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-esi suffix
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| 10. |
19 Jul 2006 Wed 03:19 pm |
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When the Arabic and Farsian started changing our there was resistance among Turkish artists and authors.
They rejected using Ottoman grammar rules and Ottoman language patterns. There were some new conjunctions that made sentences longer.
İntellectuals said they would keep using pure Turkish. With time Ottoman language spread over.
Only after centuries when we have quit using Ottoman language and when we returned to Turkish we were able to communicate with other Turkish countries again.
Todays Turks can not understand the Ottoman Turkish that was used between 1500-1900. Since we have quit using Ottoman Turkish and since we have returned to Turkish again we can understand some of the older texts.
First Turkish printed materials that were found refer to the 8th century. Here is a text that was found shaped on a stone that you see on the picture. It was written in year 732. Believe me we can understand this text better than anything from late Ottoman langauge.
http://www.ulkuocaklari.org.tr/kulturedebiyat/edebiyat/gokturkkitabeleri.htm
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| 11. |
19 Jul 2006 Wed 03:44 pm |
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As i understood it,and i'm willing to be corrected on this,in the past prior to Ataturks language reform,The Turks actually spoke the modern Turkish that we use today,but the written word was a mixture of Arabic,Persian,Turkish.It appears what has happened is the Arabic,Persian grammer parts have been lifted and the Turkish cell of the three languages has been developed,coupled with Ataturks language reform it has now established itself into what is today 'Modern Turkish'.I think Erdic's claim that the ruling and Elite classes did in fact use a different Turkish(a link to substantiate this would have been nice)to others is correct,but only when carrying out official duty or works pertaining to the running of the Ottoman state,and The Arts etc,it appears,but it also seems that the Turkish Elite 'ruling Classes'could have in fact used the modern day Turkish we use today,in the least at a social level.The conflicting views on this subject are many,why is history never easy?
Anyway i've included a link or two,it does make fascinating reading.
http://www.turkishnews.com/DiscoverTurkey/culture/language/
http://countrystudies.us/turkey/25.htm
this link is very informative,
http://www.turkishembassy.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=26&Itemid=86
and one in Turkish;
http://www.dallog.com/tdve/turkdili.htm
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| 12. |
19 Jul 2006 Wed 03:55 pm |
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To start with the vocabulary wasn't different from the vocabulary we use in Turkish today.For exampe: the words, "kitap","kalem","masa","yohurt","ayran","gül"(there are, of course, plenty of other words) we use in Turkish today and which were used in Ottaman time.
We don't just use some vocabulary which was used then in Turkish today on account of the uninterferenced natural selection of the language within its own body, the language has elimanated some words or dropped them in use itself, and also because of the unfortunate frame of mind I have mentioned above.
The Turkish language in Ottaman time falls into the areas,the middle area (from the 10th century to the 15th century)and the new area (from the 15the to the 20the century)of the Turkish language.The Turkish language we use today is the area of modern Turkish. The difficulty in Ottaman Turkish is reading because of the alphabet and its use in written form. And that is the reason for why it is called Ottaman today. The Ottaman didn't call the language as Ottaman
The pronuncitions of some words and some structures, of course,changed during the transition periods of the areas and the change continues in time as it happens in other langugages. For example: the word "alma" changed to "elma"(apple)and "ana" changed to "anne" (mother)
In English there wasn't the verb "to be" and the use of "s" with the singular subjects in the simple present tense in the past in the English language. And also when you look up into any advanced English dictionary you come across with lots of old dated uses and vocabulary. That happens within the natural cycle of any language.
In addition the uses of the tenses in the Turkish language in the Ottaman time were not totally different from today's uses. The present continuous tense which was used then is the present continous tense we use today.
It would be wrong to deny the fact that there might be some differences, some old uses or new uses, compatible with the natural cyle of the language.
On the other hand it would be wrong to say that the language which was used in the Ottaman time was completely different from the one we use today.
