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Political correctness or racism: doubts...
(23 Messages in 3 pages - View all)
[1] 2 3
1.       Trudy
7887 posts
 09 Nov 2006 Thu 06:27 pm

Not only the US or Turkey has it's upcoming election problems, The Netherlands has too: November 22nd we can vote for parliament (and thus a new government). I normally always know what to vote for (I vote since I am allowed to in 1981 the same left-wing party), but lately I noticed some of my views have changed. So a few questions to make up my mind. First I'll explain what I think is my ideal: a multicultural society with people from everywhere, every race, religion or non-religion who can really communicate living with each other instead of living next to each other. But:

Is it fair to ask that foreign people who live in my (or any) country after several years speak the language? Now there are a lot of people who, after sometimes more than 20 years, do not speak acceptable the language.

Is it fair to ask that shopkeepers and traders from other countries do have the same diploma's, opening hours, book keeping demands as the locals?

Is it fair to ask people accept common values instead of holding stuck to those from their own country - which most of the time means they want to go back in time?

Is it fair to think that if a person without Dutch nationaly who is really misbehaving (crime!) could send back to their own country?

Is it fair to ask that everyone living in a country sticks to the laws of that country, even if that is not according their religious views? (This I'll explain: a few years ago there were problems with a religious leader who said that homosexuals should be thrown of an appartment building with their heads down, or fathers who object their daughters go to school, or women-circumcision (infabulation) - it occurs!)

And so I have a lot more doubts. Am I a racist when my answer to all questions above is 'yes'? Should I accept all other views and religions even if that means that laws are broken? Should I accept everyone because of freedom of mind and speaking? Or....

Who like to answer me?

2.       robyn :D
2640 posts
 09 Nov 2006 Thu 07:54 pm

Quoting Trudy:

Not only the US or Turkey has it's upcoming election problems, The Netherlands has too: November 22nd we can vote for parliament (and thus a new government). I normally always know what to vote for (I vote since I am allowed to in 1981 the same left-wing party), but lately I noticed some of my views have changed. So a few questions to make up my mind. First I'll explain what I think is my ideal: a multicultural society with people from everywhere, every race, religion or non-religion who can really communicate living with each other instead of living next to each other. But:

Is it fair to ask that foreign people who live in my (or any) country after several years speak the language? Now there are a lot of people who, after sometimes more than 20 years, do not speak acceptable the language.

Is it fair to ask that shopkeepers and traders from other countries do have the same diploma's, opening hours, book keeping demands as the locals?

Is it fair to ask people accept common values instead of holding stuck to those from their own country - which most of the time means they want to go back in time?

Is it fair to think that if a person without Dutch nationaly who is really misbehaving (crime!) could send back to their own country?

Is it fair to ask that everyone living in a country sticks to the laws of that country, even if that is not according their religious views? (This I'll explain: a few years ago there were problems with a religious leader who said that homosexuals should be thrown of an appartment building with their heads down, or fathers who object their daughters go to school, or women-circumcision (infabulation) - it occurs!)

And so I have a lot more doubts. Am I a racist when my answer to all questions above is 'yes'? Should I accept all other views and religions even if that means that laws are broken? Should I accept everyone because of freedom of mind and speaking? Or....

Who like to answer me?



i agree with ur first point..anyone who chooses to reside in another country should learn the language to an acceptable standard..but this is more for their comfort and integration into that countries society..

in regards to shop opening hours i dont think any government should dictate those to anyone foreign or not.its their business, im not sure about if there is the same as here but shopkeepers arent required to have diplomas here so its irrelevant..but yes of course they should meet the same standards and be subject to the same legalities in my opinion

in regards to the conforming to common values i dont agree with that..people should be free to believe whatever they wish to believe and practise their beliefs..unless this is a criminal offence

and yes i also agree that if foreign nationals misbehave in a country that there could be a possibility of deportation but not automatically and that is because there could be mitigating circumstances or outside things that need to be considered

the last point i have already answered above..people should be free to practise their religious beliefs..but according to the law of the country in which they reside..for example sikhs are supposed to carry knives but i dont think this should be accepted when another would be prosecuted for doing so (if the blade was more than the specified limit)

i hope this answers all ur questions trudy n i look forward to hearing others opinions....

3.       kai
0 posts
 09 Nov 2006 Thu 08:32 pm

I also agree with your first point - anyone who chooses to reside in another country should learn the language to an acceptable standard. (is it true that in some countries you are given tests to see if you are adequate (in language wise) to stay in that country?

I also believe if you have commited a serious offence you should be sent back to your own country to serve the sentence and not be allowed to return to live to that country.

Final point is that I also believe that peolpe should be allowed to express themselves through their personality, religion, sex, whether you are homosexual or not etc. Otherwise it is like telling a person who/how they should be and if everyone acted the same then the world would be a VERY boring place...afterall God made us the way we are so why should we have to change oursleves to suit other peoples satisfaction?

4.       Trudy
7887 posts
 09 Nov 2006 Thu 08:46 pm

Quoting kai:

is it true that in some countries you are given tests to see if you are adequate (in language wise) to stay in that country?


