CAIRO, Egypt – A relative newcomer to Arab TV, the Turkish soap opera "Noor" has helped narrow the gender gap between men and women across the Middle East.
Women see the lead female character – the independent, aspiring fashion designer Noor -- as a role model. Meantime, her husband on the show -- the blue-eyed former model and athlete Mohannad -- has become the region’s first pin-up boy.
The nightly soap opera has mainly female viewers glued to their TV sets not only because Mohannad is a cuter version of Justin Timberlake, but because he offers something many lack in their lives: romance, tenderness and a supportive partner to his independent wife. Mohannad has become the standard against which many Arab men are being judged, much to their chagrin.

Too much to live up to
According to Arab newspapers, marriages in Jordan, Syria and Saudi Arabia have dissolved because wives insisted on putting Mohannad´s picture on their mobile phone display, or on their bedroom wall. In Bahrain, a woman allegedly begged her husband to have plastic surgery to look like the actor. Another recent divorcee allegedly told her husband "I want to sleep with Mohannad one night and then die."
In Saudi Arabia, where about one in seven people tunes in each night, men circulated the rumor that Kivanc Tatlitug, the actor who plays Mohannad, is gay, which left female viewers distraught until the rumor was dispelled.
Saudi society abounds with Mohannad jokes such as this one: A Saudi woman was touring Turkey with her husband and son when her husband went missing. As she described him to the police, her son shouted, "But that´s not what Daddy looks like." "Be quiet," she whispers, "They might just give me Mohannad."

A positive role model for women
To some young women, the aspiring fashion designer Noor, provides a positive female role model and encourages them to raise the bar not only on future spouses but on themselves.
In Cairo, Na´ama Hegazy, a single 25-year-old, watches "Noor" three times a day and says it has influenced the way she sees her future.
"I want a romantic [man] who treats me like how Mohannad treats his wife. Every day he brings her flowers and tells her romantic words," said Hegazy. "The life will be very good when a husband treats his wife [like that]."
But Hegazy also wants to emulate Noor who is a both a good wife and mother, and a self-reliant professional. "When she has troubles with Mohannad, she wants him to leave her alone. She wants to work and doesn´t want anything from him. This means any woman who falls out with her husband can work and depend on herself."

Rest of the article:
Soap Opera "Noor" (Gümüş ) changes traditional Arab Gender Roles


A family watches the Turkish soap opera "Noor" in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, on Saturday.

Ohhh GOD!its as silly and BORİNG as The Bold and the Beautiful ´American soap series´,if you know what i mean !

İts not also real,i mean things not happening that way in Türkiye ´or is it ? lol´
The woman ´wife´ keep yelling to the man ´husband´ and he ALWAYS try to make up things with her no matter how long and how many times she rejected him !

Although the only thing i find it REAL with ALL men not just Turkish men,that when they make mistake,they try to claim that woman was part of the reason that he did that mistake,and it wasnt his fault alone
Check this out
´he started to be interested with his EX wife ,and feel jealouse for her because HİS wife,suspected this,and she was accusing him of that when he was innocent so as a result she draw his attention AGAİN back to his ex wife and he started to feel somethings,but when he examined it later ´after spending the night at his ex wife house DRUNK´he knew that he loves his wife,never the less it was his wife mistake that he was in that stiuation´
Pahhhhhhhh !
MEN!

Anyway,maybe because its Eastern series not Western,so it give the women and girls in the Middle East feeling that,things can happen that way,and it can be real with our own traditions.´Turkish and Arab Traditions almost same´
So,maybe that thing alone is a good thing !
And if its doing this in Saudi Arabia ´and women believing it ´ then sure its good hee hee

I watch "Gümüş-Noor),and it´s very nice series and interesting show,I enjoy it every time I watch it,Turkish series are very interesting, Kivanc Tatlitug is not gay its only a gossip,he is very handsome,i adore his eyes!but it doesnt mean that I want to put his picture next to my bed and dream of him all the time !it´s crazy to do that !!!!!!!
Anyway I love Gümüş series,it´s not a silly or boring series.
Turkish men are sexy

I hope this show encourges Saudi women to stand up for their rights.

I love Gümüş series as well,however I couldn´t watch it when it was on turkish TV, so I try to watch it on youtube, but I cannot find episode 29 and so on, so I cannot watch the rest

The story and their life style may not reflect the majority of the turkish families, but they have done it this way to make it a more like a soap-opera and attractive to watch. However, you can still find a lot of turkish motifs in it too. That´s what it makes it different than the other western series to the arab people.

And ofcourse the reason for the season is Kıvanç Tatlıtuğ. He has made a lot of female fans. He is both romantic and a bit macho in the series, so the women dream about him.

It´s alreadt a good thing that they show these series on arab channels.

Kıvanç Tatlıtuğ IS VERY HANDSOME and I like his eyes so much,I like that series Ihlamular altinda and it´s very very nice series I like it more than Gumus
Yilmaz ve Filiz en guzel asklar

whoa this is soooo weird im watching it right now it s nice but not like that way and Saudis im sorry no offense but theyre crazy i mean really!!and yeah the actor IS good looking but not to a point where u become obsessed thats just silly one thing that might be drawing arabic viewers to it is that its different to what were used to watching its a different story and the truth is were kind of happy to see smbdy else´s problems coz were tired of seeing our own!! and i never wanted to watch it in the beginning co it reminded me of soap operas and its dubbed in arabic but the story is really nice and the truth is its doing Turkish tourism a huge favor!!! u have no idea how many arabs are going to turkey now i mean i know im begging my dad!!!but im not obsessed so i think that article really exaggerated things a bit!! but its still a matter of opinions.

Interesting!

I never watched "gümüş" but I think I came across when switching between channels. After taking a look for 10 or 15 seconds, I would switch to the next channel. What makes so many Arabs want to come to Turkey? Actors or views of Turkey or other things?

Are there any other Turkish serials broadcast in the Arab world?

hey i live in UAE and i cant discribe how this show effect

girlz here cuz it will take me 5000 words .

in fact i see it smthing stupid really how girlz think that by dreaming and watching this show will change their life . is it good to divorce and destroy family only bcuz the woman luv the male main actors ... is it good women want perfection and everyone know its hard her in middle east....

girlz think b4 u act

i dont see why it says its changing gender roles all these articles and things are over exaggerating it makes me feel that arabs are living in the 10th century and have no rights and dont use cars well i have a question have any of u gone to riyadh and seen the cars and the buildings and the villas there or beirut???or cairo????/ were civilized and women play a large part in society . theyre not animals like some ppl commented on that article, theyre not treated like cattle!!!i actually find it very wierd how ppl portrait the arab countries in their minds. like once i was talking got a russian girl and i told her that i was in egypt and shewas like "oh my god!!u have internet there???" imagine how surprised she was when i told her i was using highspeed and wireless too!!! i just hope ppl really change what they think about these countries even though i must admit that there are some countries in which women dont have aLL their rights like the right to drive for example oh and by the way just one comment WE ARE NOT TERRORISTS!!!

thank you!!!

i know exactly what youre talking about its the same situation here in egypt

nesreen u r so right =)

yeah dodi i am from egypt too . in egypt we have all the rights to do what ever we want , i just love watching gümüş for fun

si i,ll answer u when i watched gümüş for the first time i didnt know that there is a country called turkey when i watched it it opened my eyes on a new world a fancy world called TURKEY

Could you tell me what´s written here about Kıvanç Tatlıtuğ, it´s in arabic.
http://www.syria-news.com/var/articlem.php?id=3866

and what do people say in the comments section?

حتشد العديد من عشاق النجم التركيKivanc ، اليوم في مطار دمشق الدولي لاستقباله حيث كان وصوله في تمام الساعة الثالثة ظهرا وتم فتح قاعة الشرف له في المطار ومن ثم توجه الى بوابة القادمين .

وتم افساح الفرصة للعديد من معجبي النجم التركي لالتقاط صور تذكارية معه ومن ثم غادر المطار متوجها لمقر اقامته في فندق شيراتون دمشق وسط إجراءات أمنية مشددة من قبل الشركة المنظمة للحفل "اكسترا فغانزا" .

وسيقوم النجم التركي المشهور باسم "مهند " بتقديم حفل الفنان عمرو دياب المقرر اقامته في فندق الشيراتون بدمشق بتاريخ السادس من شهر آب الجاري .

وأفادت السيدة مي حناوي أن وصول النجم عمرو دياب الى سوريا سيكون في تمام الساعة الخامسة عصراً وسينم له استقبال حاشد في مطار دمشق الدولي ضمن تغطية العديد من المحطات الفضائية والإعلامية ، وسيتم تسيير الموكب في كل من مناطق القصاع ، باب توما ، الشعلان ، أبو رمانة والمالكي وصولا لفندق الشيراتون مقر اقامته





it says that alot of crowding fans were at the airport waiting for the turkish actor kivanc ttlitug where he arrived at 3 pm and the (like ) room of honour was opened for him and then he went to the arrivals gate and a lot of fans had the chance to take souvenir pix with him and then he went to his place of residence the sheraton hotel in down town damascus in the middle of very tight security by the company who arranged the party "extra faganra " (i think) and the famous turkish actor "mohanned" will be announcing (or be the key speaker)the party of the artist amr diab which is scheduled to happen in the sheraton hotel on the 16th of this month and a mrs mai hannawy reported that amr diab will be entring syria at 5 pm and theer will be crowds waiting for him along with most of the cable and tv channels and theer will be a parade (and then they named a couple of streets) all the way until the sheraton




and thats basically what the article says

Boycott against Turkish soaps turns aggressive
Fatima Sidiya, Arab News


JEDDAH: Residents of a village in Baha region recently smashed their satellite dishes following a scathing Friday sermon in which the imam spoke against Turkish soap operas “Noor” and “Lost Years”, which have in recent months kept the entire Kingdom fixed to their screens.

