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The Race For Size Zero
(18 Messages in 2 pages - View all)
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1.       robyn :D
2640 posts
 08 Mar 2007 Thu 12:36 am

Several programmes have featured recently on terrestrial tv in England in regards to the size zero debate, anorexic children and celebrities that just keep slimming down. Whilst I don't agree with the emancipiation of women I am sure I'm not alone with constantly focusing on weight as it seems to turn the world around today.
Its not just fashion designers and the modelling industry to blame but also the media for constantly focusing on women's weight and criticising celebrities for being too fat or too skinny and imposing these ideals on us as women.
Whats everyone else's views on this issue?If weight was not a media issue would anorexia still be on the rise?Or is just that some people are prone to anorexia and natural competition taken over?
Either way anorexia/bulimia sufferers are getting younger and younger and it depresses me seeing these children as young as 8 and 9 on tv being afraid to drink water because they think it will make them gain weight...

2.       catwoman
8933 posts
 08 Mar 2007 Thu 12:59 am

Some sociologists and psychologists propose that the trend for women to weigh less and less has to do with the recent feminist movements. Since women became more threatening to men in many areas of life, and especially those that give them much more power then some men would like, this new trend came about - showing women as smaller, weaker and less and less threatening-looking. At the same time, the focus on women's beauty has strengthened. Women are more and more encouraged to look gorgeous - almost like art objects to be trophied by men, as if that was the natural way of gender roles. Media's manipulation of men's insecurities and denial makes it impossible for most men to deal with these feelings in a healthy way. Women get smaller (in movies, comic books, games, advertising) and men get bigger and more muscular then ever!

I must also add that this theory also explains the increased degradation and humiliation of women in porn materials (something mostly produced for men, which on top of other things serves as a way for men to relieve their hatred towards women which they can't do in normal life).

As a reference, I used (and highly recommend, especially to men who are interested in learning how to overcome objectification of women as well as who don't agree with the socially accepted and advertised definition of masculinity) - Jackson Katz "The Macho Paradox" and his video "Tough Guise" and Gary Brooks "The Centerfold Syndrome".
These books are written by men and talk about these issues from men's perspective.

3.       robyn :D
2640 posts
 08 Mar 2007 Thu 01:22 am

Quoting catwoman:

Some sociologists and psychologists propose that the trend for women to weigh less and less has to do with the recent feminist movements. Since women became more threatening to men in many areas of life, and especially those that give them much more power then some men would like, this new trend came about - showing women as smaller, weaker and less and less threatening-looking. At the same time, the focus on women's beauty has strengthened. Women are more and more encouraged to look gorgeous - almost like art objects to be trophied by men, as if that was the natural way of gender roles. Media's manipulation of men's insecurities and denial makes it impossible for most men to deal with these feelings in a healthy way. Women get smaller (in movies, comic books, games, advertising) and men get bigger and more muscular then ever!

I must also add that this theory also explains the increased degradation and humiliation of women in porn materials (something mostly produced for men, which on top of other things serves as a way for men to relieve their hatred towards women which they can't do in normal life).

As a reference, I used (and highly recommend, especially to men) - Jackson Katz "The Macho Paradox" and his video "Tough Guise" and Gary Brooks "The Centerfold Syndrome".



thanks for the recommendations, i just find it so puzzling that most of us criticise it and yet still attempt to fit this ridiculous ideal at high costs,physically,mentally and emotionally..

4.       catwoman
8933 posts
 08 Mar 2007 Thu 01:39 am

Quoting robyn :

thanks for the recommendations, i just find it so puzzling that most of us criticise it and yet still attempt to fit this ridiculous ideal at high costs,physically,mentally and emotionally..



It seems like a contradiction, but if you don't understand the underlying causes and don't oppose them, you will still desire to fit into the ideal in order to be appealing and approved of in social groups. Social pressure seems to me to be even stronger for men then it is for women. If the whole society tells you that you're not a men if you don't verbally degrade women, or if you don't control at least one woman in your life, or if you show any kind of affection or feelings, then no matter how much you don't agree with that, you will not feel secure about your masculinity until it's validated by other men and women. The problem is that most women also validate this kind of behavior. If women rejected aggressive, vulgar men, then they would change right away. It's the sexual selection that drives them to be this way.
Because most industries are owned by men, they realized that showing images of "beautiful" women in characteristic settings/ways would attract attention and convey "attractive" messages especially to men. But these women look radically different then they looked 50 years ago - they are smaller, weaker, and trophied much more then they used to be. It's a trick that makes it look like women are admired, while in reality they are degraded to body parts to be used and discarded. Men feel much more powerful and dominant around such women.
Both men and women strive for social approval so that they can feel like they are fine compared with others, that they fit in the norms. The above mentioned social messages are what we are all bombarded with; most people however are not aware of the underlying messages and the insecurities we all have about our sexuality or general adequacy make us easy preys for media's manipulation.