In Holland, yes. From January this year newcomers from countries other than EU-countries, US, Japan and Australia have to do an exam in their own country in speaking and listening before then can apply for a visa. (Not a tourist visa of course, though that is no easy to get as well). After passing the exam and getting the visa and living in Holland, newcomers have to go to school for at least a year, it is compulsory. Then they have to do a test, called 'integration-test', the results of that test are important for getting a renewed temporary visa after 5 years. During this year lessons are given in 4 qualifications: speaking, listening, writing and reading. If someone is cannot read or write, that is not important for the first exam but it is later on. Only when someone reaches level A2 (European standard level) they can after 5 years apply for a Dutch passport. If you are not Dutch you are after 5 years allowed to vote for city council but not for parliament.

(And if you are unlucky, you get me as your language teacher.... )

5.       kai
0 posts
 09 Nov 2006 Thu 09:03 pm

Quoting Trudy:

And if you are unlucky, you get me as your language teacher.... )



Why unlucky? how strict are you with your pupils?

You = your pupils = my gift to you = as an excuse for me to =

I think this is how it goes....especially the first two lol

Lines:

Ik moet leren om leraar te eerbiedigen
Ik moet leren om leraar te eerbiedigen
Ik moet leren om leraar te eerbiedigen
Ik moet leren om leraar te eerbiedigen
Ik moet leren om leraar te eerbiedigen

6.       Trudy
7887 posts
 09 Nov 2006 Thu 09:10 pm

Quoting kaiWhy unlucky? how strict are you with your pupils?

You = your pupils = my gift to you = as an excuse for me to =

I think this is how it goes....especially the first two lol

Lines:

Ik moet leren om leraar te eerbiedigen
Ik moet leren om leraar te eerbiedigen
Ik moet leren om leraar te eerbiedigen
Ik moet leren om leraar te eerbiedigen
Ik moet leren om leraar te eerbiedigen

[/QUOTE:



Do you know me, kai? lol
And yes, I am quite strict even though my 'pupils' are adults mostly between 35 and 50!

7.       jackieeuk
72 posts
 11 Nov 2006 Sat 02:12 pm

I am from the UK and we are no longer a nation of Englishmen/women so to speak we are considered as a" multi culteral" nation and the UK have to accomodate all races of people who have chosen to settle in the UK however what i do find upsetting is that the UK is appearing to loose the English/British identity in doing so.
I am not a parent so i am sitting on the fence when i say this ( so please correct me if im wrong) but i find it quite disturbing when schools are no longer allowed to have christmas trees up at christmas and are no longer allowed to have our traditional nativity play because there are many children who do not celebrate christmas !
This is not law as far as im aware and some schools as far as im aware still do have the above but i am aware at work when i hear mothers talking that "joey's school " isnt having a navivity play this yr as the school authorities wont authorise it.
I remember when i was at school back in the 60's and 70's if the school were doing something out of the norm we all had letters sent home asking parents to be aware that this or that was being done at school and parents had to given permission before we could attend ie sexual eduction classes just as an example but back then we still had muslim,hindi,bangledeshi children and they all joined in , in what ever was going on Christmas then wasnt a problem so whats happened ?
i am in a mixed culteral relationship and i absolutely would not stand in his way for him to follow his faith but just how far doing we go before loosing what ever country we live in 's identity to ensure that other communities are catered for?
I absolutely love culture and totally find it facinating and all throughout my college years all my friends were from overseas,iranian,iraqy,polish,french,chinese,thai as i preferred their company to English people , my Fiance is Turkish and so im not writing this with venham or hatred i guess im just thinking out aloud lol but when i see/hear or read about other religions being accomodated within the UK and yet our customs/religious celebrations are slowly but surely being stopped "incase" it offends it does upset me.
I hope you can see where im coming from as it is sometimes hard to express oneself in writing without actually hearing in what context its being said.

Kind Regards

Jackie

xx

8.       Trudy
7887 posts
 11 Nov 2006 Sat 02:20 pm

Jacky, that is exactly my point. I too love other cultures and their traditions and habits, but up to what limit and costs regarding own laws and traditions?

9.       aenigma x
0 posts
 11 Nov 2006 Sat 02:21 pm

Well, first of all, be careful not to call people from the UK "English" - Joey will not thank you for forgetting the Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish

I have mixed feelings about your comments. I can understand that you are saying, but my feelings are that we MUST lose this nationalistic approach. The world is changing, especially Europe, and there are no borders within the EU now. People are free to come and go as they please.

With regard to Christmas, I would agree with you if we were a devoutly Christian country. However, most people have no interest in the church or religion until a "nice" festival like Christmas comes along. It is hypocritical of us to be offended.

If you believe that people who move to the UK should embrace our culture and religion, then perhaps you should look at the bad record of the English, in particular, and their "colonies". We had no respect for other's culture, we created "little England's" all over the world - and still continue to do so as people move to the sunny resorts to live permanently.

We are getting a taste of our own medicine, and sometimes medicine tastes bitter eh?

10.       Trudy
7887 posts
 11 Nov 2006 Sat 02:31 pm

True again aenigma. My country is also not so innocent when it comes to colonizing. But my point is, if I just do accept other cultural behavings and point of views but do not accept 'they' (?) want to change things back in time, am I a racist then? Let me explain: some of my students do want to get rid of laws according gay marriage, abortion and living unmarried together because they are against it. They think it is normal calling names at gays, normal to abuse women who dress - in their opinion - not decent. I think they are absolutely entitled to their point of view but not to the behaviour going with it as they say. My 'problem' is not different religion or ideas, my problem is the action some people take to convince others of their ideas.

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