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Use of the short infinitive
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| 1. |
13 Sep 2007 Thu 08:39 pm |
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Look at these two sentences:
- Bunu Türkçe yazmayı deniyorum.
- Sık sık olması gerekmiyor.
Why is the accusative form of the short infinitive used here?
I would have expected simply:
"yazmak deniyorum" & "olmak gerekmiyor"
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| 2. |
13 Sep 2007 Thu 10:58 pm |
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Quoting Malerwinkel: Look at these two sentences:
- Bunu Türkçe yazmayı deniyorum.
- Sık sık olması gerekmiyor.
Why is the accusative form of the short infinitive used here?
I would have expected simply:
"yazmak deniyorum" & "olmak gerekmiyor" |
As you mentioned: It is accusative! 
denemek can't be used like that, there is no reason.
gerekmek can be used only if the obligatory is maden by the same person as the activity. For that reason, it can be used only in general statements:
Gitmek gerekiyor. It is had to be gone
There is not a special person to do it. It is something general. If you do this job, you have to do it. If someone another, he has to.
Pazara gitmek gerekiyor.
It is needed to be gone to the market. (not important who will go)
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| 3. |
13 Sep 2007 Thu 11:43 pm |
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Do you mean to say that "Bunu Türkçe yazmayı deniyorum" is not a way of saying "I'll try to write this in Turkish" ? Denemek can't be used here? 
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| 4. |
13 Sep 2007 Thu 11:45 pm |
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Quoting Malerwinkel:
Do you mean to say that "Bunu Türkçe yazmayı deniyorum" is not a way of saying "I'll try to write this in Turkish" ? Denemek can't be used here? |
Sorry, I mean denemek can't be used like your infinitive attempt. You always have to say "yapmayı denemek", and never "yapmak denemek".
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| 5. |
14 Sep 2007 Fri 12:26 am |
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I see. So, denemek requires an accusative form of verbs it is used with. And (I think) only the short infinitive can take an accusative form, which explains that part of my question.
Now, wondering what other verbs do the same, I need a list. And, of course, drills!
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| 6. |
14 Sep 2007 Fri 11:26 am |
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Quoting Malerwinkel: I see. So, denemek requires an accusative form of verbs it is used with. And (I think) only the short infinitive can take an accusative form, which explains that part of my question.
Now, wondering what other verbs do the same, I need a list. And, of course, drills! |
In fact, the verbs which has accusatives are showed on the dicitonaries. For example, http://www.turkishdictionary.net
uses this format:
Quote: denemek
/ı/ to test, try; to experiment (with). |
this sign: /ı/ shows that it needs accusative
other examples:
sevmek
/ı/
1. to love; to like.
2. to fondle, caress. Sevsinler! colloq. Now isn´t he/she something! (said sarcastically). Sev beni, seveyim seni. proverb You scratch my back and I´ll scratch yours.
kabul etmek
/ı/
1. to accept; to consent, agree to; to acquiesce in.
2. to receive (someone).
getirmek
1. /ı, dan, a/ to bring (something, someone) from (a place) to (someone or a place).
2. /ı, a/ to bring (something, someone) to (someone or a place).
3. /ı/ to fetch.
4. /ı/ to reach (a period of time).
5. /ı/ to put forward, bring forth, set forth, present.
6. /ı/ to produce, cause, bring forth, bring about, bring on.
7. /ı/ to bring, carry, convey (news, greetings, etc.).
8. /ı/ to bring in, yield, produce (income, profit, etc.).
9. /ı, a/ to appoint (someone) to (a position, an office, etc.), bring (someone) to (a position, an office, etc.), designate (someone) (a title).
10. an auxiliary verb used after some nouns: pişmanlık getirmek to feel regret, be regretful.
and goes on...
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| 7. |
15 Sep 2007 Sat 01:13 am |
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Thanks for that explanation.
Reading about this in a grammar book, I see there is not only an accusative form of the short infinitive (as I incorrectly assumed above), but also an accusative form of the full infinite.
full infinitive accusative: gelmeği
short infinitive accusative: gelmeyi
I'm confused. If anyone can point me to a place where this is all laid out systematically, please do so!
Ronnie
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| 8. |
15 Sep 2007 Sat 11:57 am |
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Quoting Malerwinkel: Thanks for that explanation.
Reading about this in a grammar book, I see there is not only an accusative form of the short infinitive (as I incorrectly assumed above), but also an accusative form of the full infinite.
full infinitive accusative: gelmeği
short infinitive accusative: gelmeyi
I'm confused. If anyone can point me to a place where this is all laid out systematically, please do so!
Ronnie
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Full or short is confusing. Infinitive is infinitive.
