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'Anatolian women''
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50.       Gizli Yuz
130 posts
 31 May 2007 Thu 05:47 am

First off all,

1)Folkloric clothes of Turkish people
and
2)economical and social problems of Turkish people

are

two different things.

I was answering Catwoman's statements related to Turkish villagers' clothes.

But Catwoman changed the subject suddenly and wrote a comment on Turkish women's social and economical troubles.

Firstly, let me make it clear the cloth issue.

Regardless the stereotyped image of Turkish people, show the Turkish people as who they exactly are.

If you are to show the Turkish villagers, show the exact picture, like the video does in this thread.

The point is that Turkish people are neither a traditionally European people, nor a Arabic people.

As for the Turkish women rights issue;

This web site would be one of the last places (If not the last) to discuss Turkish people's social problems, mainly because of the fact that the issue would be discussed with foreigners most of whom are merely tourists.

The other reason is that We Turks have already been discussing the issue for ages. Nearly all questions have been answered by Turkish sociologists and intellectuals since 1850's.

For instance, Namik Kemal, who was a brilliant Turkish intellectual, pointed out many problems of Turkish women, and explained the solutions in 1860's.

www.wikipedia.org/Namik_Kemal

There're many university researches on the tradional problems of Turkish women in Turkey.

So, what are you expecting to achive in discussing the issue with the people of Turkey, unless your intention is annoying the local people.

What's the real point really, Catwoman?

The most demonstrative posts would exactly be like the below one If we were to discuss the issue with a couple of tourists.

"Okkay, now let's see Turkish men's videos."

Enough is enough.

Please stop telling Turkish people their own people.

51.       kat007
95 posts
 31 May 2007 Thu 06:53 am

I have a comment and/or question about headscarf.

I was talking to my friend in East turkey last night and he mentioned that all the women in his family and cousins/friends etc. wear plain BLACK cloth to cover their hair when they go out because fancy/multi-colored silk headscarfs draw a lot of attention. They are traditional/religious types.

Is this common in Eastern part of turkey or is it just his family?

I had bought some nice silk scarfs with flowers, multi-colored etc. but he says I can give it as gifts but the women would only wear it in the privacy of their homes. I was kind of irritated with this. Any thoughts on this?

52.       qdemir
813 posts
 31 May 2007 Thu 10:22 am

Quoting kat007:

I have a comment and/or question about headscarf.

I was talking to my friend in East turkey last night and he mentioned that all the women in his family and cousins/friends etc. wear plain BLACK cloth to cover their hair when they go out because fancy/multi-colored silk headscarfs draw a lot of attention. They are traditional/religious types.

Is this common in Eastern part of turkey or is it just his family?

I had bought some nice silk scarfs with flowers, multi-colored etc. but he says I can give it as gifts but the women would only wear it in the privacy of their homes. I was kind of irritated with this. Any thoughts on this?


There is no need to wear a headscarf in the privacy of home. As for the colour, it is simply a matter of choice.

53.       qdemir
813 posts
 31 May 2007 Thu 10:40 am

catwoman, I simply asked you to tell us about women in your home country, Poland to know about the issue from the first hand rather than the second hand. You refused to tell us about women in Poland. But I hope you will share your comments on the following article with us?

The article was compiled by the feminists:
Beata Fiszer
Jolanta Plakwicz
Anka Siwek


WOMEN'S REPRESENTATION

Women's representation at decision-making lev el is unequal in Poland. There are 60 women out of 460 parliamentarians a nd 13 women senators out of 100. There are 7,002 women at the gmina level out of 52,075 councillors. The percentage of women at decision-making level has been low and is decreasing.

For years, the number of women ministers (cabinet members) has not been exceeding two (one at present).

At the highest managerial positions in corpoate business women are practically non-existent.

There are no women members of the Council of the Polish Broadcasting Corporation and practically no women heading its m ain departments.