Following the Friday sermon, the local tribal chief in the village of Al-Hajr, 70 kms from the southwestern city of Baha, smashed his satellite dish and called on people to follow suit, Al-Eqtisadiah daily reported.

Tariq Ansari, a Madinah resident, said his local neighborhood mayor and preachers have been speaking about the Turkish soaps dubbed in Arabic. “It’s a popular topic. However, I haven’t given really much thought to these soaps,” he said.

Meanwhile, the imam of the Imam Malik Mosque in Jeddah said he would devote a sermon to the issue and warn people against watching Turkish soaps.

One Saudi woman, who used to watch the soaps, said she felt bored watching “Noor”, which is very long, and so quit watching. “I skipped 15 episodes and when I returned I found that nothing new took place and so I decided to quit. If the media stops all this fuss then the addiction would go away. There is no need to force people to stop watching the soaps. Just give them time and they will quit themselves,” she said.

Yusuf, a Jeddah resident, said he started watching the soaps after hearing about them in the media. “I became curious when these programs were being mentioned in the press and I started watching them. I found nothing special. There wasn’t anything attractive in the stars and what they present is far from reality,” he said.

Commenting on the aggressive reaction of some people, Yusuf said, “Being aggressive in dealing with such cases is just fruitless. This imam has not done anything positive; the people in the town would simply look for another way to watch the series.”

He added that people reacted aggressively when satellite dishes were first introduced into the Kingdom. “However, that has not stopped them. On the contrary more dishes appeared on buildings,” he said.

Umm Muhammad, a mother of six, said she allows her children to watch the program to ensure they do not become too attached to it. “If you prevent someone from something then the person would try harder in doing what has been forbidden,” she said.

Muhammad Al-Zahrani, a sociology professor at Umm Al-Qura University, said Friday sermons had an ability of affecting the public. “The psychological effect that the Friday prayers have is strong, since people are gathered in one place and sharing one aim, which is obeying Allah,” he said.

“To be a successful preacher, one has to be wise and know how to control his thinking, behavior and speech. He should choose his words carefully and should be forward thinking. He should also have the ability to understand the community and its political and psychological mindset,” he said.

Thanks so much doudi. They don´t say how many days he will stay there? I guess he won´t stay there until 16th of aougust.

Sorry mltm,doudie,Gumus,no offence guys,but it sometimes drives me nuts !
Car is burning,and they keep talking,he keeps taking turns arround the car,then getting in looking for his cell to call for help...!!!
Yes,and fire is waiting for them all that long,and the car did NOT explode YET ?!

İ watch it because its the only Turkish material ´movie/series´ we have here,so it may give an idea about life style,problems,relations,traditions...ect in the Turkish community.
Not helping much for its not an example of the regular families there,but that is what we got !

I`m Turkish and I also think that Gümüş is boring and above all it`s tooooo long.When it aired in Turkey I watched it in the beginning and got bored after a few episodes.It wasn`t a succsess in Turkey, it had an average popularity. There are far better Turkish TV series, like Yaprak Dökümü,Asmalı Konak,Çemberimde Gül Oya (this was the first Turkish TV series which aired in arabic countries),...etc.

Ofcourse there are much better.
My favourite is Yaprak Dökümü, one word, it´s super. The story, the actors, the actresses, the music all. There´s every kind of emotion in it, and it´s not a soap-opera. I wouldn´t change one episode of it to 100 episode of Gümüş.
However, now it´s on holiday, and I have to be patient for the new season. That´s why I´m watching old series on youtube.
Gümüş is not that bad either, though I watched just 28 episodes, maybe it gets too long and boring later.

in school we dont learn anything about turkey or where it is in the map. we just learn about mehmet aly if u know him & iam 10 years old what was u expecting?

sry 12 years old

hey who is doudi the first time i opened that site was yesterday

QUOTING CANLI

Quoting teaschip: Quote: Ohhh GOD!its as silly and BORİNG as The Bold and the Beautiful ´American soap series´,if you know what i mean ! Hey now...you struck a nerve. Our soaps are not silly or BORING! Tell that to Jack Abbott or Victor Neuman!

Well i´d liked Falcon Crest and Knots Landing ´not all of it actually´ more,but Bold and The Beautiful ?! Ohh God,and they are still playing it, no ?!

OMg my mom used to tell me that there was a soap opera all the girls used to watch it when she was little and they liked this one guy in it (im talking baout knots landing) that is so funny lol!! and my dad knows about it too  ut he didnt use to watch it he says its like what girls are doing about noor now (of course those girls dont include me((im not obsessed)))!!!

OMG gumus what grade are u in??? we take kamal ataturk too and i know almost all the countries in the world this year in geography was dedecated to the "world!!" im guessing youre younger than me or u dont really study!!(no offense)!!

plus u cant say u dont know where turkey is or the ottoman empire i mean tahts all they talk about in history class ´ el dawla al othamnia´ and the sultans and stuff ive taken it almost every freegin year its all they talk about omg!!!

Noor means young in estonian

heheh just to show how much influence this show has ahd u know i 2 funny things really happened about this show i think pretty soon its gonna turn into ana rabic proverb or smthg, i was watching this talk show with my mom and this lady comes and she says "ooh i got hooked up with this guy and then he proposed to me and i said yes and we becames fiancees, but then i broke it up because hes really ugly, i mean really ugly(heheh we get the point!) but his manners are really good and he cares about me, what should i do?"

so the guy answers her and says "Well, manners are really important and everything but dont marry the poor soul and then break it up again because you start remembering noor and mohanned and stuff and love stories... no we dont want that!!"

Now the other example was in polotics , my dad was reading something so he called and he was like read this comment the comment basically said "ppl open your eyes, cant you sdee what happening to us ? I guess nobody can, youre sleeping watching your knight in shining armor mohanned every day, and dreaming aboput love stories!"

I guess noor kinda made a revoloution in the arab world, and like me and my friends when we see 2 "love birds" we say theyre just like noor and mohanned!

Well, I hope peope are happy, today was the last and final episode!!!! I dont kbnow what im gonna do anymore, where int he world will i watch the streets of istanbul, and reda turkish signs and stuff??? this is a sad, sad day for me ........

Hello,
We are conducting a research survey on Noor (Gumus) and its impact on viewers. This is the first study of its kind, and you are invited to participate. If you would like to share your opinions and attitudes, please go to the following site to take the survey:

http://www.cord.edu/faculty/ibrahim/Noor

Abu Dhabi TV in broadcast into "Kurtlar Vadisi" rating, already breaking records, while the index of the leading players Necati Þaþmaz, Oktay Kaynarca and Özgü Namal, set up the throne in the hearts of viewers.

Arabic name, "Valley El Diap" in the series, "Polat Alemdar" character in the Arabic voiceover "Murad", "Elif" character "Raha", "Çakýr"  "Þakir" as changed.

Weekdays: daily 20.00 to the broadcast every night into the directory section 01.00 again in the audience one more time to meet.

NUMBER OF Turkish Serioes on Arab CHANNELS has reached to 10.
"Kurtlar Vadisi" and is still published in the Abu Dhabi channel "Acý Hayat" published in conjunction with several Arab channels has reached to 10 the number of Turkish construction sequence.

Abu Dhabi, MBC and Syria especially for channels in the Arab channels, Kurtlar Vadisi, silver, Elveda Derken, undue homeless, Genco, Yabancý Damat, Menekþe ile Halil, "Kýrýk Kanatlar" and "Kaybolan Yýllar", "Býçak Sýrtý" are running.

Every day of the Turkish series of rate increases, that indicates izlenme Arab channels officials, Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoðan´s attacks against Israel into Gaza´s shown in the reaction of the Davos is emphasized in this role.

Need of the Turkish series scenario is a high quality of the recorded image of the Arab television authorities, the withdrawal of arrays on the space of the Arab audience is intriguing, especially the music affects the audience said.

Last year, the largest Arab country to wake echo "Silver" and "Ihlamurlar Altýnda" series, thanks to more than 2 million Arab tourists to Turkey on holiday prefer to transfer to the authorities, "Kurtlar Vadisi" nde display the Girl Tower, such as the Istanbul Strait of impressive landscape that increasingly concern think will improve, he said.

Note: translated by Google translation service. I know it is broken English but that´s all I can do.

Turkish text is as follows.

Abu Dabi TV’de yayýna giren “Kurtlar Vadisi” daha þimdiden reyting rekorlarý kýrarken, dizinin baþrol oyuncusu Necati Þaþmaz, Oktay Kaynarca ve Özgü Namal, izleyicilerin gönlünde taht kurdu.

Arapça adý “Vadi El Diap” olan dizide, “Polat Alemdar” karakteri Arapça dublajýnda “Murad”, “Elif” karakteri “Raha”, “Çakýr” da “Þakir” olarak deðiþtirildi.

