandate.

 

Now to the discussion:

 

So your saying (I´m not saying it. I have provided the source.) that Erdoğan reluctance comes from his interest in keeping Kurdish investors assets safe? These are two reasons I think he’s been reluctant;

1. It will not stop the running of PKK Maybe. But their income will likely be lower.

2. The laws concern limiting the privacy of all Turkish citizens. If you are not doings thing illegally and off the record, all your financial details are known by the state at the moment.

Policing peoples financial affairs is incompatible with the tenets of capitalist democracies. To be effective in containing illegal financing it should affect only the offenders and be worded in such a way that it is effective while still democratic. This is a difficult if not an impossible task. Even if parliament passes legislation and the laws are effective there will still be enough monetary support for the PKK to continue their activities. This is because there are enough sympathisers. The solution to this is not to keep restricting rights but to give PKK supporters no reason to support them. By calling them a problem or infestation only makes the issue worse. You can drive them underground but as long as the issues and problems which make Kurds feel unwanted and suppressed are not addressed the PKK will continue to thrive as rebels with causes. To illustrate my grandmother lives near the Northern Iraq mountains where many PKKs have been living since the late 1980s. I have seen them myself on many trips but hardly any Iraqi Kurds run off to join or even sympathise with them. Even at the height of Saddam Hussein’s terror they did not do so. In fact they call PKK members who have come down from the mountains and marry and settle down as ´reformed´.

Turkey knows what she’s doing she doesn’t need some international convention to tell her how to control terrorist financial methods. The PKK rely more on donations (I don´t think so. donations can only be a small portion of their financial income.  ) than their illegal tax. As long as they have supporters they will thrive. Cutting of a finger does not cause death of a person. In fact it might make one more resilient and determined.

 

 

7.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 08 Feb 2013 Fri 12:43 am

 

Quoting suzanne2013

Why do you write ´chronic kurdish problem´. They are human beings not some sort of disease or infestation.

Why would PKK force people to pay money? I dont live there but have family in the East and have not heard of this happening. For sure there are many supporters there but they finance the PKK through donations or peer pressure from their friends and neighbors. Even if there was a mini mafia state operating why would it bother Erdoğan that some Kurdish investors would lose out if the treaty was signed?

 If a country signs a convention it does not mean they will follow it sometimes signing a treaty is simply paying lipservice to a public issue. There are no international institutions that will enforce these conventions. There might be other reasons as to  hy Erdoğan has been reluctant to sign the treaty.

 

+1

When they say "PKK force people to pay money", what they mean is something like  ´if we all say it,  others might believe it too´. 

 



Edited (2/8/2013) by thehandsom
Edited (2/8/2013) by thehandsom

8.       si++
3785 posts
 08 Feb 2013 Fri 09:45 am

The large part of PKK’s financing (about 70%) comes from its activities in Europe. Besides, the so-called “taxation” of smugglers in neighboring countries, especially northern part of Iraq and Iranian border should be mentioned. Extortion and fees from sympathizers in Turkey are also another major source of income for PKK.

One issue that should be mentioned here is PKK’s connection with drug trafficking. On May 30, 2008 and on April 20, 2011, The US Secretary of Treasury decided to freeze the assets and bank accounts of the terrorist organization’s lead staff, Murat Karayılan, Ali Rıza Altun, Zübeyir Aydar, Cemil Bayık, Sabri Ok, Adem Uzun, Duran Kalkan and Remzi Kartal due to the concrete indications of involvement in drug trafficking.

PKK gets into a variety of fields to finance its activities, which associates the close connection with terrorism and organized criminality. As mentioned above, these include drug trafficking, migrant smuggling, human trafficking, and other kinds of smuggling (commodity, fuel, cigarettes etc), as well as money extortion and racketeering.

The money collected in Europe is usually illegally transferred to PKK by couriers. In cases of small amounts, money is transferred via transfer companies or wired to individual accounts.

 

Source: here

9.       elifce
33 posts
 09 Feb 2013 Sat 12:47 am

 

Quoting suzanne2013

Why do you write ´chronic kurdish problem´. They are human beings not some sort of disease or infestation.

Why would PKK force people to pay money? I dont live there but have family in the East and have not heard of this happening. For sure there are many supporters there but they finance the PKK through donations or peer pressure from their friends and neighbors. Even if there was a mini mafia state operating why would it bother Erdoğan that some Kurdish investors would lose out if the treaty was signed?

 If a country signs a convention it does not mean they will follow it sometimes signing a treaty is simply paying lipservice to a public issue. There are no international institutions that will enforce these conventions. There might be other reasons as to  hy Erdoğan has been reluctant to sign the treaty.

 

Great post! People here should be respectful of other ethnicities living in Turkey

10.       gokuyum
5050 posts
 09 Feb 2013 Sat 12:50 am

 

Quoting elifce

 

 

Great post! People here should be respectful of other ethnicities living in Turkey

Being respectful and you? What kind of an equation is this? {#emotions_dlg.laugh_at}

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