Editors-in-chief of main Polish opinion-making newspapers and magazines are all men.
LABOUR MARKET

Since there is no equal status legislation in Poland, women are discriminated also in the labour market. Job offers still include preferences as to the sex of the applicant, employers still de mand doctor's certificates that a woman applicant is not pregnant, and ther e still exists a list of jobs that women cannot be legally employed at (concerning mainly pregnant women but also all women as regards a job of a miner).

Women earn 35 per cent less than men in compa rable positions. In 1996, the average wages/salary for men was PLN 943.26 and for women PLN 747.24.(Statistical Yearbook, 1998).

Men have higher employment rate (59.8 than w omen (44.0, and women have higher unemployment rate (12.0 than men (8.7). The average duration of a job search is also longer for women than for men. (Statistical Yearbook, 1998).

These tendencies persist. Some sources in Pol and quote even bigger discrepancies between men and women in these fields. (Fuszara, March 1996: managerial positions - men's average PLN 1,725, women's average PLN 1,301, experts - men's average PLN 1,217, women's average PLN 898).

Unemployed women are not treated equally by s tate job agencies. The attitude that women have their husbands to maintain them still prevails in Poland.

Paradoxical example: a state job agency in Rzeszow (Southern Poland) threatened that it would take away unemployment bene fits from women who refused to take jobs in escort agencies (brothels) in t hat region.

Women aged 55 to 60 are often subject to violation of their labour rights. The concept that women should retire earlier ( due to domestic obligations towards their grandchildren) still prevails in Poland and is often used by employers as a pretext to force women to r etire earlier. The Civil Rights Commissioner had lately intervened in case o f women civil servants who were being forced to retire during the reform of state administration (1997).

After many years of preparations, on January 1, 1999, a new retirement law came into force. The law provides that wome n should retire at 60 and men at 65. The government suggestion to amend the law in order for women to be able to choose their age of retirement be tween 60 and 65 has been rejected by the Senat. The unequal retirement age f or women means that women will get in practice only up to 61.8 per cent r etirement pension of men.
FOREIGN (MIGRANT) WOMEN AND REFUGEES

Contrary to what is written in the previous g overnment report, the PSF Women's Centre knows of a growing number of cases conc erning unequal treatment of women foreigners in Poland. The phenomenon of for eign workers and refugees in Poland is still new and the situation of women is often much more complicated than men. The Polish authorities are se ldom informed of gender implications of the phenomenon. Rough estimation of our organization shows that the law on foreigners and refugees in Pola nd would need further elaboration in order to fully guarantee the rights and freedoms acknowledged by the ICCPR.

For instance, an Armenian woman who applied for permanent residence in Poland after five years of legal stay was order ed to leave the country within two weeks because in the opinion of the Vo ivodship Office for Foreigners she "earned too little to maintain her family i n such an expensive country as Poland".
(See also the situation of foreign prostitutes in Poland.)
REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS

Maternity
The Preamble to the ICCPR states that everyone has a right to "inherent dignity of the human person". Many women in Poland report on violation of this right as regards the conditions in gynaeco logical hospitals and maternity wards. Reported cases include violations of such rights as the right to free choice on breast-feeding, keeping a woman's own clothes, to choose or refuse the method of anesthesis, not to be isolated from the newly born child, etc.

Abortion
In its previous report the government of Poland does not mention the impact of the new abortion law on women in Poland and does not seem to treat it as a serious violation of women's reproductive rights, as included in Art. 9, 17,18,19,26 of the ICCPR.

Protection of the Human Foetus and the Conditions for Admissibility of Abortion Act dated January 7, 1993 constitutes a serious threat to women's lives (Article 6 of ICCPR, and Article 20 of the Polish Constitution)). It results in practice in frequent refusal by public medical institutions of delivering legal abortion services to women whose life and health are endangered by pregnancy.

Practical implementation of the Act frequently results in cases when women face difficulties in obtaining doctor's recommendation for abortion. Such infringement of women's rights also often occurs when pregnancy is a result of rape due to prolonged prosecutor's procedures (abortion is legal only for women who are less than 12 weeks pregnant).