What you call "short" is the mutated form of what you call "long".
It was "gelmeği" that was considered correct by TDK at first (earlier than 1950 for example). Later they changed their mind and declared that "gelmeyi" is the correct form.
Different case suffixes make some difference in usage.
Nominative case (No suffix)
-mek form is used more.
gitmek istiyorum.
gitmek mi zor kalmak mı?
-e/-i cases and possessive suffixes
-me form is used almost always.
sana gelme-ye karar verdim.
sana gelme-yi düşÃ¼nüyorum
sana gelme-m iyi olacak.
In theory -mek is possible but never used.
sana gelmeğ-e karar verdim.
sana gelmeğ-i düşÃ¼nüyorum
sana gelmeğ-im iyi olacak.
-de case
Both forms are possible and most of the times they are close in meaning.
eve gitmek-te fayda var.
eve gitme-de fayda var.
-den case
Both forms are possible but there may be difference.
eve gitmek-ten vazgeçtim.
eve gitmek-ten gitme-ye fark var.
eve gitme-den gitme-ye fark var.
with postpositions
-mek is used mostly. See nominative case also.
işe gitmek için erken kalktım.
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| 9. |
15 Sep 2007 Sat 10:39 pm |
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Unsure as to how to refer to these two distinct forms in English, I translated them directly from the German terms used in the Turkish grammar book I'm using, "Türkische Grammatik. Für Anfänger und Fortgeschrittene." by Margarete I. Ersen-Rasch.
You mention the TDK having changed "gelmeği" to "gelmeyi", saying: "It was "gelmeği" that was considered correct by TDK at first (earlier than 1950 for example). Later they changed their mind and declared that "gelmeyi" is the correct form."
This is how Margarete I. Ersen-Rasch tells it: "At the end of the 1970s the spelling was changed for the full infinitive in the accusative and dativ and brought into line with the spelling of the short infinitive in the accusative and dativ. So, instead of gelmeği/almağı, one was supposed to write gelmeyi/almayı, and instead of gelmeğe/almağa, one was supposed to write gelmeye/almaya. That not only had repercussions on the pronunciation, but also on the fact that one could no longer tell which infinitive was actually meant. This change in spelling was changed back again in the mid-1980s. That reversal, however, is largely ignored." (My translation from the German)
Ersen-Rasch provides examples of differences in meaning, depending on whether the full infinitive or the short infinitive is used (in all the cases except the genitive, for which there is no full infinitive form).
But all this is not what I personally am confused about. Let me go back to my original examples:
- Bunu Türkçe yazmayı deniyorum.
And NOT (as I would have expected): Bunu Türkçe yazmak deniyorum.
- Sık sık olması gerekmiyor.
And NOT (as I would have expected): Sık sık olmak gerekmiyor.
What is new to me is that with two verbs used together like this, the infinitive one is not always the "full nominative infinitive" (if I can call it that), as in:
- Alışverişe çıkmak istiyorum.
If I understand correctly, and I'm not at all sure I do, some verbs simply require a case other than the nominative for verbs they are used with. And there can be differences in meaning, depending on whether the "full infinitive" or the "short infinitive is used.
I'm want to start a list of examples of various verbs.
Ronnie
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| 10. |
16 Sep 2007 Sun 07:36 am |
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The "short" form seems to be developed from the "long" form as a result of phonetic changes.
-e/-i cases and possessive suffixes
gelmeğ-im > gelme-m
gelmeğ-e > gelme-y-e
gelmeğ-i > gelme-y-i
Today "long" form seems to be not used anymore so TDK decided that "short" form should be used.
For genitive, I think it was also similar development for Istanbul Turkish:
gelmeğ-in > gelme-n-in
But take this example:
Kumuk Turkish - İstanbul Turkish
ALLAHU TAALAĞA İNANMAQNI BAYANI - ALLAHU TEALÂYA İNANMANIN BEYANI
As for your examples, I think it's about getting right which case should be used when.
- Bunu Türkçe yazmayı deniyorum.
And NOT (as I would have expected): Bunu Türkçe yazmak deniyorum.
-i case is required here. Nominative case is not used
- Sık sık olması gerekmiyor.
And NOT (as I would have expected): Sık sık olmak gerekmiyor.
Both form can be OK with different meanings:
(Bir şeyin) sık sık olması gerekmiyor.
Sık sık (orada) olmak gerekmiyor.
And there is a difference in the first and second example:
First one is the object of the verb (hence accusative). And the second one is the subject of the verb.
(Ben) bunu Türkçe yazmayı deniyorum. - (S)OV
Sık sık olması gerekmiyor. - SV
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