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Noun states for pronouns
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| 10. |
20 Jan 2006 Fri 01:22 pm |
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Quoting Elisa: Quoting bod: So for a given verb you always apply the same state to the pronoun regardless of the context in which the pronoun is used??? |
That's what I would think, yes, because the pronoun is subject to the verb.
Actually the way you put that question is interesting. Could you illustrate it with an example? Something, a context, that you think could make the pronoun change?
I'm just being curious, you know  |
So really the states of the pronouns have nothing to do with their named state at all - they are arbitary labels for the form used with a given pronoun.
The only example I can think of off the top of my head is:
1 - seni seviyorum
2 - sana tapıyorum
I can understand the use of the accusative state in 1 because "you" is the object of the sentence. However, using the dative state in 2 makes no sense as adoration has no more sense of motion than love does and "you" is still the subject of the sentence.
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| 11. |
20 Jan 2006 Fri 01:34 pm |
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Quoting bod: Quoting Elisa: Quoting bod: So for a given verb you always apply the same state to the pronoun regardless of the context in which the pronoun is used??? |
That's what I would think, yes, because the pronoun is subject to the verb.
Actually the way you put that question is interesting. Could you illustrate it with an example? Something, a context, that you think could make the pronoun change?
I'm just being curious, you know |
So really the states of the pronouns have nothing to do with their named state at all - they are arbitary labels for the form used with a given pronoun.
The only example I can think of off the top of my head is:
1 - seni seviyorum
2 - sana tapıyorum
I can understand the use of the accusative state in 1 because "you" is the object of the sentence. However, using the dative state in 2 makes no sense as adoration has no more sense of motion than love does and "you" is still the subject of the sentence. |
I know what you mean, sometimes the use of dative is not logic at all. Those are the kind of cases you have to learn by heart.
Another nice one to illustrate the strange ways of the dative:
mektupu yazıyorum (accusative) - I write the letter
tahtaya yazıyorum (dative) - I write on the blackboard ("to" the blackboard actually. Because if I would translate it as "on", I'd write "tahtada". But that would be wrong..)
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| 12. |
20 Jan 2006 Fri 02:07 pm |
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Quoting Elisa: I know what you mean, sometimes the use of dative is not logic at all. Those are the kind of cases you have to learn by heart.
Another nice one to illustrate the strange ways of the dative:
mektupu yazıyorum (accusative) - I write the letter
tahtaya yazıyorum (dative) - I write on the blackboard ("to" the blackboard actually. Because if I would translate it as "on", I'd write "tahtada". But that would be wrong..)
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Your example makes more sense than pronouns do if as it seems, the pronoun state is always the same for a given verb!
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| 13. |
20 Jan 2006 Fri 02:40 pm |
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Quoting bod: Quoting Elisa: I know what you mean, sometimes the use of dative is not logic at all. Those are the kind of cases you have to learn by heart.
Another nice one to illustrate the strange ways of the dative:
mektupu yazıyorum (accusative) - I write the letter
tahtaya yazıyorum (dative) - I write on the blackboard ("to" the blackboard actually. Because if I would translate it as "on", I'd write "tahtada". But that would be wrong..)
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Your example makes more sense than pronouns do if as it seems, the pronoun state is always the same for a given verb! |
Guess with pronouns it would be:
Onu yazıyorum - I write it(the letter)
Ona yazıyorum - I write on/to it (the blackboard)
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| 14. |
20 Jan 2006 Fri 02:42 pm |
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Quoting Elisa: Guess with pronouns it would be:
Onu yazıyorum - I write it(the letter)
Ona yazıyorum - I write on/to it (the blackboard) |
That contradicts what you said earlier - or I am not understanding :-S
I thought that with pronouns the state was fixed for any given verb......but that is not the case in your example here!
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| 15. |
20 Jan 2006 Fri 07:40 pm |
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Quoting bod: Quoting Elisa: Guess with pronouns it would be:
Onu yazıyorum - I write it(the letter)
Ona yazıyorum - I write on/to it (the blackboard) |
That contradicts what you said earlier - or I am not understanding :-S
I thought that with pronouns the state was fixed for any given verb......but that is not the case in your example here! |
A verb can have more than one state. That may have confused you.
Göndermek for example:
/a/ Sana bir kitap gönderiyorum - I send you a book
/a/ Bod'a bir kitap gönderiyorum - I send Bod a book
/dan/ Londra'dan bir kitap gönderiyorum - I send a book from London
/i/ Kitabı gönderiyorum - I send the book
On the other hand, as far as I know, the verb hoşlanmak has only one state, /dan/
So, if I wanted to say:
"I like the sun" it would be güneşten hoşlanıyorum.
"I like you" would be senden hoşlanıyorum.
So yes, with that verb the pronoun would never change, because the verb has only one state.
I hope it's a bit clearer now?
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| 16. |
23 Jan 2006 Mon 03:32 pm |
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Quoting Elisa: Quoting bod: Quoting Elisa: Guess with pronouns it would be:
Onu yazıyorum - I write it(the letter)
Ona yazıyorum - I write on/to it (the blackboard) |
That contradicts what you said earlier - or I am not understanding :-S
I thought that with pronouns the state was fixed for any given verb......but that is not the case in your example here! |
A verb can have more than one state. That may have confused you.
Göndermek for example:
/a/ Sana bir kitap gönderiyorum - I send you a book
/a/ Bod'a bir kitap gönderiyorum - I send Bod a book
/dan/ Londra'dan bir kitap gönderiyorum - I send a book from London
/i/ Kitabı gönderiyorum - I send the book
On the other hand, as far as I know, the verb hoşlanmak has only one state, /dan/
So, if I wanted to say:
"I like the sun" it would be güneşten hoşlanıyorum.
"I like you" would be senden hoşlanıyorum.
So yes, with that verb the pronoun would never change, because the verb has only one state.
I hope it's a bit clearer now?
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Yes - I think it is making more sense now......
It is an issue I have been really struggling with for a while now - but I guess it is something that you just learn for the verbs that you make regular use of!!!
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