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abortion is not a forbidden topic, is it...?
(130 Messages in 13 pages - View all)
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10.       vineyards
1954 posts
 14 Jan 2008 Mon 12:42 am

Though abortion should be done by the consent of both spouses, I think it is a woman's right to have the final word on it since pregnancy is ultimately a condition of the female body. All other consequences affecting males are both indirect and terminable. Nevertheless, the bond between a mother and her child is virtually ever lasting.

Abortion is a very difficult decision for men too. Nevertheless, the impact it may have on a female is both much more sophisticated and is graver.

11.       Elisabeth
5732 posts
 14 Jan 2008 Mon 05:05 pm

I hate to be a thread spoiler, but has anyone concidered that neither the woman or the man have the right to decide whether a child lives or dies. You are casually speaking of the blantant disregard for the sanctity of human life. Who has more of a right to end a human life?

I have spent a lot of time working on the other side of this issue (Pro Life) and you are wrong if you think many women don't regret it and that it is a big problem. It seems the woman in the famous Roe V. Wade case does herself. I don't have any fancy statistics to to back me up but I have known many women personally who deeply regret their decision. That's not to say that a vast majority have an abortion and then feel releaved but you shouldn't discount the ones who do as a small statistic.

12.       vineyards
1954 posts
 14 Jan 2008 Mon 05:17 pm

We are talking about abortion not murdering fully grown babies. There are certain legal limits determined together with scientists. Accordingly, abortion does become illegal after a certain number of weeks required for the neural development of the fetus.

Everyday we lose millions of cells or tissues. If I were to have a child everytime I have sex with a woman, even my own modest contribution to the Earth's human population could be enermous. Transformation from life to death and vice versa is perpetual. There is no hint in nature that tells us we should multiply as much as we can. On the contrary, there are very well designed population control mechanisms in nature. Why can't one of these mechanisms be our own intelligence?

P.S. I should have used the past tense when referring to all the women that I ....

13.       Elisabeth
5732 posts
 14 Jan 2008 Mon 05:40 pm

Quoting vineyards:

We are talking about abortion not murdering fully grown babies. There are certain legal limits determined together with scientists. Accordingly, abortion does become illegal after a certain number of weeks required for the neural development of the fetus.

Everyday we lose millions of cells or tissues. If I were to have a child everytime I have sex with a woman, even my own modest contribution to the Earth's human population could be enermous. Transformation from life to death and vice versa is perpetual. There is no hint in nature that tells us we should multiply as much as we can. On the contrary, there are very well designed population control mechanisms in nature. Why can't one of these mechanisms be our own intelligence?


P.S. I should have used the past tense when referring to all the women that I ....

I understand the scientific definitions you are talking about. In my professional life I spent quite a few years working in a medical laboratory. You must understand, vinyards, that this mass of cells you are speaking of has a genetic predisposition to be a living breathing human being. And for most the most part a life that was created by 2 consenting people. And in answer to your question, it does not take much intelligence to destroy human life.....but it takes great restraint to respect and protect it.

14.       teaschip
3870 posts
 14 Jan 2008 Mon 10:43 pm

Quoting vineyards:

We are talking about abortion not murdering fully grown babies. There are certain legal limits determined together with scientists. Accordingly, abortion does become illegal after a certain number of weeks required for the neural development of the fetus.

Everyday we lose millions of cells or tissues. If I were to have a child everytime I have sex with a woman, even my own modest contribution to the Earth's human population could be enermous. Transformation from life to death and vice versa is perpetual. There is no hint in nature that tells us we should multiply as much as we can. On the contrary, there are very well designed population control mechanisms in nature. Why can't one of these mechanisms be our own intelligence?

P.S. I should have used the past tense when referring to all the women that I ....



So murdering young babies vs fully grown babies there is a difference and who they hell do scientists think they are playing God?

You may want to research the developmental status of a baby from the time of conception to birth.The embryonic stage(week 3)occurs once the zygote has firmly implanted itself into the uterine wall. It is in this stage that the vital organs are formed, and while the external body is still extremely dissimilar from an adult human, some features such as eyes and arms, and eventually ears and feet become recognizable. So what the hell is it an alien?



