this year in france i met two turkish girls from antalya and they were dressed like me, with no difference. also the turkish guys said to me that the chador is no more compulsury.

I read all the interesting posts from the very first in this thread. I liked the spirit of femme-fatal,catwoman, aenigma and many others. After reading it all went to brush my teeth and kept thinking about the limits of freedom. The epiphany came suddenly - we all are slaves to our bodies and sexuality! To show face and hair or not in one part of the world, to show legs and busts or not in others. Is fat or skinny sexy? and so on and so forth... And I'm talking about both sexes - or rather all genders - in all cultures. We can only be free in our minds - as long as bodies are an obstacle to freedom - no one, nowhere is free! So first there are bodies and then societies and then other things follow... But if you realise that there's no body, it's all an illusion, it's all the matrix...

Ismitta - I like your philosophical thinking . And I agree, we can say taht we are slaves of our bodies. Our minds are biological structures - inherently dependent on matter. We see the world through our bodies and through the prism of our physical experiences. An ill person will be more depressed, her/his physical pain will dictate the meaning to every object, will need different things, will see/recognize different things. When my serotonine is high, I'm happier and more optimistic ...etc. Point is that there are some situations and aspects of life that are inseparable from our physical existence. And people question to what degree we actually have free will, but for now let's assume that our mental capability allows us to think beyond the boundaries of our own physical existence and dive into the abstract realms (if we are healthy and developed normally).

Now, things are complicated a little by the fact that... adult human beings are sexual beings. This is how nature created us so that we can propagate our species, this has a lot of implications, since biologically - reproduction is the most important goal of life (so it's a huge drive!)... and it would be a purely animalistic thing if we hadn't had such developed brains, that allow us such deep and broad range of emotions and such deep understanding of abstract ideas, like no other living things have. This is the way in which we can to a certain degree overcome our physical nature. People can do incredible things against their 'nature', we can decide not to eat anything for the whole day, although we are hungry for example, we can give up pretty much anything we want, if we want to.

The problem is that our sexuality has been incredibly commercialized and people make tons of tons of money off of it. It is the most lucrative business that would do anything to make people buy/watch/get addicted/do anything so that they can make money and they do. This is happening in capitalism.

Historically, a different story took place. Religions had major influence over our sexualities, and those religions were all patriarchal structures, where men dictated the rules...

Love your lectures catwoman
I know, here and now (and for centuries) we are only humans and can't escape our bodies and our sex drives to reproduce. What is the subject of your studies? I've been into femimist issues for some time now although lately have been rethinking things. Can't blame men for everything. Women perpetuate the status quo as well and are as cruel to each other as some men would never be. Of course - you can blame men again but... But I agree with someone on this forum before, the struggle would be easier if men helped. As for religions - yes, the latest ones coming from Middle East - Christianity and Islam come from more or less the same root - I mean Abraham - I might be wrong but it seems to me it was he who "invented" one god. I think we women should remember all the godesses worshiped before and speak up all the time and not let others to be silenced.
As I grow older I also think the sisters should not fight so much against men or law or whatever but rather for... for security for them and their children or just for being whoever they want to be and doing whatever they want to do - but here the grassroot movement is needed at homes, schools - changing the minds of children and young people.
But who should do it when minds of the older ones are contaminated? You see, I have to be philosophical otherwise I can't cope with what I see around - commerce everywhere, all so true what you said in your last post. Sometimes I think you have to have power to change the world, still are women much into power...? We can discuss things forever, can't we? But the times call for action! And education is the key, and this forum is a place for it as good as others - so bless you all sisters and brothers who left your trace here

Ismitta, I don't want to sound like I'm giving lectures... although it probably does sound like it... oh well.

I am not studying feminist studies, but I am a feminist - to be precise an 'evolutionary feminist'. That means that I am not blaming guys for their testosterone, but I'm blaming both men and women for various behavior.
Millions of years ago in the forests of Africa male homo sapienses were spreading their seeds and protecting their offsprings from the dangers of other animals in the forests, while females were giving birth, taking care of the kids and having preferance for the strongest male as their mate.
Anyways, we don't live in the forests any more and the level of complexity of our emotions and our level of intelligence requires some changes in our behavior (well, some poeple do take pride in behaving like 'cavemen'... :-S ).

We can discuss for ages the philosophical aspects of our existence, the influence of society, the degree of freedom... they are all fascinating topics, but as you said, we need to do something right away about some issues. I read some time ago that in Russia, every two minutes a woman DIES from domestic violence. I don't know the statistics in Middle Eastern countries, but we are all aware of the issues. Same things are happening in China, India, Africa and practically everywhere else to some degree. There are situations where women cannot escape tragedies, where they are sold like commodies, where they are treated with the most hypocritic unfairness and judgment.

And then there are commercial media that propagate the image of woman as a sexual object, weak, unable to control her feelings (horrible thing!) and always dependent on the strong, and... never able to control himself male, which is strangely enough always excusable for him, if not downright attractive!

The primary topic of this discussion was 'why Turkish women don't wear make-ups and jewellry'. I've been in Istanbul this summer and I've seen that Turkish women wear quite a lot of jewellry, have some of the most elaborate make-ups and dress like any 'western' woman would. They love male attention and seem to be doing anything they want. This must not be the case for ALL women in Turkey, as there are also examples of girls from smaller villages who are treated like property. Here's one such story:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12812607/

By the way - sorry, I don't mean to change the topic .

A terrible story, catwoman, and women all over the world can tell you some - take Sierra Leone after the years of war. That's really disturbing and sad.

I am just a high school teacher, but I am also a woman and a feminist. The western world's perception Islamic oppression of women seems to be slightly askew.

I think we need not accuse each other, but rather try to understand each other if we wish to create a sense of solidarity that mobilizes and empowers women across the globe.

Here is a poem I use to help my students question and understand the hijab:

This is a Letter to Your Beautiful Mind

From Rahat Kurd

From the scarfhead you glanced at
uneasily as you went past in the street today
as you pretended to take aim and fire
as you scornfully called out go back to iran or
wherever
how old this is getting
i'd rather write about the sky

response #1: go with your gut, girl

i wear this for fun, actually.
it's a scarf. deal with it.

response #2: politics and the
fine art of the reactionary

no, i'm not oppressed -
not a soldier of wrath - no, i'm not
patriarchy's last victim -
no, i do have rights -
i'm not a fundamentali -
hey. Hey! I'm talking to you -

response #3: the appeal to intellect through reason

I want someday
to manage the word God in a poem
without committing travesty

response #4: it's ironic

how what covers my hair
slows traffic
scares boys
stops ultraviolet rays
starts riots

keeps my ears warm in winter.

Rahat Kurd
copyright 1997

Thoughts?