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Resemble Tenses
(20 Messages in 2 pages - View all)
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10.       CANLI
5084 posts
 26 Aug 2006 Sat 12:42 pm

İ cann't understand well when we use Belirsiz Geçmiş Zaman 'Reported past'(mIş ) and Geniş Zaman 'Aorist' (r) Türkçede

İ thought Geniş Zaman is like present simple in English,we use is when we want to imply a fact is happening

But when i use it in translation and ask for correction,mostly
İ find using the Geniş Zaman wasn't the right thing

So when do we use both tenses ?

Tşkler

11.       erdinc
2151 posts
 26 Aug 2006 Sat 02:51 pm

The verb conjugations bod posted are correct.

"Ahmet çok yemek yemiş."
In this sentence "yemek yemiş" is a verb conjugation in reported past tense of yemek yemek (to eat).

Again as bod said, the participles yemiş, yiyen, yiyecek, and yediğim, yiyeceğim etc are different. They are not verb conjugations but they are verbal adjectives or verbal adverbs. The problem is not all their translations are very good. Some of the translations of participle are alright.
On winmekmak, on participle page, type yemek and choose -dik or -ecek participle. You will see these:

ye-diğ-im
the x I eat
the x I have eaten
the x I ate
my eating
ye-diğ-in
the x you eat
the x you have eaten
the x you eat
your eating
ye-diğ-i
the x he/she/it eat
the x he/she/it has eaten
the x he/she/it ate
his/her/its eating

ye-diğ-imiz
ye-diğ-iniz
ye-dik-leri
--------------------------------------------
yi-y-eceğ-im
the x I will eat
yi-y-eceğ-in
the x you will eat
yi-y-eceğ-i
the x he/she/it will eat
yi-y-eceğ-imiz
yi-y-eceğ-iniz
yi-y-ecek-leri
---------------------------------------------

Examples with -dik participle:
Çok yemek yediği zaman uykusu geliyor.

"Çok yemek yediği zaman" in this sentence is an adverbial clause of time. It means "when he eats too much".

Smillarly we can say:

"Çok yemek yediğim zaman uykum geliyor."
"When I eat to much I become sleepy."

Examples with -ecek participle:
"Onların yiyeceği yemeği ben pişireceğim."
"I will cook the meal that they will eat."

"Onların yiyeceği yemeği" is a noun clause in this sentence and means "the meal that they will eat".

Examples with -miş participle:

"Burada dayak yemiş bir adam var."
"There is a man here who is beaten".

"dayak yemiş bir adam" is a noun clause and means "a man who is beaten".
"Dayak yemiş" is a verbal adjective that modifies the noun adam.

"Bahçede yanmış bir ağaç var."
"There is a burned tree in the garden".

"yanmış bir ağaç" : "a burned tree".

The translations for -miş and -en participles in winmekmak should have followed the same pattern in -dik and -ecek participles. If I had updated the participle section I would do it this way:

yemiş : the x that has eaten
olmuş : the x that has happened
gitmiş : the x that has gone

yiyen : the x that eats
olan : the x that happens
giden : the x that goes

12.       CANLI
5084 posts
 26 Aug 2006 Sat 03:16 pm

Hello Erdinç,

When i wrote yemek and pressed on the miş and -en participles

İt became as follow

yemiş .....who ate,who has eaten
yemişler

yeyin....who eats,who has eaten,who ate
yeyenler

First,
There is some similarity in meaning between them,then we can use en participles in same place as we use miş participles ?

Second,
Those came only with O and Onlar,cann't we use miş and -en participles with Ben,Sen,Biz,Siz ?

Çok Tşk


13.       erdinc
2151 posts
 26 Aug 2006 Sat 10:55 pm

Quoting CANLI:

Hello Erdinç,
When i wrote yemek and pressed on the miş and -en participles
İt became as follow
yemiş .....who ate,who has eaten
yemişler
yeyin....who eats,who has eaten,who ate
yeyenler
First,
There is some similarity in meaning between them,then we can use en participles in same place as we use miş participles ?



The difference between the two is that the -miş participle is past tense participle and the -en participle is a present tense participle.

Quote:

Second,
Those came only with O and Onlar,cann't we use miş and -en participles with Ben,Sen,Biz,Siz ?
Çok Tşk



"yemiş, yemişler
yiyem, yiyenler"

The -miş participles have nothing to do with the verb conjugation -miş even though they look exactly the same.

All these are adjectives just like güzel (beautiful) and güzeller (the beautiful ones) and fakir (poor) , fakirler (the poor ones). The difference is that these advectives are derived from verbs. Therefore we call them verbal adjectives or participles which is the same thing.

Here are examples:

1. "small beans"
2. "baked beans"
1. "blue house"
2. "burned house"

You see four "adjective + noun" combinations. Number 1's have a regular adjective like small, blue and number 2's have a verbal adjective like baked, burned. These verbal adjectives baked, burned etc. are also called participles. For instance baked and burned are past tense participles.

We have the exactly same thing in Turkish. Instead the -ed we have the -miş suffix for past tense participles. These are past tense participles:

haşlanmış
yanmış

These below are "adjective + noun" combinations (We call them adjective modifications) with verbal adjectives (participles):

"haşlanmış fasülye"
"yanmış ev"

haşlanmış (baked) is an adjective and yanmış (burned) is another adjective. They are derived from the verbs haşlanmak and yanmak and therefore they are verbal adjectives (participles).

Like all adjectives verbal adjectives can take the plural suffix in Turkish. Therefore those examples you gave are not conjugations of 'o' and 'onlar'. You are mixing them with the verb conjugations.