Interestingly enough, this horrible media manipulation and degrading, mysogynistic attitude is VERY widespread in Turkey... I'm absolutely horrified at the extent of it in Turkish television and magazines. It makes sense - in the light of this knowledge - how many 'macho' men you can meet in Turkey (although by no means is Turkey an isolated example!).

5.       libralady
5152 posts
 08 Mar 2007 Thu 11:18 am

Sorry but I have to disagree to a point! Whilst I find the size 0 issue abhorent, it is a very small minority of girls that are actually acheiving this, mostly anorexic models and film stars. How many girls walking down our high streets are size 0? Most of them are seriously overweight. Why is it that 20% of all pregnant women are obese before pregnancy. Obesity is far more of a problem in our society (UK and USA at least) than anorexia ever will be.

I don't attribute this (size zero) to feminism at all, it is more likely that women are trying to out do women. Women, as we know, are very critcal of women. How often has you been aware of another women eyeing you up in a most critical way, sort of "what the hell does she look like, what is she wearing".

In the 50's, my parents day, women were generally much slimmer, had slimmer waists, etc etc, and more hour glass shape. Now waist lines have increased and clothing sizing has been adjusted to take account of this increase in female shapes. Average waist in the 50's was arond 22" or 23" and now it is more like 26" or 27". (Apologies to those who work in metric)

I do think that much of has to do with magazines, even health and fitness magazines are responsible too. But I do not think that is has anything to do with pornography, it is womens choice to partipate in this, most of the time, but granted there are exceptions.

With the modelling situation, some countries are banning size 0, then the girl create because they say it is discrimination. But how often do you see a model over a size 10?

6.       robyn :D
2640 posts
 08 Mar 2007 Thu 04:44 pm

Quoting libralady:

Sorry but I have to disagree to a point! Whilst I find the size 0 issue abhorent, it is a very small minority of girls that are actually acheiving this, mostly anorexic models and film stars. How many girls walking down our high streets are size 0? Most of them are seriously overweight. Why is it that 20% of all pregnant women are obese before pregnancy. Obesity is far more of a problem in our society (UK and USA at least) than anorexia ever will be.

I don't attribute this (size zero) to feminism at all, it is more likely that women are trying to out do women. Women, as we know, are very critcal of women. How often has you been aware of another women eyeing you up in a most critical way, sort of "what the hell does she look like, what is she wearing".

In the 50's, my parents day, women were generally much slimmer, had slimmer waists, etc etc, and more hour glass shape. Now waist lines have increased and clothing sizing has been adjusted to take account of this increase in female shapes. Average waist in the 50's was arond 22" or 23" and now it is more like 26" or 27". (Apologies to those who work in metric)

I do think that much of has to do with magazines, even health and fitness magazines are responsible too. But I do not think that is has anything to do with pornography, it is womens choice to partipate in this, most of the time, but granted there are exceptions.

With the modelling situation, some countries are banning size 0, then the girl create because they say it is discrimination. But how often do you see a model over a size 10?



that was my point, I just don't think i made it very well And yet the average (British ) woman is a size 14 (the shock is the difference between 'models' and 'normal' women.
I don't see the link here, I think that models should look more like women and less like children

7.       MrX67
2540 posts
 08 Mar 2007 Thu 04:55 pm

media bosses using people as monkeys sometime just for rating worries,and pity planty monkeys waiting on queue for to be monkey

8.       reBooped
0 posts
 08 Mar 2007 Thu 04:59 pm

Models are required to be as thin as possible in order to 'show' the designers creations to their full potential. The model is just the 'clothes horse' and the fact that they bare little resemblance to your average 'Miss' is irrelevant for the designers. Most women realise this - but as with everything there are those (mostly young or naive or a combination of the two) who strive to achieve the 'model figure' with sometimes catastrophic consequences.
I don't think it is about wanting to appeal to men at all - since it seems well documented that men prefer curves - it is all about the opinion of other women - and somehow the status to show that you can be self-restraining and not eat biscuits and chocolate and 'goodies' that are fattening.
Personally I think that a healthy body shape is more important - different genes and metabolism mean we all are naturally different and we should make the most of what we have and enjoy being unique.

