TO: Admin and ALL CLASSMATES

I have received the following warning - in my private mail - from one of the leading "free thinkers" of this group.

I have requested Admin to confirm whether or not she is authorised to issue such a patronising and biased warning.

If it turns out that she is, I will no longer post any further messages and will ask my account to be deleted. If she is not however, I would expect her to stop her involvement as a moderator.

----------------------

catwoman 13 Mar 2008 Thu 07:51 am

Hi AlphaF,
I would like to let you know that we decided to not have any topics about Israel or American politics in the forums any more. So please don't start those threads as they will be deleted.

Thank you.

I am sorry..
But if it is the case, it is not right..
Because forum section of this site works like a 'collective blog'. We are sharing here what we listen, what we think, what poems we like, what political ideas we have, what makes you upset, what makes smile etc etc.

And anything regarding life or ourlives, should be allowed to be part of our posts..

but they don't ban Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, Palestine and the other Islamic countries... interesting..

anyway, it looks like this thread's in for a bumpy ride.

better put your seat belts on everybody.

" What is your opinion about someone who tells you "who gives a shit about what you think?"

Why do you post your own opinions here?..You think your opinions are worth more shit than mine?"

This was the reaction you gave when I protested you after you called me a peanut. You also demanded that seniors be listened to when they spoke. At that time you walked away with your insolent remarks. You kept calling people names when you did not like their opinions. Now are you asking for order or fairness? Well, let me tell you what.
There is no order here. There is no moderation either. In other words, what there is just chaos. People can bully people to their heart's content or they can curse, humiliate and bash one another. It is guaranteed that they will just walk away with it.

If the facts were the other way around, I would support your case. Instead, I just don't care...

As a result, people with opinions tend to leave this site in search of better platforms where they can bring up their opinions in a more civilized manner.

Catwoman is not an administrator on the site but she is an important part of it. We need to make the rules more clear and apply them properly, or disagreements like this can happen. It looks like the main problem with your posts was consistently posting about certain political topics that are not related to the site. We will revise the site rules, include such cases and enforce them better.

Very CLEAR Turkish Class Rules that have been UTTERLY NEGLECTED or BROKEN not only by members but by ADMINISTRATORS also:


5. Forum messages should have a meaningful content. Please refrain from posting meaningless threads, one word (or short) nonsense posts, or such like

8. Do not post vulgar, hateful, threatening, derogatory, racist or obscene comments on this site. Any such content will be deleted. The user account of the author of such messages may also be deleted if it repeats.

9. Avoid personal disputes and arguments. Personal correspondence postings should be kept at a minimum. Personal attacks or insults directed towards other users will not be tolerated. Basically if you don't have anything nice to say then just don't say it all. If somebody posts an insulting comment do not reply to it. It will only result in starting a flame-war. Instead, send a Private Message to one of the forum moderators and they will take care of it.

10. Any discussion on politics or religion and religious matters is strictly prohibited.

11. Postings about your religious beliefs; explaining any subject from a religious perspective; trying to influence others with your religious beliefs; getting religion involved in any subject and/or any subjects with religion as the main theme is prohibited. This is a religion - free website where all members should feel comfortable whether they are religious, atheist, agnostic or whatever.

The only exception to this is where someone has raised a question about Turkish culture which cannot be answered without making a reference to religion, for example an explanation about a turkish religious holiday. Anyone answering a question of this nature, must be careful to keep their answer impartial, impersonal and non controversial. Any such responses will be deleted.

12. If you don’t agree with the moderators send a Private Message instead of posting in the forum. Any such posts will be deleted.


As I hope to have my account deleted very soon, instead of a heart-breaking goodbye I can say only:

THANK YOU VINEYARDS FOR YOUR TRUTHFUL AND BRAVE WORDS. HOPE TO SEE YOU AT A BETTER PLACE THAN THIS.

it's time something got done...

ne yazik

that good people will be leaving

and this is something to think about quoting Seneca:

Optimum est pati quod emendare non possis.
It is best to endure what you cannot change.

Plato:

Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something

If "political correctness" means supporting all those senile old Mengele-like ladies who are allowed to post nazi-threads all around, I don't want to be politically correct. I want to be DELETED, and I don't care who is admin here anymore. You people destroyed this site, and you can stay here. I asked to be deleted more than a week ago and I hope admins or whatever has left of them will do their job.

This site becomes the house of desperate housewives. I've been telling this argument since writing in the Forums.

That's Enough!!!

This site is far from is concept.

This site is a playground of a woman and her jesters.

This site becomes a muddy sea now.

This site never teach Turkish and inform Turkey for the foreign people now.

All of the moderators of this site are should be (not must be) Turkish in order to help the members, but one of them is not Turkish and always dogmatizes about Turkey without being at there.

This site is a place of insulting posts to Turkey, Turkey's internal affairs, and the religions/beliefs of people.

I'm still seeking the justice in this site. That's enough.

Sapienti sat.