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| 13. |
19 Jul 2006 Wed 04:23 pm |
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Hi Adei,
What you have said below is correct.
"the ruling and Elite classes did in fact use a different Turkish(a link to substantiate this would have been nice)to others is correct,but only when carrying out official duty or works pertaining to the running of the Ottoman state,and The Arts etc,it appears,but it also seems that the Turkish Elite 'ruling Classes'could have in fact used the modern day Turkish we use today,in the least at a social level."
What I am saying is that the difference in use, you have said above, happened and there is nothing wrong with it.
It didn't happen in Ottaman time only. It happened in the time of Kingdom in Britian. Until the Edvard II or III no British king speaking English came to the throne.
The English language was the language of the ordinary people.
Aren't there such differences today between the official languages of goverments,for example; the language in laws, and the language people speak.
What I am opposing is the frame of mind which interferes the natural cyle of the langugage sitting at the table. That's why the most advanced dictionary in Turkish which has been compiled so far has about 150 thousand entries. However
the most advanced English dictionary has about 600 thousand entries. And that's why some people neither can understand what he reads nor express himself. What the pittiest thing of all is that such people are not aware of the sitution in which they are and how intimigated ignorant they are and try to interfere the language so as to which words to be used, which ones to be eliminated form the langugage. They say that they do this on behalf of forming a "pure" Turkish.
Have you ever heard anything as pure English, pure Chinise, pure French... Some primitive tribes in the African jungle might have their own pure language.That's possible if you live in a tribe in jungles, but impossible if you live in a modern world and interact with other cultures one way or an other. Such an interaction has been happened since the middle ages and even before
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| 14. |
19 Jul 2006 Wed 04:40 pm |
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Academically the Ottoman language is now not seen as Turkish. I agree that the Ottomans didn't call it as Ottoman langauge at their time. They said it was Turkish. But now authorities see it as an independent langauge because unique grammar rules.
It is seen as an artificial mixture of three languages which are fifty percent Turkish, thirty percent Arabic and twenty percent Farsian.
Because it was half Turkish it is only natural that Ottoman language had many things in common. But there were many differences.
Ottoman language had many letters that were not existing in Turkish. It is not only the alphabet that was different but letters, sounds, vocabulary, tenses, negatives, conjugations were different. In short the a whole grammar was different.
Even after the langauge reform when we returned to Turkish there were too many problems that couldn't be solved in an instant. The language reform is unfortunately not understood by many Turks. It was more than changing the alphabet. It was more than replacing Arabic words. It was return to pure Turkish.
Because both vocabulary and grammar was mixed the Ottoman Turkish was uniquie and different than any of those three languages. Because it had a unique vocabulary and grammar the language qualifies to be called with its own name.
In fact all academical circles in Turkia see Ottoman Turkish something different than Turkish. As I said we call this language Osmanlıca.
In short:
"Ottoman Turkish was an artificial langauge that was created mixing up the three languages, Turkish, Arabic and Farsian."
Ottoman Empire collapsed and we have stopped using Ottoman language but returned to Turkish.
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| 15. |
19 Jul 2006 Wed 04:42 pm |
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Quoting qdemir: And that's why some people neither can understand what he reads nor express himself. What the pittiest thing of all is that such people are not aware of the sitution in which they are and how intimigated ignorant they are and try to interfere the language so as to which words to be used, which ones to be eliminated form the langugage. They say that they do this on behalf of forming a "pure" Turkish. |
This topic is now closed. Write more carefully. I think everybody sees who the some people are who don't understand someting. It isn't nice to make this a personal issue by adding hidden attacks behind the lines.
We have had conflicts with Ottoman admirers in the past. They are permanent opponents of modern Turkia, Turkish language, language reform and Atatürk.
I don't mind having intellectual argumenst and it is quite fun when people are well equipped though it is difficult when they are not or when they are obsessive.
Some poeple are so obsessive they can't handle it when I write something about Ottoman language. They get crazy.
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