14.       aslan2
507 posts
 27 Aug 2006 Sun 09:34 am

Quoting CANLI:

İ cann't understand well when we use Belirsiz Geçmiş Zaman 'Reported past'(mIş ) and Geniş Zaman 'Aorist' (r) Türkçede

İ thought Geniş Zaman is like present simple in English,we use is when we want to imply a fact is happening

But when i use it in translation and ask for correction,mostly
İ find using the Geniş Zaman wasn't the right thing

So when do we use both tenses ?

Tşkler


The fact is 'Belirsiz geçmiş zaman' and 'Geniş zaman' are used for many things so I can see your problem.

Belirsiz means uncertain, indefinite so there is something uncertain about 'Belirsiz geçmiş zaman'

For the past we use -di when there is no uncertainity. It may be equal to past tense or present perfect tense in English.

Dün geldi -- She came here yesterday
Şimdi geldi -- She has just come

We call it past if the verb has been completed no matter when it is completed (1 second ago or 1 year ago). It is also called 'belirli geçmiş zaman' (definite past tense) because it is certain (first hand knowledge) for the speaker.

When you use -miş past, it means you don't have the first hand knowledge. You may have heard it from somebody else.

* Dün gelmiş -- Somebody said to me that she came here yesterday (I didn't see her come)

* Şimdi gelmiş -- Somebody says (on the phone for example) that she has just come (I myself don't see her come)

This is the main function for -miş but that does not cover all.

If you realize that something has happened you can use it as well. In that case it means "I can see that" or "I now realize that" or "It has turned out that" etc.

Ex.
Yemek pişmiş -- I see that the meal has been cooked
(You entered to the kitchen and saw the already cooked meal -by somebody else-)

İyi ki gelmişim -- As it turns out it was the right thing to do for me to come here.
(You have come here and after some things happened you think that it was the right thing. You didn't know what's happened would happen before you came and it has turned out to be a good thing for you)


For the things which are happening now we use 'Şimdiki zaman' -(i)yor suffix. 'Şimdiki zaman' is usually equal to the present continious tense but is also used for present tense.

İşte geliyor -- Here she comes
Görüyorum -- I see it
Biliyorum -- I know it
etc

'Geniş zaman' is used things in general, thing you do in future etc.

İnsanlar akşamlari evde genellikle TV ye bakar -- People usually watch TV at home in the night time
(A general statement)

Haftaya gelirim -- I will come sometime next week

Yapabilir misin? -- Can you do it?
Evet yaparım -- Yes, I can
(You can also say "Evet yapabilirim" but as a shorter form it is preferred)

So as a result of the generality, it is used in the idioms.
Biri yer, biri bakar, kıyamet ondan kopar -- Somebody eats, somebody watches and that is why the fight breaks up

15.       CANLI
5084 posts
 27 Aug 2006 Sun 11:17 am

Ohhh,thank you very much Erdinç and aslan2

The tenses are much more clearer now thank you

But God,have we learnt all those rules in English too ?? lol
Verbal adjectives and nouns adjectives and all of those ??
İ wonder why it looks easier in English then ? lol

16.       bod
5999 posts
 27 Aug 2006 Sun 01:45 pm

Quoting CANLI:

İ wonder why it looks easier in English then ? lol



I am not sure that it does look easier in English!

17.       CANLI
5084 posts
 27 Aug 2006 Sun 02:30 pm

Ohh,Hello bod

Welcome back ,
Errrr... you are back i presume ?

How was your trip ?
Fantastic i guess

Well,maybe it is not easier in English really,but we use it and don't think where it came from,maybe that is why it sound easier

İ wish it will be same Türkçede too

Heyyy,
What did you do there ?
you talked Türkçe?How was it ?
Was it easy ?
They understood ?

İ'm very curios about it really,how would it be to use the language there

18.       CANLI
5084 posts
 29 Sep 2006 Fri 11:14 pm

İ'm still confused about how to form the participles Türkçede,
Maybe because its not just 1 suffix be added to the verb and then the sentence is done,

Bilmeyorum !

Can someone kindly please,try to explain it,so i can understand ?

Çok Tşk

19.       aslan2
507 posts
 30 Sep 2006 Sat 12:17 pm

Quoting CANLI:

İ'm still confused about how to form the participles Türkçede,
Maybe because its not just 1 suffix be added to the verb and then the sentence is done,

Bilmeyorum !

Can someone kindly please,try to explain it,so i can understand ?

Çok Tşk



Unfortunately not that easy. Here are some examples:

She is singing a song -- şarkı söylü-yor
Singing girl -- şarkı söyle-yen kız
The girl singing on the stage -- Sahnede şarkı söyle-yen kız
The girl came singing -- Kız şarkı söyle-yerek geldi
singing is good -- şarkı söyle-mek iyidir

it's a known fact -- o bil-inen bir gerçek
I have seen her -- onu gör-düm
I had sen her -- onu gör-müştüm
Completed work -- bitir-ilmiş
foreseen future -- gör-ünen gelecek
work (which was) done by me -- benim tarafımdan yap-ılmış
work (which has been) done by me -- benim tarafımdan yap-ılan

while working -- çalış-ır (or çalış-ıyor) iken
while (being) seen -- gör-ünür (or görün-üyor) iken

until done -- yap-ılıncaya dek
as seen -- gör-üldüğü gibi
as known -- bil-indiği gibi
when done -- yap-ılınca

work to do -- yap-acak (or yapıl-acak) iş
what to do -- ne yap-malı (yap-ılacak)
who to ask -- kime sor-malı
etc.

Also check this link:
http://www.practicalturkish.com/turkish-participle-construction.html

20.       CANLI
5084 posts
 30 Sep 2006 Sat 06:45 pm

Çok Tşk,aslan,i will try to understand,i thought its not easy too

You are much help thank you

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