Language |
|
|
|
|
|
Noun states for pronouns
|
| 1. |
20 Jan 2006 Fri 01:16 am |
|
What is the rule for putting pronouns into a noun state???
For example, would you use the accusative or dative state for this sentence? And more importantly, why?
Floss, seni havlamak istemiyorum.
Floss, sana havlamak istemiyorum.
Floss, I do not want you to bark.
|
|
| 2. |
20 Jan 2006 Fri 01:29 am |
|
this might help http://www.turkishclass.com/forumTitle_13_2090
|
|
| 3. |
20 Jan 2006 Fri 04:16 am |
|
Quote: Floss, seni havlamak istemiyorum.
Floss, sana havlamak istemiyorum.
Floss, I do not want you to bark. |
Hi bod,
as usual you are asking advanced questions. The correct sentence would be one of those:
1. Flos, senin havlamanı istemiyorum.
2. Flos, havlamanı istemiyorum.
In the second sentence the possessive adjective is hidden just as we hide the personal pronouns. It is clear from the personal suffix in havlamanı so there is no need for senin.
havlamanı : havla + ma + n + ı
verb stem+ verbal noun suffix ma + second person singular possessive suffix 'n' + accusative case suffix 'ı'
I will show one more example:
Onun havlamasını istemiyorum.
I don't want him/her/it to bark.
havlamasını: havla + ma+ sı + n+ ı : verb stem + verbal noun suffix 'ma' + third person singular possessive suffix 'sı' + buffer 'n' + accusative case suffix 'ı'
I especially added this last example for 1. making it clear that in the first example the n was a possessive suffix and 2. for showing that the buffer n is used is used in smillar conjuagtions which makes it trick not to mix with the possessive suffix n. In fact both words havlamanı and havlamasını end with "nı" which are not identical endings.
Anyway, here is the list of possessive suffixes once again.
Possessive Suffixes
after a consonant
my – benim -ım -im -um -üm
your – senin -ın -in -un -ün
his/her/its – onun -ı -i -u -ü -
our – bizim -ımız -imiz -umuz -ümüz
your – sizin -ınız -iniz -unuz -ünüz
their – onların -ları -leri -ları -leri
after a vowel
my – benim -m
your – senin -n
his/her/its – onun -sı -si –su -sü
our – bizim -mız- miz -muz -müz
your – sizin -nız -niz -nuz -nüz
their – onların -ları -leri
By the way, we wouldn't normally tell a dog "Havlamanı istemiyorum" but instead we would say "Havlama!" (Don't bark, -ma here is negative suffix.) or "Kes sesini!"
Bod,
if a dog has a personality would you talk about him as she or he? I mean "I don't want him to bark" sounds better to me than "I don't want it to bark" if I were talking about Flos. But I'm not sure.
|
|
| 4. |
20 Jan 2006 Fri 12:26 pm |
|
Quoting erdinc: Hi bod,
as usual you are asking advanced questions. The correct sentence would be one of those:
1. Flos, senin havlamanı istemiyorum.
2. Flos, havlamanı istemiyorum. |
You would get worried about me if I wasn't asking advanced questions wouldn't you 
Thanks for the explanation - but it doesn't actually answer my question......and it raises another :-S
My original question is what is the rule for the noun state of the person pronoun? You have used "senin" which is the genitive state. Would I be right that the genitive state is used because the barking belongs to the pronoun?
The other question your explanation raises is why the verb "havlamak" has a verbal noun suffix and is not used in the Mastar Hali form?
Example:
Havlamak istiyorum - I want to bark
Havlamak istemiyorum - I don't want to bark
Why can't this be extended to
Senin havlamak istemiyorum
Is it because, to associate the verb "havlamak" with a person or pronoun other than the subject of the verb "istemek" requires a possessive suffix to be added to "havlamak"???
|
|
| 5. |
20 Jan 2006 Fri 12:34 pm |
|
Quoting erdinc: Bod,
if a dog has a personality would you talk about him as she or he? I mean "I don't want him to bark" sounds better to me than "I don't want it to bark" if I were talking about Flos. But I'm not sure. |
Yes - I would certainly refer to Floss as "she" and not "it" (Floss is female!).
