Hi all, I struggle to understand the subjunctive tense in turkish but cant grasp it yet!
I just know that the suffixes are :
-eyim
-esin
-e
-elim
-esiniz
-eler

But sometimes I confuse it with the imperative mood, above all the 3rd person singular!
I also read it can mean "should we...?" but as far as I know , in turkish "should uses the "-meli / - mali" suffix ,
therefore, "I must = I should"... ayni mi?
Is " let's / let me etc" the closest translation of the subjunctive suffix??
Any help and examples highly appreciated,
Dilara

I'm looking forward to a native speaker's answer on this.

I've been through quite a bit of Turkish grammar, and I've never heard the term "subjunctive" in a Turkish course.

Not that that means much: strangely for a nation where the government set the rules, grammar terms change from textbook to textbook... but the closest I've come to a subjunctive in my studies would be dilik şart: (most of the time) "Ah bir zengin olsam!" "If I were a rich man, yeidle deedle deidle..."

It's definitely subjunctive when combined with "keşke:" "Keşke o kadar zeki olsam." "If only I were that smart."

Dilik şart kipinin hikayesi acts like the subjunctive: "olsaydim," "if I were..."

I'm confused by your list. "-eyim" and "-elim" are recognizable as imperatives. The rest is new to me. "-siniz" could be a very polite imperative, but the "e?"

I wanted to clarify the issue with the "let" structure, but it's really complicated:

Some Turkish imperatives are simply the same structure English speakers are used to - "Git!/Go!"

Sometimes they are translated to the "let" construction because we have no equivalent in English: for example, we simply don't have a third person imperative like Turkish does - gitsin - so we must say something like, "let him go," or "he must go."

"Eyim" and "elim" too are imperatives, though they are generally used in a friendly, suggestive fashion, and so translated to a softer "let": "Haydi, gidelim/Come on, let's go."

If you're using the "let" structure in a situation where one agent is doing the "letting" and another is doing the action, you make be in the realm of causative verbs. For example, "kaçmak" is to flee, but "kaçırmak" could be to let somebody/something get away. Similarly "içmek" is to drink, but "içermek" could be "to let somebody/something drink," or "to make somebody, something drink."

Have I confused you yet?

The mood "meli/malı" usually (always?) means "should."

For "must" I think you might want a stronger construction... mecbur, zorunda, zorunda kalmak...

Finally... "Let's/let me" isn't subjunctive or anything like subjunctive in any language, which may be the heart of my confusion here.

May I ask you where this list came from?

PS - again, I'm just a fellow student. So take what I say with a grain of salt and let's hope a native speaker will help us out.

know , in turkish "should uses the "-meli / - mali" suffix ,
therefore, "I must = I should"... ayni mi?

I have the same question "You should...." vs "You must...." meli/mali... I never want to sound like a demanding woman!
WinMekMak is really helpful but still need some fluent Turkish person to help us with these finer points!

Thank you both of you for your help!!.
I do agree on the point that we need native speakers' help here because it is very difficult to understand,
I am sorry if I confused you with the suffixes I wrote but I want to say my source was :

http://www.turkishlanguage.co.uk/submood.htm

Please take a look, you will see that it says subjunctive mood (tense) is "let's " , "let him " and treats imperative tense separatedly here :

http://www.turkishlanguage.co.uk/imperative.htm

Needless to say, I trust this source very much but...could it be wrong?
Selamlar!
Dilara.

I see. Yep, it says what you said it says. And it confuses the hell out of me.

"The Subjunctive Mood gives a sense of doubt, uncertainty or wish. - Let me.. Let us.. or in the negative - Let me not... Let us not..."

OK. Doubt, uncertainty, or a wish. It certainly works that way in Spanish, if not so clearly in English.

But Turkish uses a variety of vehicles to communicate these things: for example, Turkish uses "-miş" when passing on reported information without commenting on it's accuracy. You can double that - "geliyormişmiş" to express outright doubt.

Neither of those is considered subjunctive.

But he considers "let" to be an expression of desire, and so "subjunctive," and I suppose that could make sense.

But then he turns around and gives you examples of imperatives like "Geçmiş olsun" and "Kolay gelsin," and tranlates them into "let it pass," and "may it go easy."

I'd agree. But then how is this not subjunctive according to his definition?

And who's ever seen these examples?

gelmek - to come - becomes - gel-e-yim - I better come

1. geleyim - let me come, I better come
2. gelesin - let you come, you should come along
3. O gele - let him come, he should come
4. gelelim - let us come, we better come
5. gelesiniz - let you come, you come along
6. geleler - let them come, they ought to come too



One and four, OK. Perhaps arguing over whether those are imperatives or "subjunctive" is semantics... I know what they mean and I see them all the time.

But "gelesin?" That's new to me. "Gel," "gelin," "gelsiniz," "gelmelisin," and "gelmelisiniz" I know... but "gelesin?"

TURK NEEDED ON AILE FOUR. TAKSIMDEYIM'S BRAINS HAVE SPILLED. CLEAN UP ON AILE FOUR.

Very carefully written Caliptrix.

Can I assume that you don't know what the heck he means by subjunctive either?

And do I understand you correctly when you suggest that "eyim" and "elim" are not imperatives because you can't order yourself?

I learned it this way, and find that it has lead me to a correct understanding in every situation I've encountered:

Imperatives:

- eyim
- -, in
- sin
- elim
- in, siniz
- sinler (lersin?)

1) These can mean a hard command, or a softer "let's do..." depending on the context.

2) Sometimes they can come close or overlap with the meaning created using the "meli" mood.

_______________

Now what on earth is "sen gelesin?" Is that an old form passing out of common useage? Was this guy stationed here during the occupation of Istanbul at the end of WWI or something? :-S

Hi

I agree that only 2 are commonly used:

-eyim = "let me", or "shall I" if a Q

-elim = "let us", or "shall we" if a Q

I also agree that -e and -eler are more usually replaced by -sin and -sinler.

-sin/-sinler = "let him/them": I like to use the Marie Antoinette quote as an example for this "Ma'am the people have no bread" - "Then let them eat cake" "Halkın ekmeği yok" - "Pasta yesinler" It is not really a direct order, i.e. Marie Antoinette didn't say "My people: eat cake!" She says to someone else, well let them eat cake. If a boss uses it e.g. Manager and assistant manager are discussing about what a member of staff should do, it is usually an indirect order. The manager can say to assistant manager "Let them work on such an such today." (like "Have them do such and such today") so it is an indirect order. e.g. If my secretary in Zübeyde, and I want her to call Meryem into my office I might say "Zübeyde, Meryem buraya gelsin" = Zübeyde, let Meryem come here = Zübeyde please tell Meryem to come here.

The others you often only find in poetry (or in the words of some pop songs we are asked to translate on this forum!). It always seems quaint old-fashioned Turkish to me when I hear it.

Also see

Title_6_13628_4

Thank you so much all of you for your help both native speakers and learners!!
You really threw light on the subject. I read your explanations and links carefully and it is much clearer for me know.

I realize it is just a matter of reading and practice although the context might change significantly if you use a suffix of those wrongly...so I have to be careful too!

Size tesekkur edEYIM!
Dilara.