Hafta içi hergün 20.00’de yayýna giren dizinin tekrar bölümleri her gece 01.00’de bir kez daha izleyiciyle buluþuyor.

ARAP KANALLARINDAKÝ TÜRK DÝZÝ SAYISI 10’A ULAÞTI
“Kurtlar Vadisi” ve Abu Dabi kanalýnda halen yayýnlanan “Acý Hayat” ile birlikte çeþitli Arap kanallarýnda yayýnlanan Türk yapýmý dizi sayýsý 10’a ulaþtý.

Abu Dabi, MBC ve Suriye kanallarý baþta olmak üzere Arap kanallarýnda, Kurtlar Vadisi, Gümüþ, Elveda Derken, Yersiz Yurtsuz, Genco, Yabancý Damat, Menekþe ile Halil, Kýrýk Kanatlar, Kaybolan Yýllar, Býçak Sýrtý isimli diziler yayýnlanýyor.

Türk dizilerinin izlenme oranlarýnýn her geçen gün arttýðýný belirten Arap kanallarýnýn yetkilileri, Baþbakan Recep Tayyip Erdoðan’ýn Ýsrail’in Gazze’ye yönelik saldýrýlarý karþýsýnda Davos’ta gösterdiði tepkinin bunda rolü olduðunu vurguladý.

Türk dizilerinin gerek senaryo, gerekse de görüntü kalitesinin oldukça yüksek olduðunu kaydeden Arap televizyonlarýnýn yetkilileri, dizilerin çekildiði mekanlarýn Arap izleyiciler üzerinde büyük merak uyandýrdýðýný, özellikle müziklerin izleyicileri etkilediðini bildirdi.

Geçen yýl Arap ülkelerinde büyük yanký uyandýran “Gümüþ” ve “Ihlamurlar Altýnda” dizileri sayesinde 2 milyondan fazla Arap turistin tatilde Türkiye’yi tercih ettiðini aktaran yetkililer, “Kurtlar Vadisi”nde ekrana gelen Kýz Kulesi, Ýstanbul Boðazý gibi etkileyici manzaralarýn da bu ilgiyi giderek artýracaðýný düþündüklerini söyledi.

 By NO way Erdoðan was a fool back then, huh ?!

And you can add the Nato thing to that too !

That man is REALLY smart and incredible, he has both my fully respect and admiration

Erdogan Says Rasmussen Pick Would Damage NATO

Turkey agreed to NATO chief after Obama pledges

Ýn Turkey, new NATO chief listens to Muslims

Ýn my humble opinion, in one hand he is drawing arab´s money to Türkiye, and from the other hand, Türkiye is not taken for granted !

 who told u that we wanna be like turkish girls >>> iam saudian girl ,, we r happy with our rights

rights dosent mean being pregnant from a relation

             dosent mean life without boundries

             dosent mean having boy friend

             dosent mean drininkng parties till morning

             ..................................................................................

ISLAM gave us our rights and we dont ask silly ppl like u to teach us how to stand up for our rights,

You dont have to give up your basic values, but it makes little sense  if you insist on playing a game where all Saudi ladies have to pretend it were still the year 620.

Did you ever take a plane from any Saudi Airport, flying out of Saudi Arabia?  You embark on the plane with Saudi ladies in all sorts of hijab outfits....but it takes about 15 minutes for the whole lot to get out of veils and what not, unless they are with their husbands. Those travelling with their husbands usually change at the arrival port. The whole show is the biggest example of hypocracy I have ever seen in my life.

I lived in Saudi Arabia for 14 years; never had a word with a Saudi lady while I was there (even those ladies you open doors for, would not thank you for your chivalry). The first Saudi lady I ever exchanged words with was an extremely polite and intelligent Saudi bank teller in Dubai.  When I told her this story, we both laughed.

If you do not think there is something weird here, I suggest you have your head examined.

 totally agree with you .

Do you mean all saudi women are the same? All of you are happy like that? I must say I´m finding it strange, it´s hard to believe all women in one country think in unison. Where´s choice in it? Not all western women get pregnant outside marriage, not all have boyfriends (some have girlfriends or marry their fist boyfriend), some of us do not drink at all. You´re free to live as you wish. Can you say the same about women in SA?

+1

 This is sad..It reminds me when I was a teenager I use to wear mini skirts and my parents didn´t approve.  I would pack it in my backpack and change at a friends..

Situation of young men in Saudi is no better. The sight of young men, barred from human social contact with their female counterparts, gathered around their expensive cars, holding each others´ hands always saddened me. It seemed unreal !

I do not mean to be offensive. Most youngsters I came to know personally were intelligent kids, once you got to know them -  especially those who managed to grow out the false feeling of arrogance that their huge cash allowances  and  their closed society instilled in them.

every society around the world has bad and good points , at least we -saudis- have islamic law , which conserves : mind ,  money ,  body , religion ,  honor and property .

becouse of that we have the lowest rate of crimes , foundlings , gambling , and alcohol issues .

and any thing goes wrong in saudi it because of doing what is against islamic rules , the islam is not calling to terrorism , nor to  immorality .

well they sturr anger in me because of their everlasting suspend and i had was to stop watching it in order to refrain for destryong my T.V

 Hmm, not sure where to begin.  As far your crime rates are concern you can credit this to how severe your penalities and how rigid your system is.  Heck, if you smuggle drugs or commit armed robbery you can face being beheaded.    I have concern with a country who can´t accept the concept of seperation of religion and state.  No political parties or opposition views are permitted, no voice.  As far as womens rights...what rights?  You can´t drive, can´t go into public places where men are, can´t even be admitted to a hospital without a mans consent, can´t travel alone, must enter in the back of a bus and must be covered.  Hmm, doesn´t sound like honor to me.  But you don´t know any different...that´s your society.  I remember a classmate here from Saudi...and her stance were quite similiar to what I mentioned above.  She was hoping to find a Turk to save her.

 all of these cases are not true , even the women can´t drive but they can do alot of things alone .

she can travel alone - even it is prohibited in islam - , she can  be admitted to a hospital without a mans consent , and we don´t have buses in our transfer system to put women in the back ,  in some cities -like almadinah and maccah - there are few buses and all women and families set in front .

and why is it all about women and their rights ? why is some people wanna die to see saudi women alone ? don´t you have enough females  ? or you can´t stand seeing women with Chastity and pureness .

if you have to blame the situation in saudi you have to blame islam  , and when you dare and blame islam we will talk then .

and about the poor fatima which want a turkish guy to save her , i´m really sorry for her  , i really blame her family because they let movies and tv shows wash her pure brain .

i don´t offense turkish i really like them , but evey country has good and bad people , but there are alot of saudis how will make her happy 100 times more than any turiksh guy can do ever.

but the media - for sorry-  works very well and very hard to destroy the good picture of saudi and saudis .

How do your learned scholars  explain the ban on lady driving, when all Moslems know,

1. there were no motor vehicles at the time of prophet Mohammad, hence the ban can not rationally be based on a command of the holy book or any islamic law.

2. camels were the closest available alternative at the time,

3. Hatica and Aisha,  Prophet´s wives, both rode camels; in fact, Hatica probably owned a herd of them,

Are you sure your scholars are not making up divine rules to suit themselves, all in the name of God, out of top of their hats ? If they are, you should know it is a cardinal sin.

In Turkia, qualified moslem ladies are free to drive. Do you think we will all end up burning in hell?

sorry : see the next replay 

Your question is similar to asking "can men be good cooks?´ . What do you think?

Yes, ladies can also be good drivers, so long as they do not cover their faces and eyes while driving.....To say the opposite,  would be unfairly undermining 50% of god´s creation.

Abudy, I have a better idea. To greatly improve road safety, ban men from driving as well. The number of car accidents will fall dramatically

From what you´re saying, if ladies drove in SA, it would cause rapes and escalation of crime? How? Do you mean that Saudi males do not rape because they don´t see driving women? And, if women drove, males would suddenly feel the urge to commit a crime?

I´m sorry, but there´s just one explanation to why Saudi women are banned from driving and travelling on their own - you discriminate them, want to control them and treat them like farm animals, or, in other words, you lack self-confidence.

I´m sorry for harsh words but I got really angry at the thought that I might have been born a Saudi and be treated like a possession, not an equal human being. Ughhh

 according to many articles and reports , women are bad driver .

you know , it´s great idea  because in saudi  one person killed  every hour by car accident . do you believe that ? so your idea will keep the people alive  here LOOL .

and you know , the female will be easy for criminal when she is drive alone or travel alone , that´s how the rate of crime will rise , not like what you mentioned . 

you´re sorry and you should be (there is no need to harsh words )

want to control them and treat them like farm animals ???

it is bad thing to say .

when you prevent anyone you love from doing bad thing , he will think that you don´t love him , but you do that for his good .

we do that for women´s good too .

the women in saudi are treated like queens

she doesn´t need to work  and push herself in trouble , the man should go to work instead his woman .

she doesn´t need to spend a cent on herself or her kids , the man should spend all money on his woman and family.

she doesn´t need to drive , the man should drive for her or bring a special driver .

and it will be your good luck if you have been born in saudi so you´ve got the opportunity to be a muslim and feel how life is great when you´re  amuslim .

and down there you´ll find out how many times i modified this replay

I really can not beleive my eyes:

"when you prevent anyone you love from doing bad thing , he will think that you don´t love him , but you do that for his good .

we do that for women´s good too ."