Also bear in mind that for the purposes of learning Türkçe, Floss is fully personified and I talk to her in Türkçe in the same manner as I would if I were talking to another person. I do not talk to her as a dog!!!
|
|
| 6. |
20 Jan 2006 Fri 12:46 pm |
|
Quoting oceanmavi: this might help http://www.turkishclass.com/forumTitle_13_2090
|
Thanks - but that still doesn't answer the fundemental question that I am losing sleep over:
If I want to use a personal pronoun then how do I know which of the states below it should be put in??? | 1st | 2nd | 3rd |
|---|
| nominal | ben | sen | o |
|---|
| accusative | beni | seni | onu |
|---|
| genitive | benim | senin | onun |
|---|
| dative | bana | sana | ona |
|---|
| locative | bende | sende | onda |
|---|
| ablative | benden | senden | ondan |
|---|
Cheers
Bod xxx
|
|
| 7. |
20 Jan 2006 Fri 12:56 pm |
|
Quoting bod: Quoting oceanmavi: this might help http://www.turkishclass.com/forumTitle_13_2090
|
Thanks - but that still doesn't answer the fundemental question that I am losing sleep over:
If I want to use a personal pronoun then how do I know which of the states below it should be put in |
Depends on the verb. In the dictionary you also find which state you have to use, for example "bulmak, /i/ to find"
That way you know you have to use accusative.
/a/ stands for dative and /dan/ for abblative.
With a lot of verbs you have to learn by heart which state to use.
But a lot of verbs that have a sense of motion have dative automatically.
|
|
| 8. |
20 Jan 2006 Fri 01:03 pm |
|
Quoting Elisa: Depends on the verb. In the dictionary you also find which state you have to use, for example "bulmak, /i/ to find"
That way you know you have to use accusative.
/a/ stands for dative and /dan/ for abblative.
With a lot of verbs you have to learn by heart which state to use.
But a lot of verbs that have a sense of motion have dative automatically. |
So for a given verb you always apply the same state to the pronoun regardless of the context in which the pronoun is used???
|
|
| 9. |
20 Jan 2006 Fri 01:10 pm |
|
Quoting bod: Quoting Elisa: Depends on the verb. In the dictionary you also find which state you have to use, for example "bulmak, /i/ to find"
That way you know you have to use accusative.
/a/ stands for dative and /dan/ for abblative.
With a lot of verbs you have to learn by heart which state to use.
But a lot of verbs that have a sense of motion have dative automatically. |
So for a given verb you always apply the same state to the pronoun regardless of the context in which the pronoun is used??? |
That's what I would think, yes, because the pronoun is subject to the verb.
Actually the way you put that question is interesting. Could you illustrate it with an example? Something, a context, that you think could make the pronoun change?
I'm just being curious, you know 
|
|
| 10. |
20 Jan 2006 Fri 01:22 pm |
|
Quoting Elisa: Quoting bod: So for a given verb you always apply the same state to the pronoun regardless of the context in which the pronoun is used??? |
That's what I would think, yes, because the pronoun is subject to the verb.
Actually the way you put that question is interesting. Could you illustrate it with an example? Something, a context, that you think could make the pronoun change?
I'm just being curious, you know |
So really the states of the pronouns have nothing to do with their named state at all - they are arbitary labels for the form used with a given pronoun.
The only example I can think of off the top of my head is:
1 - seni seviyorum
2 - sana tapıyorum
I can understand the use of the accusative state in 1 because "you" is the object of the sentence. However, using the dative state in 2 makes no sense as adoration has no more sense of motion than love does and "you" is still the subject of the sentence.
|
|
|