For instance, in 1998 a 14-year-old girl was raped in Slupsk (Northern Poland), the prosecutor issued a certificate allowing her to get abortion, however, the medical staff refused to perform abortion for she was pregnant 12 weeks and 6 days at the time.

In 1995 the Main Council for Medical Ethics issued Commentary to the Code of Medical Doctors' Ethics. The Commentary leaves no doubts as to the interpretation of the Art. 4 of the Code referring to the so-called "conscious clause": "to fulfil their duties the medical doctors are free to act in accordance with their conscious and contemporary medical knowledge" had been interpreted "(...) abortion may be refused in spite of the fact that it is legal and admissible due to a woman's health condition or any other conditions concerning conception".

Abortion has been denied to women not only by gynaecologists but also by anesthesiologists and the lower medical staff.

For instance, in 1997 a pregnant woman suffering from cardiovascular disease, mother of 8 children, possessing doctor's certificate for abortion due to health reasons, was denied anesthesis by medical staff in Slupsk ( Northern Poland).

Pressed by their authorities, many hospitals in Poland declared that abortion would not be performed at their premises. Paradoxically, many doctors working in such hospitals offer private (i llegal) abortion services to women. The Civil Rights Commissioner notified the Ministry of Health of such practice in 1997. The prices for illegal abortion are high and in case of post-abortion complications women are deprived of proper medical assistance because doctors refuse to bring women to hospitals. As a result of this, a woman died in Lodz in 1995.

Threatening to women's lives are also clandestine abortions (in 1996 a husband tried to perform an abortion on his wife by injecting penicillin into her uterus, of which she later died) as well as abortion tourism to countries, such as for instance Ukraine, where abortions are performed in unhealthy conditions.

In 1996 the Polish Parliament approved of an amendment to the Abortion Act allowing for abortion in "specially difficult life situation of a woman" (social indication). The Amendment was later submitted to the Cons titutional Tribunal, which rendered it unconstitutional.

State gathered data show 900 legal abortions in 1994, and 559 in 1995.

In 1995: 149 abortions were due to life threat, 370 to health threat, 33 to fetal injury and 7 due to rape indication. In 21 cases reported abortion was denied. 738 infants were abandoned in hospitals in that year and 13 women had a miscarriage as a result of being battered by their partners.

Women's organizations estimate the number of abortions per year at 40 to 50 thousand, of which 16 thousand are performed abroad (this estimation is, among others, based on data obtained from abortion tourism agencies).

The Statistical Yearbook, however, provides no data concerning illegal abortion, nor deaths or complications resulting from it.

The Abortion Act also compels the Ministry of National Education to introduce sex education programs to public school curricula as well as the government to provide single mothers with obligatory financial aid. In practice, however, financial aid provided by the government is not sufficient to encompass all of single mothers' group.

The government is also ineffective in the implementation of the Act as regards sex education in schools. Sex education textbooks recommended by the Polish Ministry of Education show heavy Catholic and anti-choice bias, and exclude information on important questions concerning human sexuality, for instance, full range of contraceptive methods, sexual orientation, etc.


Sterilisation
Sterilisation is legally forbidden in Poland by the Penal Code, Medical Doctors Act and Medical Doctors Code of Ethics.

Both women and men are equally deprived of this right. However, it is easier for a woman to obtain a voluntary (illegal) sterilisation (if she already has several children) than for a man (no matter how many children he has).

Contraception
The Medical Doctors' Chamber recommends that doctors should inform their patients about contraceptive methods only if requested.

There is limited range of contraceptives in the market and their prices are quite high.

The government refused to provide state subventions to any medicaments that may be used as contraceptives, including those used for hormone replacement therapy during menopause.

In 1998 the Governmental Plenipotentiary for Family announced that the government was intending to subsidize Viagra for men who have difficulties with procreation. So far the idea was dropped.