This is obviously restricting the freedoms of a citizen. It is so obvious that men are regarded as citizens but women are half citizens. 

I am very sorry to say this but these are thoughts of a sick mind.

Well, it is the worst country among muslim ones so I dont know about those nice things you wrote. In most discussions where people are argueing about islam this country is always mentioned by those who are against muslims because it is the easiest example to show what is wrong with islam.

That´s absolutely out of logic and not just absurd but ABSURD.

And what is that question? DISCRIMINATION, in EVERYTHING women can be as good as men. Just they need practice because in the whole world they are let to be equal with men not so long ago.

AVOIDING DOES NOT SOLVE THE PROBLEM, JUST MAKES IT MORE SERIOUS.

I can tell that maybe there are wise men in Saudi Arabia who can make a woman happy but you are not one of them. You totally lack of logic but that is not your fault, they taught you just this in your "nice country"...

I hope under this name abudy99 someone is acting specially because I cant believe someone can be this stupid. Which articles? Saudi arabian? So they are telling you how to think and you cant have your own opinion. What a great country.

these countries should be isolate themselves with  something like chinese wall..not permit all western impurity to damage their thoughts..

They do not want to isolate themselves....

It would be unfair if other ladies of the world miss the chance to experience the company of gloriously divine and holy Saudi men.

They only want to isolate their girls;  for the ladies´ own good, of course. 

 This mean they want to keep themselves out from the rest of the world...where exactly in Koran is written that women shouldnt have the right to drive? They need an  Ataturk

He´s already explained that it´s not written in Koran but results from concerns for road safety and crime rates. Appparently women are too precious to let them drive, work, show their faces, have money of their own. Basically, they should be kept at home, look after children, serve men and be thankful for it.

I´ve never been to Saudi Arabia, but I´d like to in order to see if it´s really like that. I cannot believe that all women accept that, I´m sure there are some who manage their own lives not asking men what to do. Or not?

Who knows? Turkey is islamic country but is so different...

Actually Turkey is a secular country with Muslim majority. But religion and the state are separated. Of course some citizens are more religious than others and that creates the illusion that Turkey as a whole is religious but it´s not true. Sure Islam, being the dominant religion does influence different aspects of life, but that´s not an overwhelming influence.

Saudi, on the other hand, is a country without religious minorities (almost) there are no Christian churches, converts are punished by death, a country where religious influence is so strong that less than 1% of women have higher education, many have none as apparently they don´t need it since they live to serve men. Our Saudi advocate said women are queens that do not have to do anything, but what kind of queen is deprived of free will and the right of making her own choices?

 Actually, one could say that religion and state aren´t seperated at all in Turkey. Religion and state are one, but in another sort of dimension: the religion (the Sunni Islam that is! which is important to know) is subject to the state and the state controls all forms of ´official religion´, such as education and giving the offices of important leading figures in islam such as imam. The imam actually is a state-official in Turkey! He is given his job by the state and is also paid from state money.

This seems a good system, but in fact it shows the close connection of Turkey with its religion and also shuts its eyes for other religions in Turkey. In the east for example, we have many Alevi families, who are more related to Shia Islam than Sunni Islam. However, in Turkish ´religious state system´, they simply do not exist. Same is for christians and jews. By saying ´non-existent´, I dont mean that the Turkish state or people deny the existence of them, but there is no official body for their rights and duties, or a fund for their mosques or ´cem evleri´ or churches. If a state controls a certain religion (Sunni Islam in this case), at  the same time it supports that religion. Therefore it favours that one religion, and I believe ´secular´ (or even laicist for that matter) isnt the correct word for the turkish system, but that is just a matter of definition anyhow

The idea behind secularism in the Turkish case, is that when religion is controlled in an official way, the ´folk Islam´ will eventually become less important than the official state-Islam, and when Islam is taken out of public life but reduced to personal spheres, eventually ´people will become secularized´ as well. Unfortunately Im afraid that its quite the opposite.

i didnt excpect my reply will cause all of this >>>>>>>>

WHO told u that ladies in arab countries dont drive , in saudi it is only tradition that will change by time like u turk when u forgot  ur islamic tradition by time ..

iam driving since 3 years but when iam in need ..and when the time my father , brother or even my husband not home , ( with an excuse from one of them ) ......

plz TURK dont talk about things that u dont know the  its DETAILS  and the right details ....

i respect the islam becz it is  teaching us how respect men whether relatives or not ... we respect their right (men ) before our rights , thats we r happy in our life .....

dont try to ignore the nature of women( at the same time nature of the life ) belonging to the men .

who would not be happy to be treated like queens ....( drivers , money , clothes , travelling , studing ....so many things u didnt try as turk but the kurd i guss they do )

loudly : WE R MORE THAN HAPPY ....

wish u all luck ....sorry of my E

You sure have a big mouth, but no brains.....you definitely deserve what you are getting !

 I hope you do realize that is for the lucky people who have money.

And it is shocking how women get brainwashed and start to think men have more right than women.  It is in the nature of men and women that they are not THE SAME (eþit deðiller), after all the bodily and mental features are totally different and therefor men and women usualyl are more suitable for different jobs. However, being DÝFFERENT, doesn´t mean that you aren´t equal when it comes to rights and worths! (eþit deðerinde!).

To think that a man´s rights go before the woman´s rights, is just sick and a way of thinking that is laid upon you from birth. You think this way because you have never experienced otherwise and are told that this is the only and right way. Ofcourse, that counts for me as well, I am also a child of Western thought. However, if there is a system where men have more rights than women, and both are happy (hard to believe, any woman who has a good brain-capacity will want more from life than being controlled by a man), and there is a system where men and women have the same rights and also both are happy, which one would you choose?

 And it is my personal conviction that the louder you scream, the less you are sure of what you are saying..

O M G

For the last words - turkish women DO experience these things.

When someone is not acceptable he/she begins to think being superior...

correct +1

By the way, isnt Faruk a male name?

Faruk, some people (women are people too) want more of life that belonging to someone. You´re saying that women are happy when somebody provides for them. What about wanting to pursue your goals and ambitions? If your kitchen and your husband is your whole world and you´re happy about it - fine. But not all women are happy like that, some want to travel, learn, work when and how they please. Don´t say it´s natural law that women belong to men. Only things belong to people, not other people. No man is better than a woman and no woman is better than a man only by virtue of their gender. We are equal, we are able to do the same things in life. Do the same jobs, earn the same money, be respected and treated fair.

 I don´t think it is even close to possible to have an argument against that! Well said, DDciðim

 I wouldn´t!  Where´s the sweetness of self-sufficiency in that? Where´s the selfrespect? Where´s the sweetness of buying something that you worked for? And.. where´s the joy of taking the bus! Swearing at the busdriver, looking at other people, being part of society?

It would be a dirt on my personal pride and selfrespect to take money from my father or partner, which they worked hard for, and spend it on a driver, clothes and holidays, if I could provide for it myself as well! It would be like living in a  golden cage and doing tricks and acrobatics, just because people have paid for your exquisite dinners and because the cage you are kept in is made of golden.  

Even though our country has generall good relations with Saudi...there has always remaines a concern about the human rights in your country. The abuse and treatment of prisoners, restriction on freedom of speech, denial of the right of citizens to change their government, discrimination against women and religous minorites and suppression of workers rights.  The attitude alone that you take that men are superior is quite sickening.  We don´t need to media to destroy the good picture of saudi or saudis, when your doing a heck of a time reconfirming what the media already conveys.

You paint this picture that Saudi has very little crime, let me remind you of 911.  It just so happened that 15 out of 19 suicide bombers were Saudis.  Your countries call to anti-terrorism has been questioned on many occassions.  I understand that every country and including my own has good and bad people.  But your arrogance about how Saudi men will treat their woman 100x better than a Turk...I´m not buying.  I don´t think Turkish men suppress their women.

Anyone who tells me that this is the Islamic way to eat noodles can go and suck an egg !

They have made a circus act, out of a beautiful religion.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFkblouoRjE&feature=related - 99k

NO COMMENT !

I think it could be a set-up video. But then again, I can´t think of any other way for them to eat noodles without showing something of their face when being around men ´other than husband´.

 Its true ..

 Please tell me they don´t have to eat noodles like that.  Those poor women!

 They have to eat like this in public 

it is so strange when you call for "accept the other opinions and cultures" then you didn´t.

why don´t you  consider  "women driving" as the other opinion or other culture ?