Verbum Sapienti Sat Est
Don't jump to conclusions
About others' illusions;
You may find
An axe to grind
If you look at your own delusions

The easy solution is to bring additional turkish persons who care about this site to be moderators. Then, at least there will be balance among the "persons with admin access".
As of now, most of your turkish members who read the forums are embarassed and offended of the conduct.
And there are many others of us who are foreigners who love Turkey that are also embarassed of the conduct.

OK GG...I wish you well also...

People have voted with their comments in all of these threads. Read the threads and do the math again...
There are a fair amount who agree with me.

This sounds like a typical american response I have to say. If you don't like it, leave. Well, maybe some of us will. Maybe some see something that is fixable.
My time is coming I know. By force or by choice, either way will be fine. But not silently...

I doubt you know anything about me keith.
We all know you lived in Turkey and you love the country. It doesn’t make you Turkish and it doesn’t make your views on Turkey the definitive views.
I lived in Iran, I love that country and it’s people, that doesn’t make me the expert or mean that I agree with it’s government’s policies. And before I get nailed for that, NO, I am not comparing Turkey to Iran in it’s practices.
But just because I am an American, doesn’t mean I don’t know about the world and doesn’t mean I should not be allowed to vocalize my point of view. And it certainly doesn’t mean I agree with MY governments policies either.

I don't really care if you are German, Turkish, Irish, Martian...whatever....you are not addressing the real points that were raised.

Personally I see nothing wrong with having discussions about different subjects in the Off-Topic forum. Be it Israel, USA, Georgia or Jupiter - what's wrong with it?

The thing is, this forum would have to be heavily moderated as to avoid rude remarks - I'm not talking about censoring the content of posts or topics or points of views, I am talking about personal insults such as "you're stupid/uneducated" or "you're a menopausal woman" or "you're using your penis instead your brain." Also, no remarks like "you're uncivilised/ disgusting nation" should be allowed.

I wouldn't mind reading what people think about different issues in contemporary world as long as the discussions are kept informative not vulgar.

How to win a debate - chuck in a few Latin quotes, doesn't matter if they are relevant or even mean anything - people will always be impressed!

(Hmmm..... I was going to add a link to 'How to Debate Like an Oxford Don' here but sadly Youtube appears to have been banned again in Turkey!!

How to Win a debate...even if you are less intelligent and less prepared.....
Many people think that a debate is about choosing a position and holding steadfastly to that position until, perhaps, an opponent breaks. But this is a very limiting view of winning, because it doesn’t allow for the kind of discussion that creates better options and better decisions. Winning isn’t about forcing our opinions down others’ throats with whatever rhetoric we can muster… it’s about creating an atmosphere for collaboration and change.

Roswitha - you forgot to quote the source:

http://avanoo.wordpress.com/2007/01/23/how-to-win-any-debate%E2%80%A6-even-if-you%E2%80%99re-less-intelligent-less-prepared-and-less-attractive-than-your-opponent/

Daydreamer, If you had pm ed me to point it out I would have rectified it myself, no problem

Sorry about that Roswitha! Next time if something similar will happen, I will, I promise!

http://meditationsonmeaning.com/2007/01/23/how-to-win-any-debate%E2%80%A6-even-if-you%E2%80%99re-less-intelligent-less-prepared-and-less-attractive-than-your-opponent/

Oh, right...why would that make me happy to notice you quote instead of comment? Actually, I believe you're free to do whatever you want - google and paste Latin quotes, pictures, Chinese takeaway addresses. As long as you provide a link and make sure it is clear it is not your personal comment, I'm happy with all you post.

http://meditationsonmeaning.com/2007/01/23/how-to-win-any-debate%E2%80%A6-even-if-you%E2%80%99re-less-intelligent-less-prepared-and-less-attractive-than-your-opponent/

Wow..I'm amazed however not shocked to some of your responses directly to the admin. Some clearly have no respect to the owner of this site. Have you ever heard of you catch more bees with honey than vinegar? Even if you don't agree with the decision, the approach to his decision made by some of you was very tasteless. This is a FREE language site. I for one am appreciative that it exists in the first place. Is it fair and consistently ran to your likings, maybe or maybe not. Chalk it up to life being not fair, no suprise.

I for one am open to discuss anything here..But it does get exhausting to see some topics over and over again. And yes, Israel and the U.S. is one. The same people who cry wolf are the ones posting these controversial topics. It's like your motive is to instigate an arguement..and don't deny it that is what the real intent here is.

The first time someone says anything negative about Turkey or Islam you start stomping your feet in protest.crying for your rights. But you have no problems insulting Israel or the U.S. Remember you reap what you sow. If you can dish it out you should be able to take it, instead of having a fit.

What a sad indictment of what this site has evolved to. Being a "long term member " of about 21/2 years, I have seen considerable changes to the way this site is managed (not that I could do better or do I wish to belittle Admins attempts) when unpleasant threads were locked or blocked far more readily than today.

I tend to agree with both Alpha and Vinyards in equal amounts, they are both right in some of the comments they make.