15.       alameda
3499 posts
 15 Jan 2008 Tue 01:01 am

Quoting Elisabeth:

I hate to be a thread spoiler, but has anyone concidered that neither the woman or the man have the right to decide whether a child lives or dies. You are casually speaking of the blantant disregard for the sanctity of human life. Who has more of a right to end a human life?

I have spent a lot of time working on the other side of this issue (Pro Life) and you are wrong if you think many women don't regret it and that it is a big problem. It seems the woman in the famous Roe V. Wade case does herself. I don't have any fancy statistics to to back me up but I have known many women personally who deeply regret their decision. That's not to say that a vast majority have an abortion and then feel releaved but you shouldn't discount the ones who do as a small statistic.




The question of the human soul is not the same in all religions. I think we had this conversation previously, but I'll repeat it here.

Not all feel that a fertilized egg (zygot) is in posession of a human soul. It has the potential to be human. In Islam it is around the time when the fetus takes on the appearance of a human. In Judaism it is when the child is actually born alive.

As for ending a pregnacy, it is never an easy question, and I don't think many do it casualy. At least, I hope they don't.

One thing I'm deeply disturbed by is the discounting and trivialization of men's feelings towards parenting. I' sat with man who was deeply scared and cried for his lost child when his wife had a late stage abortion. It was as if he had been castrated. Any choice regarding their parenting feelings were totaly discounted in favor of the woman's desires. This treats men like commodoties rather than responsible, feeling human beings.

I think some woman have treated men like little more than sperm banks recently. In fact there are women who even look for suitable DNA candidates, rather than fathers and husbands, or go to sperm banks. If we want families, maybe we should rethink things?

A problem with the doner option is the chance of incest due to the fact the offspring don't know who their fathers are.

Court annuls marriage between twins separated at birth

Of course, no woman should be treated like a breeder, but men shouldn't be treated like simple studs either.

These links show development through all stages of embryonic development. They are very interesting. You can click on the images for more info.

embryo development

embrionic stages

16.       KeithL
1455 posts
 15 Jan 2008 Tue 01:20 am

Quoting vineyards:

If I were to have a child everytime I have sex with a woman, even my own modest contribution to the Earth's human population could be enermous.

P.S. I should have used the past tense when referring to all the women that I ....



yes, important to emphasize past...

17.       alameda
3499 posts
 15 Jan 2008 Tue 01:22 am

Quoting KeithL:

Quoting vineyards:

If I were to have a child everytime I have sex with a woman, even my own modest contribution to the Earth's human population could be enermous.

P.S. I should have used the past tense when referring to all the women that I ....





You call this modest?

18.       KeithL
1455 posts
 15 Jan 2008 Tue 01:25 am

laughing at Vineyards qualification of statement...thats all

I am not entering this battle...

19.       vineyards
1954 posts
 15 Jan 2008 Tue 02:01 am

In Quran, the development of the fetus is described as follows in Surahs 22-23-24 and 32.
"He makes you in the wombs of your mothers in stages, one after another, in three veils of darkness."
"Then We placed him as a drop in a place of rest."
"Then of that leech-like structure, We made a chewed lump."
"Then We made out of the chewed lump, bones, and clothed the bones in flesh."
"Then We developed out of it another creature."
"And He gave you hearing and sight and feeling and understanding."
"Then out of a piece of chewed flesh, partly formed and partly unformed."
"And We cause whom We will to rest in the wombs for an appointed term."

This statement: "then we developed out of it another creature" is quite interesting, in my opinion, The Quran considers man's development in the uterus in two stages e.g a transition from subhuman into human form.

P.S. I don't consider myself light-hearted just because I might support my partner if she decides in favour of an abortion within medically and ethically proper periods. This is a legal right on my part and I don't need anyone to show me how to use my legal rights.

20.       catwoman
8933 posts
 15 Jan 2008 Tue 02:46 am

Quoting alameda:

One thing I'm deeply disturbed by is the discounting and trivialization of men's feelings towards parenting. I' sat with man who was deeply scared and cried for his lost child when his wife had a late stage abortion. It was as if he had been castrated. Any choice regarding their parenting feelings were totaly discounted in favor of the woman's desires. This treats men like commodoties rather than responsible, feeling human beings.



men have LOTS of privilages because of the fact that they don't have to give birth. if they want to give birth, their feelings will be more important, right now it's the person who would have to be pregnant that can and will decide about her choice.

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