2nd : do you think that you don´t have problems in you´re countries bigger than "women driving in saudi " ? i bet you have ,  so , why don´t you take care of your problems and don´t worry , there are alot of "liberal people"  here , and they don´t find a topic to talk about other than "women driving" . so relax , take it easy

p.s. : when you talk about 9/11 and saudis how has got involved , i think you know that we call those criminals "out of law" and we - in saudi - have a great system to deal with those bad people . and we - government and  public - are togather to fight them and their  bad ideology .

saudi is religious country as you say , the same as vatican , can you build a mosque in it ?

but if you are a christian-  or whatever religion you are - and want to do your prayer in your place no one can talk to you , it´s completely your right  .

there are lots of churches in western compounds .

p.s. : why we don´t talk about the Religious freedom for muslims in many western country ? is there any ?

yes , just from islam to another religion  , it´s not saudi thing it´s islamic law .

where did you get this 1% ??? i´m sure it is false , women get the same education of men , and they have more majors than men , check your false infos

in fact , men are serving women , in islamic low , the wife is not forced to serve her man , if she want to serve him it will be a kind from her , if she didn´t want she shouldn´t do a thing , but the man has to work and bring money for his wife .

thank you to call me that i´m really proud to be saudi advocate .

the women are totally free to choose their life , in education , work , marrage , choosing her man , eating , dressing ,etc .

 but there are some limits , the limits applied on men and women as well .

these limits made by god and his prophet muhammad -peace be upon him - and they are Compatible with soul , mind and human nature .

 that´s totally not true , you can come and visit any family resturant in saudi , and see how do they eat .

it´s bad to be not accurate in your infos when you talk about any topic .

 Then you can tell us how covered women are eating...

 FWIW....when I was in Morocco veiled women rarely ate in public.  When they did they did not face the public, they faced the wall, or they had a separate place with females only to eat in.

 some of saudis women eat in public like what alameda says , some of them discover their faces when they eat .

it´s personal choice .

Seems i have missed some interesting debate here  lol

Have no time to read them all now, kinda late but will do shortly inþallah

Good to see you back D_K 

And Welcome to TLC abudy99 

 i take it a chance to thank you for the greatest turkish website ever , i can´t tell how much is my happiness when i´ve found it , even while i´m so busy with my master´s research but you´ll find me here everyday , you are the best .. keep it up .

Errrmmmm, well actually, we know lol

OK was a joke, seriously, TLC is our proud actually, we try to keep it that way

We thank admin  and TLC members for that.

And we´d love to see you here too everyday 

 Totally agree with you  !

Ýslam gave us our rights, and we shouldnt allow people to take ANY of them away from us !

ALLAH gave us rights, no human should have the right to take any of them away !

We can stick to our holly Kuran and keep those rights..yes ?

PS: Ým really out of here now, just couldnt resist lol

I don´t think anyone here wants to take your rights away. What I can´t accept is lack of choice - like the fact that you´re sentenced to death if you convert from Islam. If a woman wears burka, doesn´t work and believes she´s lower in hierarchy than men then she probably deserves what she gets. But what rights are you talking about if you can get flogged for not wearing burka, beaten for disobeying your husband or killed if you lose your faith? Are those Islamic laws? If so, congratulations for a breakthrough in human rights.

The way you live your life should be a mixture of ciurcumstances and your choices. If your only choice is either to conform or die, it makes me question the value of such life. It´s not life, it´s slavery. If you choose to be Muslim, wear a scarf, refrain from pork, wash all the places you should and pray 5 times a day - there´s nothing wrong with that. it´s what you chose and what you think is best for you. If you think you are inferior to men, it´s your feeling, but don´t make me believe that so am I.

To sum up, if your choice is taken away from you, your life is just slavery. Sure, with the time you might learn to accept it but it is sick anyway.

 Ã dont know if you were addressing this to me or to farukdemirhan DD

Ýf you are a believer in any sort of religion, not just Ýslam you would have your choices of course but within the rules of that religion.

Ýts ridiculous to join a religion and to claim believing in it, but at same time not practice its rules, in that case you should pick another one that suites you, and if there is none then you can stop believing if you choose.

Religions dont take your freedom away, or your choices, they giving you them within their rules.

Same as law and countries, you live in the country you live in, free and have your choices within the law of that country

Ýf you obay the law that doesnt mean you are not free or your choices have been taken away from you !

Ýn my comment above i meant, we as Muslims have rules by Ýslam, and sometimes they are actually taking away from us by the power of anything else ´law in some countries, man in another, society..etc´ and they take Ýslam an excuse for that !

So by same excuse , by the rules of Quran then we as women shouldnt allow this.

Ý addressed that to  farukdemirhan and i believe she as Muslim would understand what i meant very well !

Ýf they take those rights claiming that its religion then by that religion and the proof of our law´ Quran´ we must demands those rights and get them back not just watch and believe they do the right thing!

We can read, we have brains, so we should know and understand very well what is ours and what is not and not just taking anything been told to us as granted !

How come ALLAH gave us rights and others take them away ?!

We believe in ALLAH and Mohammed SAV not anyone else...and that is our law our limits to say what are our rights and what are our duties as women !

 Actually in Quran it said no one is superior or better than the other ´men or women´ except by their good nature

Meaning for example judge is better than a thif no matter if the judge male or female , white black ...etc or the thif is male/female, white/ black ..etc

And for abudy, no one ´´muslims´´ against applying the islamic law as long as you do it without any personal issues !

As for converts are punished by death its same case also in Christianity, they just dont apply their religion rules at the West thats all.

 Still in here , they do away from the authorities, Christians converted to Ýslam dont lead a happy life if they managed to escape with their lives !

And as for Saudi women,no one wants to see them, thats not the point, but at Rasul SAV time, they were not hidding women so no one would see and claimed its for their own goods!

Women used to walk alone without any guards or men being along with them, had their own decisions too in life and work!

Who made men the superior to decide what should women do or dont ?!

Ýf its not allowed that women do Hij while they wearing Niqab then when do you force niqab on them by law ?!

Ýt HÝJ where one go to ALLAH house, and ALLAH said no niqap there, so why on earth they are forced to cover themselves else where?!

No place is more holier than Mecca !

And in what book it says women should be beaten for not wearing even hijab not niqab ?

Why the El amr Bil ma3roof  ´ the religious police´ hitting women who dont wear it ?

We have Quran between us, why dont we take it as a judge then ?

Ýts a joke that you blame Fatima´s family for allowing her to watch the TV and thats why she got brainwashed.

You cant shut their eyes too, can you ?!

OK, she would read Quran, Sunna, sira and she would understand she has rights more than she granted, then what would be your excuse for that ?!

Stop women from reading Quran and knowing their religion?

Ý dont say Fatima is right, im sure there are many good Saudi men over there, as there is many bad Turks too same as every where, there are goods and bads but i believe as she is living the extreme she also has developed extreme thoughts of her own.

And its not healthy.

And about that driving thing...actually i read some reasons for it that i cant even write them here !

Why do you think our Saudi friends here seem to differ from the rest, even from other moslems...when it comes to understanding and interpreting Islamic rules.

Could it be that they are full of crap from another teaching, which may be somewhat different from Islam. What exactly is a Vahhabi?

 there is a HAdith that our mother "ayiþa " says : "in hajj we were discovering our faces all the time , but when we passed by strangers we cover our faces "

that will answer you´re questions .

and as you know we take our religion not just from quran , but from quran and sunna , even that we have evidence from quran that order women to cover their faces , i´m sure you know it , but some people wants to explain the quran as they like not as it is right .

and what is the advantage of wearing hejab without covering face ? cover the hair ? how cares about hair .

alhejab has existed to prevent stranges curious stares , does that works with turkish hejab ?

i saw turkish women here in madina wear turkish hejab , they are more beautiful and attractive  than with no hejab .

you know , not all women´s hairs are  beauty , but their faces often like a piece of full moon , so they should cover faces to Achieve the advantage of wearing hejab .

you have a good experience in arabic pronuonsing (as you said ma3roof ) , but for sorry you have no idea about what (El amr Bil ma3roof  ) does in matter of fact .

all you know is what you hear from media , which attacks (El amr Bil ma3roof  ) round the clock .

if you´re Foreigner and none muslim , they will understand your religion and never talk to you .

if you´re Foreigner muslim , they will understand your (mathhab) and never talk to you .

give me one example of any turkish women (or any Foreigner wonen) how stoped by (El amr Bil ma3roof  ) because of her hejab, if you find one i give a guarantee when she sues them she will win the case .

if a saudi woman  shows in public without covering face they will come and ask her politely to cover her face - as it is the low in saudi - if she would´t they will give her a little advice about hejab , nothing further . unless - like some bad girls - she´s being immoral ,or insists to do bad things in public they will ask her to go to thier department with police man and let her sign in a piece of paper that she won´t never do it again and call her father , let him know about the case , and take her home .

i challenge anyone to bring one honest case of the religious police´ hitting women because of not covering the face .

the problem as i mentiond is the media who fights to death trying to  suspend (El amr Bil ma3roof  ) to do what they like  , and they won´t inshallah ,   the religious police means protect the morality , if they are suspended you will hear about strange cirmes in the land of to holy mosques .

don´t you believe that in islam the parents have the full responsibility  of their family ? that is what alqur´an and alsunna say .

so , the family must protect his members from seeing or hearing or reading (even eating ) anything that damage their  mind , body and moral . otherwise what is  the responsibility of parents then ? feed thier kids and forecd them to go to school and sleep early and thats it ?

i don´t say shut their eyes , but there is educational ways to prevet the kids from bad stuff  and bring them a good Alternatives , so they will rise in clean and pure Environment .

I happen to think this is backwards..these women get more stares with them on. 

After reading some of your posts it sounds like our media is right on target with alot of their reportings...

 it´s not your media , it´s ours for sorry

Canli, that exactly was my point - if you are free to CHOOSE your religion, it means you make a deliberate decision how you want your life to look. If you are ok with Islamic rules and want to follow them because of your personal choice, it´s fine. Every person decides what´s best for them and what kind of things they want to give up to have the life they want. I was speaking against countries where you are not free to choose your religion or you´re facing death. That is something I cannot comprehend.