One of the above mentioned sex education text books (recommended by the Ministry of Education for secondary schools) includes the following statement on contraception: "(...) contraception cannot be treated as a proper norm of human sexual behaviour due to mor al harm it does to a human being"

FAMILY

Marriage and Divorce
The Polish Constitution defines marriage exclusively as a union of a man and a woman (Art. 18).

The Polish Civil Code constitutes different marriage age for men (21) and for women (18).

Divorce, according to the Polish law, may only be granted by a court. Recently, divorce may only be granted by a regional court, which violates the right to equal access to public service of those who live in remote areas.

As a result of the treaty between Poland and Vatican, the Polish law on marriage was changed in order to allow people to marry in churches (before a church wedding had not been recognized as a lawful marriage). There are now two types of lawful marriage, however, since the Catholic religion does not allow for a divorce, only civil divorce may be granted to Catholics in Poland.

According to the Polish civil law, divorce may only be granted in case of "marriage deterioration", which means, in practice, that the husband either drinks or beats his wife and children or does not bring money home and/or the wife refused to fulfil "her family obligations", i.e. either keep up the house and children or sex with the husband. Majority of divorce cases are filed by women and the main reason for it is "alcoholism of a husband", although it is well-known that these data often hide numerous instances of domestic violence and violence against women.

Domestic Violence
Domestic violence is above all violence against women. Women constitute majority of its victims. Almost 90 per cent of perpetrators are the victim's husbands or partners.

Police has long been reluctant to intervene in "family matters", however, since 1998 an education campaign was started: police men and women have been trained and a so-called "blue card" has been introduced, which, among other things, provides for a better statistics on domestic violence. The scope of domestic violence, however, still remains unknown. Women still keep this crime silent.

Generally in Poland a human right to due process (Art. 14 p.c. of the ICCPR) is often violated, which in case of domestic violence means that women are battered even more while the case is on trial (and often by men who are already sentenced to penalties in suspension). There are no court procedures that would limit perpetrator's freedom of movement (such as restriction order, etc.). The court order to move out (exmission from apartment) is seldom implemented and the police are reluctant to interfere even in cases of violence against an ex-wife.

In Poland a system of state protection of witnesses has not been built until date, except in cases of organized crime. This lack of protection often results in the growth of violence on the part of perpetrators against their victims as well as witnesses of the crime.

The Polish courts often treat domestic violence as a minor crime, pronounce low verdicts or dismiss cases.

Recommended norms regarding the number of shelters for battered women are not respected in Poland. For instance, in the capital city of Warsaw (approx. 2 million inhabitants) there are practically three to four shelters for women (mostly for single mothers). In the whole country there not more than 8 to 10 shelters for women victims of violence providing psychological, medical and legal aid.

There are approximately 150 various consultancy centres, where women can obtain information and 130 to 150 shelters for homeless people, where victims of domestic violence can also find shelter. However, their general state results in frequent incidents of sexual harassment and rape of these women.

For instance, a homeless woman was raped by an ex-client of the Monar shelter upgraded to become its manager, imprisoned there by him and forced to bear his child.

After the Beijing Conference the Governmental Plenipotentiary for Women and Family designed a National Program for Women, part of which (co-financed by UNDP) was devoted to the issue of violence against women. The Program aimed at establishing a system of empowering women victims of domestic violence, also in the economic sphere.

In 1997 when the new government came into power, the office of the Governmental Plenipotentiary for Women and Family was changed into the Governmental Plenipotentiary for Family headed by a man. His first decision was to dismiss the Program Council and stop the Program's implementation. In the view of the present Plenipotentiary, the question of domestic violence in Poland has been exaggerated by the previous government for purely political reasons.

Official statistics categorize domestic violence as a crime against family and show that 80 per cent of its victims are women. In 1995, the police intervened 921,000 times in cases of "family crisis", 20,000 persons were investigated as suspected of domestic violence.

In 1996, the courts issued verdicts in 15,412 trials. 90.1 per cent of perpetrators got suspended penalties, and 76.5 per cent of them got penalties ranging from six months to one year imprisonment.