9.       Capoeira
575 posts
 08 Mar 2007 Thu 05:03 pm

Quoting reBooped:

Personally I think that a healthy body shape is more important - different genes and metabolism mean we all are naturally different and we should make the most of what we have and enjoy being unique.



I wish that were true! However, there are beauty standards and documented cases of discrimination based on lacking. There was a recent report, trying to find it, where 'beautiful' people out earned average looking individuals. I don't believe it is something that women make up in there heads!

10.       reBooped
0 posts
 08 Mar 2007 Thu 05:13 pm

Quoting Capoeira:


There was a recent report, trying to find it, where 'beautiful' people out earned average looking individuals. I don't believe it is something that women make up in there heads!




sure this does happen in all walks of life - beauty opens doors ...and wallets

11.       libralady
5152 posts
 08 Mar 2007 Thu 06:06 pm

Quoting Capoeira:

Quoting reBooped:

Personally I think that a healthy body shape is more important - different genes and metabolism mean we all are naturally different and we should make the most of what we have and enjoy being unique.



I wish that were true! However, there are beauty standards and documented cases of discrimination based on lacking. There was a recent report, trying to find it, where 'beautiful' people out earned average looking individuals. I don't believe it is something that women make up in there heads!



I think the earnings side of things is more to do whether you are confident or not and how you portray yourself. As someone who regularly interviews, if a woman or a man for that matter are happy with themselves, then this comes over in the interview. And same goes for promotion.

12.       catwoman
8933 posts
 08 Mar 2007 Thu 06:07 pm

first of all, I didn't invent those theories myself! I read about them in the books I mentioned.
second of all, just because obesity is a bigger problem then anorexia doesn't prove that those problems aren't real. of course only a small percentage of people will actually look like those unreal examples, there's no doubt about it (even if people wanted, most of us couldn't look the perfect way), the real question is where did these strange trends come from - as Capoiera said - women didn't just conjure these things up!

13.       robyn :D
2640 posts
 08 Mar 2007 Thu 06:53 pm

Quoting catwoman:

first of all, I didn't invent those theories myself! I read about them in the books I mentioned.
second of all, just because obesity is a bigger problem then anorexia doesn't prove that those problems aren't real. of course only a small percentage of people will actually look like those unreal examples, there's no doubt about it (even if people wanted, most of us couldn't look the perfect way), the real question is where did these strange trends come from - as Capoiera said - women didn't just conjure these things up!


yes and that was my point..

14.       Capoeira
575 posts
 08 Mar 2007 Thu 07:23 pm

Quoting catwoman:

first of all, I didn't invent those theories myself! I read about them in the books I mentioned.
second of all, just because obesity is a bigger problem then anorexia doesn't prove that those problems aren't real. of course only a small percentage of people will actually look like those unreal examples, there's no doubt about it (even if people wanted, most of us couldn't look the perfect way), the real question is where did these strange trends come from - as Capoiera said - women didn't just conjure these things up!


+1000000

I'll give a very real example. While living in Argentina, a friend of mine was trying to work at a bank as a teller. For her interview she was told she could have the job if the company mini-skirt uniform fit her. It was one-size for all and they didn't order or want anybody who needed a bigger size. OUTRAGEOUS!!!!

Too, I did NOT want to bring race into this equation. But it is a known fact that being a caucausian woman compared to an african or asain woman was considered more beautiful. Thank God these trends are changing BUT VERY SLOWLY. If you don't believe me look at a runway fashion show. Compare the percentage of women of color. There IS a societal problem in regards to women and their size and looks. An overweight man is much more accepted than an overweight woman. And young women pick up on this subtle discrimnation and become determined to NEVER be treated that way leading to the horrible cases of compulsive overeating, compulsive binging and purging or self starvation. The opposite of anorexia is compulsive eating. Both horrible problems that stem from a common denominator.

15.       Quasimodo
0 posts
 08 Mar 2007 Thu 07:30 pm

What are all these worries for, dear ladies of my class? Whether fat or slim, obesite or anorexian, I am ready to marry a woman of each sort!

16.       robyn :D
2640 posts
 08 Mar 2007 Thu 07:36 pm

Quoting Capoeira:

Quoting catwoman:

first of all, I didn't invent those theories myself! I read about them in the books I mentioned.
second of all, just because obesity is a bigger problem then anorexia doesn't prove that those problems aren't real. of course only a small percentage of people will actually look like those unreal examples, there's no doubt about it (even if people wanted, most of us couldn't look the perfect way), the real question is where did these strange trends come from - as Capoiera said - women didn't just conjure these things up!