I am somewhat surprised that you mentioned that conversion from christianity is also punishable by death. I have never heard about that. I tried to google it but without success. As you know, although I was raised in a Catholic family, I became an atheist and so I´m not really knowledgeable about Christianity except from what I learnt at religion classes.

Can´t say that I have ever known a Christian to convert and be killed, not in modern day society..

Even the |Amish give their children a choice. Ok, I remember from history classes that people were forced into Christianity about a 1000 years ago and then there was the inquisition, but that was ages ago and was condemned by Christianity later on

 Never heard of it either....but their are many Christian sects, so who knows.  I am pretty comfortable in saying that Catholics will not kill you if you convert.

don´t you believe in  Multi-denominational , it is good thing when it comes in Matters of fiqh ( islamic jurisprudence ) , there are four famus fiqh school in islam , hanafi - maliki , shafi´i , hanbali .

but all these schools concurrent about 2 points :

1. the Sources of legislation are qur´an , sunna ,scholarly consensus , and analogy.

2. Fundamentals of Religion - or matters of faith-  are (one and only) , see here about ( Akide: Anlamý ve Önemi ) http://www.islamhouse.com/tp/154849 .

about this question you can find some articles about wahhabi and muhammad bin abdoul wahab .

 here : http://saaid.net/monawein/en/index.htm 

thank you

 Oh thank God!  Not planning on coverting though anytime soon.

 So you won´t be going to the big Baptist Revival with me next weekend?  YOU PROMISED!!

 One of my friend after mariage she converted from ortodox to islam and now she is türbanlý...she doesnt know anything about ortodox religion and absolutly nothing about islam  recently i sent her Coran in our language to read it because its a shame not to know about your (actual) religion

 Oh, I didn´t mean that.  I meant I wouldn´t convert to another religion..ok I was thinking about becoming a witness.  Of course I´ll go with you.  Is this an all womens retreat with BYOB...I hope they have gambling again. 

It´s been a long week...I thought you referred to as baptism revival...The answer is NO then!!!  Sorry, I can´t speak in tongues.

 Seems a little silly to convert to a religion and you haven´t even read the literature.  What is even more sad about some people, is that they are born into a religion and they never read or learn about it and what is worse is they never question it.  I think it is healthy for people to question their religion or any tradition for that matter. 

That´s the thing many people do - convert because of marriage without knowing what duties and responsibilities follow from that

 Don´t worry, after the beer and dancing you will be speaking tongues and do a little snake charming too!

Actually it does, and i have read the verses too in Arabic of course as i remember called Matta Bible ?!

Ý will try to find them out if i can.

Ýt happen here, Christians cant convert to Ýslam freely without escaping from where they live and change identity too, and be doomed to stay away from their families for the rest of their lives or else Church would find out about them...and sadly that is another story im afraid !

 Prime examples; my sister-n-laws!  Both became Catholic to raise their kids Catholic as far as sending them to private catholic schools.  But neither of them go to church....

 Actually Alpha i dont exactly know !

Specially we both understand arabic well..in fact its our language...so i cant blame it on the language !

 Perhaps that is more a societal thing rather than a religious doctrine?  Not sure.... I just know that Catholics will not kill you if you convert.  Like I said, I can´t speak for some small Christian sects/cults.  I know that many will "shun" individuals for leaving.

 Do they want to come the revival too?

If you have some time, I´d be happy to read about it - one more reason not to like Christianity

(Did you mean Matthew´s Gospel?) I know Christians faced death for NOT renouncing Christianity at Roman times, and eternity in hell if they reject it but I don´t know of a verse in Bible or a country that killes (or used to kill Christian converts)

Oh, great, just what Saudi women need...to go from one extreme and convoluted synthetic expectation to another.    Sisters, take it from a modern girl who has been in the military, is Middle-Eastern, religious, young, and married with three kids: no soap opera will ever help you.  Ideas may be the spark of change, but it the Wallstreet Journal will keep the fires lit so you may cook by them. Noor is not an investment; Noor is an indurable good, whose utility will fade when women are consumed with ideas and emotions they know not how to apply.

 Ã dont really know if its Matthew´s Gospel or not, in Arabic its Matta, from the looks of it it maybe same.

Ý will search what i read, i find hard time understand it in arabic so let alone in another language lol

Christian converters dont face death by the country, i mean not by our authorities, and also Church never declare it too of course its against the law  but it happened and when people who converted to Ýslam fail to escape or been cought then they disappear Church deny anything to do with it, or claims they aknowledge their mistake after they talked to them and now they live at the Monastery by their own choice and refuse to meet anyone!

Actually NO, it doesnt answer my question

Ý asked you if you can point out ayat or hadith by Rasul SAV to say that women should cover their faces, and you didnt.

Know why ? Because there is NONE !

As i said between us are Quran and Hadith ´strong ones´ nothing else, not personal opinions or some philosophical opinions why women should wear niqab

Because as much as i´d appreciate those opinions i would actually follow ALLAH order only not anyone else, unless of course i adopt those opinions as well !

So even if women were such a beauty wearing hijab, ALLAH would know that and would order it if HE wanted !

Rasul´s wives RA were wearing niqab thats explain what Ayþe RA said but that doesnt mean it applies to all women too as well .

 Arabic is my first language actually, and i would give you examples on how El amr Bil ma3roof  treats women if you want, and its not that nice !

Let alone, as you say Saudi is a religious country, rules by Ýslamic law, so...there is no rule in Quran or Hadith says you should force women to wear hijab nor niqap

Ý mean, there is no Had ´punishment´..so why on earth you force them there represented in  El amr Bil ma3roof  ?

 Yes i do believe that, not only in Ýslam but its every parents responsibility, but the question till what age ?!

Would parents monitor their kids and be responsible about what they are doing till kids became old men and women too ?!

Parents responsibility toward their children is to bring them up and support them till they stand up on their own feet, then Children who are now grown ups take that responsibility and would be their own responsibility

Yes of course parents rules doesnt end, but it change

Rasul SAV taught us how to bring up our kids...7, 7 and then 7...he didnt say till the day they die !

Could you be more specific? What is being immoral, what is doing bad things in public? Bad girls? And why her father? If she is over 18 or maybe 21 and unmarried will they still call her father? Does her father own her or something?

I think I just felt offended So please explain yourself in more detail. Because what you just said above is a violation of equal human rights and simply sick.

 As you may know, insults are not allowed in that site

You can have your opinions any way you like and you will be grant respect  here, it doesnt matter that we or anyone else agree with your opinions or not, but will be respected !

Ýts not welcome here to insult others here, and you should know that because you accepted it in order to join TLC .

So please modify your post and express yourself in a way that is welcome here, or else your post will be deleted !

 It is taken care of.

Members, please be aware of forum rules. We may all have different opinions (like CANLI and I ) but there is no need to call each other names. You may find someones thoughts to be very disturbing and ofcourse you are entitled to respond to it, but please refrain from personal comments.

Mhsn Supertitiz, you modified your post at the moment I deleted it. However since your new post is not much different and your reason for edit still shows the same words.. I see no point in restoring your comment.

1. if you want to understand the qur´an an hadith as you like there won´t be any evdience against anything you like . e.g : the addict will ask you : if you can point out ayat or hadith that proof the heroin is prohibited  ? you can´t.

Know why ? Because there is NONE !

the qur´an an sunna  must explaind by specialist (3ulama´ ) otherewise there is no need for prophets , it will be enough to print copies of quran and that´s it .

you will cancel alot of islamic sciences : the tafseer , where we can find quran explanation .

the fiqh , where we can find the Detailed matters of islamic shari´a

osol alfiqh , where we know how to use the quran and sunna for  deduction .

sciences of hadith , where can Distinguish the good from weak hadiths .

you will cancel generations of specialist beginning from sahabah to the last one which is me kidding .

you can´t understand the qura´n and hadith without going back to the understands of the Best centuries , they attended The revelation of the Qur´an and took it from the mouth of the prophet , they asked him about the qur´an and shari´a , so they had more knowledge of qur´an and sunnah than anyone came after them .

so it´s wrong when you say that anyone can take qur´an and sunnah , and extract the orders from them . unless the qualified poeple , and i guess me and you are not that qualified .

so here you will find proofs from qur´an and sunnah for covering face ( it´s a small arabic book since you are arabi   .  http://www.al-eman.com/islamlib/viewchp.asp?BID=314&CID=1

yes please give me some , and true ones please , not like what we always read in newspapers , i know most of them are false .

that is you question , and you answer it very well by saying :

i agreed 

even it has good means , but i couldn´t find this in hadith books , please check .

 yes they call her father , and no he doesn´t own her , but he still her father . she lives in his house and she must respect family rules .

if any girl does a crime , is it offended when she´s taken to police station ? or to jail if she deserves it ? 

 But how can you know that these ulema handle out of religiosity or for power?