Women victims of domestic violence are often subject to torture (Art. 7 of the ICCPR).

For instance, in the case on domestic violence it was revealed that a 21 year old husband had been torturing his wife for the past two years, including cutting off her upper lip with scissors.

Sexual Harassment and Rape
Contrary to the attitude of the Polish government expressed in its previous report, Polish women's organizations underst and rape and sexual harassment as forms of torture and serious violations of Art. 7 of the ICCPR.

Generally, the new Polish Penal Code (1998) provides for lower penalties for sexual harassment (up to 3 years) than the previous one (from 6 months to 5 years).

Rape is now treated as a crime against sexual freedom and morality (the previous Code - a crime against human freedom - which was more progressive). The new Code explicitly defines gang rape as a rape committed by at least 2 or more persons (in the old Code - more than 2) and marital rape and a rape of a prostitute as forms of statutory rape.

Police statistics includes no data on sexual harassment or rape in marriage. Raped wives seldom file for cases in courts and seldom report the crime to the police. (The number of policewomen is very low in Poland). On the other hand, Polish sexologists often emphasize rape in marriage to be frequently reported during therapy sessions.

For instance, in 1994 a court sentenced Leslaw S. to 2.5 year imprisonment for sexual assault on his wife, who jumped from the window of their 3rd floor apartment in order to survive his attempt of rape.

Low statistics on rape reporting have a lot to do with the double victimization of rape victims, who have to undergo additional trauma connected with police and court procedures in such cases. The hearings are not registered on (video) tape , there is no safe system of perpetrator's identification. As in case of domestic violence, there is no system of protection of the victims and witnesses. The victims are often afraid of testifying, especially when their "proper sexual conduct" is questioned, as is often the case of women victims of rape. The attitude that women are responsible for sexual behaviour of men still persists within law enforcement institutions in Poland.

For instance, in case of teenage girls (11-17 years old) raped by a group of policemen in By tom, a lot of attention was attached to the reasons of "their being out late at night". Although the policemen were sus pected of alleged crimes, the pressure exerted on the victims and other witnesses resulted in prolonged investigation (it lasted for more than two years) until the court's decision was to finally release the accused from temporary arrest.

The courts investigate more than 2 thousand rape cases per year.

There is a tendency in courts to pronounce lower verdicts in rape cases than before.

For instance, in 1998 a court in Opole (Western Poland) sentenced young men guilty of specially cruel gang rape of a 14-year old girl to 1.5-2 year suspended imprisonment because "before it happened, their reputation had been very good".

Prostitution and Trafficking in Women
The Polish government report (August 1992-December 1994) remains silent on this matter, in the view of the PSF Women's Centre, however, there are important violations of women's rights in the area of prostitution and trafficking in women. (See also: the report of UN Special Rapporteur to Poland, issued in December 1996 and referring to the the years described in the government report).

The new Penal Code forbids trafficking in human persons (penalty not less than 3 years imprisonment) and trafficking for prostitution (in case of adolescents and without a consent of persons trafficked abroad - penalty from 1 year to 10 years imprisonment).

In 1994, there were 49 cases of women trafficked from Poland abroad (48 of them were submitted to court).

In 1997, 200 women (aged 15-27) were reported as "missing".

In the same year, a spectacular trial of a Polish trafficker (Piotr Rusol) took place. He was sentenced to 12 years of imprisonment for trafficking at least 54 women to Germany and Switzerland and helping other groups to traffick at least 84 women to Holland and Belgium.

Prostitution in Poland has a quasi-legal status. It is not recognized as work. Prostitutes pay no taxes and are not entitled to social benefits. The penal code forbids making profit out of someone else's prostitution. Brothels are forbidden but the so-called escort agencies proliferate in Poland.

Foreign prostitution (mainly from ex-Soviet countries and Bulgaria) has been growing in Poland. The situation of foreign prostitutes has much worsened lately, due to various quasi-legal interventions against them by the Polish authorities and police.