+1000000

I'll give a very real example. While living in Argentina, a friend of mine was trying to work at a bank as a teller. For her interview she was told she could have the job if the company mini-skirt uniform fit her. It was one-size for all and they didn't order or want anybody who needed a bigger size. OUTRAGEOUS!!!!

Too, I did NOT want to bring race into this equation. But it is a known fact that being a caucausian woman compared to an african or asain woman was considered more beautiful. Thank God these trends are changing BUT VERY SLOWLY. If you don't believe me look at a runway fashion show. Compare the percentage of women of color. There IS a societal problem in regards to women and their size and looks. An overweight man is much more accepted than an overweight woman. And young women pick up on this subtle discrimnation and become determined to NEVER be treated that way leading to the horrible cases of compulsive overeating, compulsive binging and purging or self starvation. The opposite of anorexia is compulsive eating. Both horrible problems that stem from a common denominator.



and it's only when something is done about it that we can start to help people with these issues..maybe a starting point is that we are all naturally critical of each others looks, our clothes our possessions etc etc..but is it really natural traits or is it the media making it this way?
i.e. women should look this way or that way, we should be wearing this brand or that brand, from my persepective these so-called natural ability to criticise others on their looks and feel in competition with others is perpetuated and created by the media, it might be passed off as a natural act but maybe this is because the media makes it seem more natural..
ignore my incessant ramblings.I' not even sure if im coherent or not anymore lollol

17.       Capoeira
575 posts
 08 Mar 2007 Thu 07:39 pm

Quoting robyn :

Quoting Capoeira:

Quoting catwoman:

first of all, I didn't invent those theories myself! I read about them in the books I mentioned.
second of all, just because obesity is a bigger problem then anorexia doesn't prove that those problems aren't real. of course only a small percentage of people will actually look like those unreal examples, there's no doubt about it (even if people wanted, most of us couldn't look the perfect way), the real question is where did these strange trends come from - as Capoiera said - women didn't just conjure these things up!


+1000000

I'll give a very real example. While living in Argentina, a friend of mine was trying to work at a bank as a teller. For her interview she was told she could have the job if the company mini-skirt uniform fit her. It was one-size for all and they didn't order or want anybody who needed a bigger size. OUTRAGEOUS!!!!

Too, I did NOT want to bring race into this equation. But it is a known fact that being a caucausian woman compared to an african or asain woman was considered more beautiful. Thank God these trends are changing BUT VERY SLOWLY. If you don't believe me look at a runway fashion show. Compare the percentage of women of color. There IS a societal problem in regards to women and their size and looks. An overweight man is much more accepted than an overweight woman. And young women pick up on this subtle discrimnation and become determined to NEVER be treated that way leading to the horrible cases of compulsive overeating, compulsive binging and purging or self starvation. The opposite of anorexia is compulsive eating. Both horrible problems that stem from a common denominator.



and it's only when something is done about it that we can start to help people with these issues..maybe a starting point is that we are all naturally critical of each others looks, our clothes our possessions etc etc..but is it really natural traits or is it the media making it this way?
i.e. women should look this way or that way, we should be wearing this brand or that brand, from my persepective these so-called natural ability to criticise others on their looks and feel in competition with others is perpetuated and created by the media, it might be passed off as a natural act but maybe this is because the media makes it seem more natural..
ignore my incessant ramblings.I' not even sure if im coherent or not anymore lollol


Actually you are right! True change must take place in the minds of women first! I totally agree the worst jailers for women are other woman. As a friend's mother once told me,"if i found out that there was a woman flying the airline, i would ask to be let off". It is not until we see ourselves and empower ourselves will change come about! Maybe you were rambling but you were rambling in the right direction!

18.       gezbelle
1542 posts
 09 Mar 2007 Fri 02:27 am

Quoting Capoeira:

I'll give a very real example. While living in Argentina, a friend of mine was trying to work at a bank as a teller. For her interview she was told she could have the job if the company mini-skirt uniform fit her. It was one-size for all and they didn't order or want anybody who needed a bigger size. OUTRAGEOUS!!!!

Too, I did NOT want to bring race into this equation. But it is a known fact that being a caucausian woman compared to an african or asain woman was considered more beautiful. Thank God these trends are changing BUT VERY SLOWLY. If you don't believe me look at a runway fashion show. Compare the percentage of women of color. There IS a societal problem in regards to women and their size and looks. An overweight man is much more accepted than an overweight woman. And young women pick up on this subtle discrimnation and become determined to NEVER be treated that way leading to the horrible cases of compulsive overeating, compulsive binging and purging or self starvation. The opposite of anorexia is compulsive eating. Both horrible problems that stem from a common denominator.



+1 totally

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