And think of the Iranian-shia system, where everybody is entitled to ´taqlid´ and choose their own mujtahid. That makes that many people in the same society follow different views of explanation of Quran and Sunna, because every mujtahid can explain it differently because of the existence of ijtihad.  Ofcourse, the system in itself seems good: instead of makign everybody follow a muqallad, everybody can choose the mujtahid that is closest to your own thoughts, and because people change through the ages, the fetwas and opinions of the new mujtahids will be very different from those of the muqallad. But isn´t it very dangerous that a religion is made so difficult that it can only be explained to the people by ulema?

 I was wondering what you understand from ´crime´, my dear.

..............as long as the same is done when a "boy" has committed a "crime".  Does daddy get called in that instance????  Somehow I think I already know the answer but please...do tell.

 ofcourse they call his father, and no he doesn´t own him, but he is still his father. He lives in his house and he must respect family rules

 the islam is very simlpe and clear , and allah says about qur´an (( [17] And We have indeed made the Qur-an easy to understand and remember: then is there any that will receive admonition?  )) suratul qamar .

what difficult is , when we dicover a new problem or matter , who can decide it´s (halal or haram ) other than ulama´ , and how can they decide ? by analogy with old shari´a sentences , or by major rule of islam .

 For me it is simple and clear, an infidel will burn

 perfect answer

yes of course they will call his father too .

(would prefer an applause emotion but this will have to do.....admin, are you listening???)

 i didn´t get it , sorry

 silly me! 

 "WE"???  Did you write your own version? 

 I don´t think the Qur´an is simple at all, but it is easy to understand at one point: the one who doesn´t believe, will pay for it! So relevant sura´s for me, an infidel, are very simple. That´s what I meant to say.

But abudy99, we still didn´t learn what ´immorality´ and ´crime´ is that a girl commits on the street. I understand murder and rape are crimes, but I dont think you were referring to that.

 Divine plural

I´m still wondering what crime these chicks are committing where all that has to be done is a simple call to daddy!  And what age?  16? 20? 32? 45?

 are you serious with this question ?

it´s a translation of holy quran verse .

 Dad will be called in all ages if the girl has not married yet or the dad not died. In that case the brother or uncle will come ofcourse. I don´t think the mother is called by a police officer!

 you can find a  quran and read it , you will discover how easy it is , or how infidel you are

thanks for internet , here is english and turkish translation for quran :

http://quran.al-islam.com/Index/indexe1.asp

I read the version by Abdullah Yusuf Ali in English, and a Dutch version a few years ago, but the Dutch one I didn´t finish.

And I discovered how awesome it is to be an infidel in this life

 thanks of islamic law , it´s so unusual to find a criminal women , you won´t find women in police deparments to call dads for . 

 I suppose you dont find many criminal men there either then.

 All my questions are serious. 

And if you believe that then you will believe that I would know it´s a verse from your holy book! 

Of course you won´t. Who will dare to uncover her face if she´s facing flogging? That´s how totalitarian governments work. Just think - evil, fat assed Americanes used to have slaves - if a slave disobeyed his master, he could kill him or her, so not many tried disobeying (not because they liked their position but because of fear). It is the same in Saudi - women have to cover themselves, people from Muslim families stay Muslims not because they want to - but because they will die if they don´t. (Not all of them of course, I´m sure most Saudi men are happy that they are men in a county where men have more rights than women).

I have a question - in Christianity, they say you will be judged after you die, not during your life. Isn´t it the same with Islam? If so, how come people are killed for converting from Islam? Isn´t it Allah´s job to judge them, not people´s? I can understand that people hurting other people should be punished - |I have no problem with capital punishment for murderers, rapists etc. But what kind of crime is it to show your face or believe in the Gods you choose?

 it´s your decision , as allah says in qur´an (( [256] Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects Evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.  ))

and you did´t descover yet how will it be when some one was an infidel  , in the other life

So how does it go with killing those who reject religion?

 you will find some , but not like the western countries .

according to last report i have heard , there is 1 crime every 2 minutes in england  

what is this ??? england or hell ??

If your god is a GOOD one, I will discover in the other life what the value of being a GOOD PERSON is, instead of saying you believe.

But I wonder what Allah is saying here:

Surah 2:

6. As to those who reject faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe.

7. Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur).

To me it sounds like it is not my fault that I cannot see the truth, for allah has covered my eyes!

 There are multiple crimes every second! Most women dare to share their hair and face

 it´s been long discussion , and pardon me , it´s the last one i´ll take .  

 if she´s facing flogging?   oh my god , who said so ?? you have to correct you infos miss

so you say there are no one has a Convinced in islam ?

all musilm are muslims because they scary of death , or because they are happy that they are men in a county where men have more rights than women ? what a judgment !

all muslims are happy in islam because it´s the right way to live , and everyone takes his right , believe it or not , women have more rights in islam than men .

yes allah will  judge them after they die , and allah orders us to kill who leave islam .

when weman shows her face she didn´t Obey allah´s order , but what is the punishment ? nothing we should do more than adivce her to obey allah´s order , and allah will  judge her .

islam doesn´t order to kill anyone reject islam , but the muslims they leave islam .

 we didn´t consider discovering face or hair as a crime it is a sin .

but seriously , where is all noise about how democracy is the greatest and The fittest system in the world ?

why can´t democracy contol these uncontroled criminals ?

even there are cams over london , but nothing then more and more crimes .

 oh sorry , i didn´t know that you´re blind

you can see the truth but you don´t want to follow it .

any way as i mentioned it´s been long discussion , intresting topic , great poeple to discuss with .

but as you know , it´s a life time topic ,  we can´t finish it at all you know , and i´m so busy with my master´s research (please wish me  that i finish it on the time , i´m in the deadline ) .

i´m sorry if i bothered anyone of you .

see you in next topics ( but that life time ones please

 And who told you that i didnt do that ?!

Ý agree with you here on what you´ve said, and after all that Ýmams, or Sheikh said Niqap isnt an order from ALLAH but Hijab is

So again you never answered my question why do you force women to cover their faces even its not an order from ALLAH

And you never answered my question as well why do you punish them even there is no punishment for that in neither Quran nor Sunna ?!

Ýts not same as heroin, in heroin imams neaded to measure the identical in order to say it is prohibited  because its not mentioned in Quran nor hadith, its something new

But hijab is already mentioned so if ALLAH wanted women to cover their faces as well HE could have said so...but HE didnt, so why would we need to measure anything when we already have our rule ?

That is a first, and a second, yes i agree with you we do take our knowledge that way from Quran,Sunna and from hadith, fiqh science ...etc

But also those all have 2 sources Quran and Sunna they are our base, and as you may know there is no imam can say anything without bring the evidence for what he says from Quran or Sunna or else it wont be accredited.

The greatness about Ýslam is its a religion of minds meaning it talks to my mind then given me the rule for that, i would able to add 1+1 =2...never 3 thats why we be convinced about what we do and what we believe

Thats why i dont feel bad when my brother for example would inherit double what i would .

Ý understand why ALLAH ordered us this, and im convinced about it.

There is nothing called ´because its how it is´

Thats why we believe and do what we are convinced to do

So when Ýmams say Hijab is a rule from ALLAH, its easy to get the proofs from Quran and sunna, there are ayat in Quran saying that, and also at hadith

But when you say niqab is also a rule because Ayþa RA was wearing it...that wouldnt make it a rule!

Rasul´s wives were wearining Niqab and that is happened after Ömer RA saw one of them ´Sawda i believe´ when she was walking alone and said ´Ã knew you Sawda´  after that Rasul Wives wear niqab out of safety, as you know Ýslam was new and Muslims were targeted at that time .

And it never was an order to all muslim women...

So if i dont get the proofs or evidence from Quran or sunna how on earth would i accept wearing it and by what power you force it on women there ?!

And btw, i went through the link and it only proved that Hijab is an order and niqab was what Rasul and Sahaba´s wives wear...so its exactly same as i said.

You ask me to give you true examples about how women been treated by  El amr Bil ma3roof  ?

And how would you accept if they were true or not, you are dening it all together.

Ýt happens to many during Haj season too, and we hear many stories about it.

Men were hit not strong but never the less hit and thats the point and were ordered to order his wife to wear decent meaning to cover up all together, the woman was just wearing hijab ..

PS: Thanks for the link

 Actually its a big topic D_K if human got the choice or he is dectated what to do !

Ýts not easy to explain it but in short it goes like...human has the choice thats why he carry the consequences of his choice at same time ALLAH as god know what those choice would be and regarding to this HE already condemn them by what they will do.

So as you have the choice, the fault still would be yours.

Ý hope i made it clear...

And taking this as an example too, thats why one wont be able to understand Quran correctly if he/she doesnt have the knowledge for that, and only by having the right books or better imams they will

Later, you would get rest of the things by your own once you read, or you would know where you get the information you need in order to understand the backgrounds.

Actually abudy it was a nice debate, explained many about how you think

Ýt was a pleasure

ALLAH with you in your studies inþallah

 Sounds reasonable.

But CANLI, what if I study all the religious books that I need? And what if I consult all the famous Imams and live like a good person (I already do ) but what if I can still not believe?  Maybe I will stop saying that I am against it, maybe I will understand more and respect more. But maybe I will never believe. Than what is waiting for me? Hell? Burning fire? Because I was a good person but just couldn´t believe? Does that make you a better person in Allahs eyes than me even though what I do is only HUMAN, and after all that is how god made us, as humans?

What bothers me is that religions don´t have place for those who do not believe. It is logical, but for me it prooves that either god didn´t ´write those books´, or, second possibility, god is evil and only has eye for submission and not for good humanity.