There are no statistics on the numbers of for eign women trafficked for prostitution to Poland, but data on foreign women deported from Poland show constant increase. Foreign prostitutes are detained under various pretexts and deported from Poland when their tourist visa (30 days) expires without any possibility for appeal - the 6 days period for appeal is not being kept and there is no possibility for foreigners to appeal the Polish authorities decision from abroad. (Foreigners in general have no right to stay in Poland while their appeal is considered by the Polish authorities).

In 1997 - 5,707 foreigners were compelled to deportation, of which 3,794 persons were deported. (Similarly to other statistics in Poland, these data are not gender segregated).

The media informed that the first deportation of prostitutes took place in November 1995 (no data available).

In 1996 - 11 police raids took place - 379 persons were deported.

In 1997 - it is estimated that 15 per cent of all deportations (2,538) concerned prostitutes, i.e. 380 women were deported, mostly from areas along the Polish-German border.



54.       Waseem_UK
174 posts
 31 May 2007 Thu 10:41 am

Interesting photos. Only wished I'd worked hard enough on my Turkish to read the messages on the slideshow. Viva Turkiye!

55.       MrX67
2540 posts
 31 May 2007 Thu 11:00 am

well,i think we talking about same things again and again,and it turned as a vicious circle.All countries and falks have their own specialities and thats the sort of wealth for big world family.And all customs or traditions comes from deep of history,trying to understand reasons of this realitities better then to judge other life stilies,cultures and beliefs.noone of us can't be bossy about that,or noone never have any right about judgind others about their life prefers.Sure we have to talk all about whats goin on all over world for make better things,but with more tolerance and calm,and we have to be positive on everything even if the things not true for us.So how come a Turk can think about the things as a foreigner aswell how a foreigner can't understand all realities of Turkish people or other cultures.we can't perceive everything without live em fully,so pls a bit more tolerance,thats all..

56.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 31 May 2007 Thu 12:48 pm

I think that the huge message is not only off-topic, in the same time it is in no way in any proportion with the subject of the thread itself!

I understand you questioning Catwoman, but by such reactions you make the situation between the two of you only worse. If you (two) go on this way, you will reach a day that you are not trying to convince the other of your right, but just say anything to be in your right! Please stop this and lets turn back to the thread.


KeithL, can you tell us which message you saw?

57.       MrX67
2540 posts
 31 May 2007 Thu 05:19 pm

i think theres a big debate,but honest couldn't get yet whats the problem??

58.       karekin04
565 posts
 31 May 2007 Thu 05:23 pm

Quoting karekin04:

The article was compiled by the feminists:
Beata Fiszer
Jolanta Plakwicz
Anka Siwek



I really think this post was rediculous and pointless, and I really hope that even still after you spent the time looking for this and posting it that catwoman will not respond and that your efforts go in vain. Again, this topic was about "turkish women" not polish, dutch, german or any other type of women, so weather or not she took it out of context and upset you does not make you posting this relevant. Although interesting and I did read it. What is your point??? What response are you trying to drag out of her? That women are just as oppressed in Poland?? Sorry but I just don't get this
and as I see it, I have gone back and reread all of the posts in this thread and I only saw 2 from catwomen then several of you explode on her? I'm very confused as to WHY? I really don't see anything bad that she said, she said she fealt bad, maybe you feel that she shouldnt but how she feels is none of your concern any of you. I think maybe if you to reread her messages you might think you are being a bit unfair? bariş

59.       karekin04
565 posts
 31 May 2007 Thu 05:26 pm

Quoting MrX67:

i think theres a big debate,but honest couldn't get yet whats the problem??

i don't get it either, but lovely vid MrX

60.       libralady
5152 posts
 31 May 2007 Thu 05:36 pm

Quoting karekin04:

Quoting MrX67:

i think theres a big debate,but honest couldn't get yet whats the problem??

i don't get it either, but lovely vid MrX



Neither do I. To me just onderfully artistic photos of traditionally dressed women and they could be from one of several countries.

I think that some of this has got out of hand "again".

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