And I also think it was a nice discussion. Now I must go back to cleaning

There is a lot to sift through.....a tremendous amount....and so much has been added and subtracted that it all gets very confusing.  At the heart all religions have the same kernel.   I think the important thing is to seek with an open mind and heart.  To believe out of fear is one thing, to believe out of conviction is another.  Belief can not be demanded or forced.

There are times when one is presented with irrefutable evidance of which they still deny because they do not want to embrace the truth, that is a different matter.  Have we not all seen the one who when asked, for example, aren´t those shoes too tight?", and they will say ...." no they are comfortable"......that is denying the truth. ....or again when being told," see I told you you would get sick if....." and although one is sick they deny it.

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=81677&sectionid=351020202

Just so that we avoid any possible ambiguities, can anyone tell me if any of the ladies in the picture can be said to have a "hijab" or "niqab".

I want to know if any one of the is going straight to hell for not following the Islamic dress code !

I must say |I enjoyed this discussion as well. Of course I disagree with a lot of ideas that some members represent and they disagree with mine, but it was a pleasure to confront these views. And, moreover, we avoided casting stones and vulgarisms (apart from one incident). Is the TC folk finally learning to debate?

 Now you scared me!

You know AlphaF, I really don´t think anyone here is qualified to determine just who is going straight to Hell.....I think here are some who would be amazed at just who finds themselves where.....

Alameda,

You tell me which girl fits the holy specifications, if any...I will draw my own conclusions.

Guess who are the strongest advocates of the  weird idea "individuals can never understand Islam by reading Kuran themselves, alone;  Imams are absolutely necessary to borrow your Kuran and then tell you what it says"".

Can somebody explain to me then, why Islam does not have  clergy like in Christianity or Judaism ?

 Actually D_K i cant answer your question, at issues like this i believe only ALLAH can have the answer to such questions, HE is the judge and not us

Not everything are %100 white or %100 black, if so it would have been easy to put the rules in front of us and judge each other .

There are many degrees at the middle that only ALLAH would be able to judge and say which is which not human.

What i know is infidel will go to hell yes

Ýnfidel is the one who deny the existence of God.And it sound logic to me, if you deny the existence of HÝM How come you want to go to HÝS Heaven or fear HÝS hell ?!

Also if you deny HÝS existence you shouldnt also be in HÝS Heaven...excuse me...but what for ?!

Ýf you are a good infidel..good human i mean, you would be rewarded for being good at life time not after life ´second life´ anyway, infidels dont believe in second life, so they will take their rights too.

As for those who believe in god and believe there is no god but one god but at same time dont believe that Mohammed SAV is the last prophets and dont believe in Ýslam...so i dont know

Ý actually cant say.

Ýt goes some how at the middle between the white and the black

Who believe ALLAH is the only God and no God but God and Mohammed SAV is the last prophet will be in Heaven at the scond life ... that is i know that is the clear white.

Other than that i believe only ALLAH know.

PS: ´You´ general term

Ý dont get your question !

Are you asking who is wearing hijab or niqab in that picture ?!

Well, Emine Erdoðan and Wife of qatari Sheikh are wearing hijab !

Alpha, ALLAH didnt say that who doesnt wear hijab will go to hell, ALLAH ordered us to wear it yes.

So no one actually can say who would go to hell and who is not...its not our jobs to do it, we are not God.

 After Ýslam start to be stronger and to be more accurate during The Treaty of Hudaybiyya Rasul SAVgot the chance to teach others Ýslam, and to do so he sent them Ýmams to teach it to them...note that many of those people also were Arabs, and they were living at same time too, so they should had understood the circumstances of each aya verses better than us , no ?!

But Still, Rasul SAV sent them imams to teach them so he be sure that he delivered what he has been taught correctly, and understood same way by anyone no matter how far or near he might be.

So you have objections that we learn about our religion from imams now ? And we are many years past Rasul SAV time and not living same  circumstances ?

How would we understood about Al Mucadala Sura and understood the story of that woman who was arguing Rasul SAV if imams didnt explain ?

How would we understood El Tawba Sura and what did it mean and in which  circumstances ALLAH sent it ?!

Sure you would understood what you read, you would understood the rules, but would you understood what is behinde it or the background of it unless you have been told ?!

You are not so proud to learn math and science from a math and science teachers, but you proud to learn religion from Ýmams ?!

We dont have clergy like in Christianity or Judaism, we have imams, and thats different, imams dont control our lives telling us what to do and what not to do, they dont have power over us, we have our rules from Qur´an and Sunna

 Part of imams job to be like teachers, deliver the informations in a simple way.

Some of them hadith imams search hadiths if they are good or made...some do measures..things now are different than the past we would want to find what would religion say in somethings

Like when they said heroin is haram ´forbidden´ same like alcohol..there was no heroin at Rasul SAV time..so imams made measures for that and agreed on it.

And so on, as you know Ýslam has many section of religious science

But at all, everything imams say must be supported by the evidence from Quran and sunna so they would be accepted, if they dont offer such evidence what they say would mean anything at all.

And they must publish their evidence along with what they say for us regular people to think about,  compare and accept what they say.

And we are ordered in matters like that to search opinions of many imams and not just one and take the openion that the majority of them acknowledge , if they are different in matter...of course not basic one, all basics already covered up then we judge by ourselves which one of what they say is closer to our faith.

And that is what abudy said here

But im sure you know all that.

So How come that we would have clergy like in Christianity or Judaism ?!

AlphaF

First word that the prophet Mohammad (best selams on him) had received from Allah (swt) was READ, this word is for every muslim since that day till the last day.

No one needs clergy in Islam as in christianity or judaism, as long as every muslim CAN READ, well I READ Quran and when I don´t understand I don´t run for SOMEONE to explain and tell me what it says

I open Tafseer book and look for explanation, but if I know Arabic well I may not need the Tafseer book, and I already found that the translations of Quran meanings are very good and they take to the same meanings as in Arabic, somewhat there is  no excuse for whom doesn´t know Arabic .  Generally Quran is clear and direct specially in ORDERS.

Quran isn´t YOURS or MINE or SOMEONE´s else book, it´s the book of Allah (swt) to makind and to the other creations (I tried to find tehir names in English, but poor English doesn´t contain such a name, {specially I´m very choosy concerning words}.  So no Imam can tell you what Quran says as long as you can READ.

READ is the KEY of knowledge, whenever you can READ you won´t need anyone to cover your eyes and fill your ears with his self inclinations, and here I mean what some sheikhs could do in non Arabic countries.

Even Imams ended up in differences of opinion, so you point about "inclinations" is obviously not very valid.

If God can entrust all basic functions of clergy (burrial, marriage, leading  Moslems in prayers etc.) even to his humblest believer (so long as the believer is sane and capable; no need to be an Imam expert in Fikh) he must have created such believers capable to understand a book that He clearly meant for them to read. As such, Islam is a personal submission straight to God, not through intermediaries.

You seem well aware that the holy book starts with the personal instruction to "read": It does not say "ask Arabic Imams, what you understand not". History says the first 4 Khalifas (probably the only 4 that come close to being Islamic saints)  were actually killed by those who believed (pretended) they were better Moslems.

To answer my own question,  I think the strongest advocates of the idea that "Imams are absolutely necessary for an average Moslem to understand Islam" are the Imams themselves.

  There is much difference between who want to read and apply the rules, and who want to read and understand why should he apply those rules then apply them.

As i said in my upper post..its easy to read the rules and apply them...but its not easy to understand why ALLAH said that and in what circumstances, what people did so ALLAH send this verse or that, and you wont be able to know that when you read Quran alone because its not there.

As i gave the example Surat ElTawba, we dont say Bismellah Al Rahman Al Rahim before we start reading it, you wouldnt know why, you wouldnt know  know what happened unless you read Tafseer or ask Ýmam..Same as in Surat El Nour, you wouldnt understand that ALLAH meant Ayþe RA by some ayat unless you read Tafseer or ask Ýmam, in short...to get more explanations.

But if you just dont want to know...thats something else !

We were ordered to go back to our imams if we have something in religion we are not sure about or not clear!

Ýts even logic too, and you have the freedom and logic to choose what would you accept from imams opinions if they are in difference...and thats mercy too.

Ý dont know nor understand why are you against imams that much ?!

Sure there are good imams excellent ones and also bad ones, they are human after all, and we have our Quran, Sunna and minds to judge who is good and who is bad !

But to say we have same knowledge as them ?!!!

Thats kind of strange...unless you have same studies as they have !

Ý agree with you, they were best khalifas ever, only Ömer Abd El Aziz was a bit close to them through all over the history, but 3 of them were killed not 4, first  Khalifa died on his bed, and last one Ali RA was killed for something else and not by who pretended to be Muslim...but actually by who thought he is doing Ýslam a favor !

May ALLAH punish him for what he did .

You talk like an Imam, but let us see if you are sincere..

If King Abdullah, the custodian of two holy mosques ( that is what they call him: either the rest of the mosques are not holy, or he does not care or feel responsible for other mosques) gave you and me two Korans: to you one that is hand written, very old , very valuable and in green cover -  and to me, a brand new one,  straight from the printing house and in dark red cover. Would you be able to remember which one is yours, and which one is mine?