It is wrong that people are singled out and admonished when others get off scott free without a warning and been allowed to post and carry on posting insulting comments.

I dont think that threats of leaving the site work as there will always be someone else to follow, therefore a concious look at moderation, who has access to what should be considered before serious harm is done to what should be a brilliant site.

I remember when Catwoman was an administrator so I take it she still admin rights which I find unacceptable.

Maybe someone could post in the "suggestions" thread instead of just complaining?

Maybe it's just me but I don't spend time on things I don't enjoy. I don't mind people critisizing the US or my religion....I rather enjoy it. It makes me think about why I am what I am. My wish is that everyone would stop being so defensive. If you can't take being critisized, perhaps you should lock yourself in a room with no access to the outside world.

For Libralady: http://www.cuedspeech.org/images/awards/clapping-hands-lg.jpg

Why is this hostility toward daydreamer tolerated??? If we are making such a fuss about being appropriate? and Handsom....you must be more complimentary to all the women here...not just daydreamer!! I demand equal treatment!!

Adonis I am really sorry but you comments are unacceptable. You ask for justice, yet you talk so personally and rude. You have no right to complain about fair treatment, as you treat everyone just like you wish.

Keith, can you send me a list of complaints or things you'd like to see changed. If you wish, send me examples of things you find unacceptable. Actually Id like everyone to do so.

I am off for holiday in Turkey today for the coming two weeks, but I will be around to read them and talk it through with Admin and Catwoman.


You all make me feel like it is us administrators who deliberately try to bully people away. We all want this to be a pleasant site where EVERY topic can be discussed. Unfortunately, we used to lock topics quickly, afraid of their outcomings. Recently we have been tolerating it more, but apparantly it doesnt work. We shall reconsider our forumrules and be more strict in applying them.

Thank you all for your cooperation. I do not wish to see anybody leave, I wish for this to be a community that feels like coming home.

Thank you.

A few weeks ago I wrote a pm to Admin about the problems here, but no answer.....

I am still waiting......

if stupidity and being rude were a crime, I wonder, if 'you know who' would be in jail.
I read the post, just before you deleted it D_K.
it was a good action..

Come on Ros…you show such outrage over being asked to limit your posts….why are you not equally outraged over the disgusting comments made by adonis?

Alpha…keith…how bout you two? Why arent you speaking out against this idiocy? Do you find this more acceptable than having a post deleted? What are your priorities?

Thanks everybody for defending my right not to be insulted. Still, I have already replied to adonis's post, quoting it. So his words full of wisdom can be read by general public.

Don't worry, I don't feel insulted by people who write posts like this. Adonis showed his real self and I don't think anyone normal would take his words seriously.

This is not about fairness or equality. It is not about rudeness either.

This is called hidden Sionism. I suggest Admin includes this new rule that "threads about America and Israel can not be started" - among the general TC rules, so all can see.

I will always post issues on Zionism and America. why not. These are topics of daily interest.

http://www.zionismontheweb.org/antizionism/Zionist_take_over_the_world.htm

I will repeat again:
There SHOULD be no restriction regarding the subjects users want to post. (if course I dont mean pornography or that type of subjects)

10. Any discussion on politics or religion and religious matters is strictly prohibited.

The rules to clearly state this... such drama is uneeded i feel.

I think it's a good idea to remember this is a FREE site, now that we have been given a this "gift horse", we are checking it's teeth.

The "Forum Rules" are well thought out and seem to cover just about everything. It would be nice if they were actually enforced. The enforcement of the rules is a problem in as much as it requires administering and moderating, which takes a lot of time and work. Moderators and administrators are not paid (at least I don't think they are)


As members need to remember and consider is the fact that this site, as it is privatly owned, is not a democracy. We aren't shareholders with votes. We are allowed to join in and partake of it's benefits if we like. We are consumers who consume as we like or do not like.

If the owner of TLC wants to keep our membership, which it appears is the case, we are asked what we want, but please let's remember, this is a free site.

There are many wonderful aspects to this site. I love looking at the photos, the dictionary is fabulous, tips on travel, tools for learning Turkish, Turkish music and so on are wonderful. I'd hate to see this site go away.

I think we need to moderate ourselves more, and help the moderators run the site more efficiently.

Where does the warning "threads on America and Israel are totally prohibited. All such posts shall be instantly deleted." fits , in duda's thesis?

I get the impression you support Zionism, Duda.
http://www.jhom.com/calendar/iyyar/images/zionism_1.jpeg

AlphaF -I believe "no USA no Zionism" posts would fall for the 'No politics" category.

Order to this site can be brought back only by inventing a set of rules that would seem acceptable to most members. And by sticking to these rules. So far, those who'd rather not discuss politics or religion are in minority. Religion and politics make our world, I can't see why discussing them should be banned. Besides, somebody said that we can't discuss food recipes and weather in Turkey only.

People should be free to post about every single country in the world - Israel, USA, Greece or China, the same goes for religion. If a user dislikes certain country's decisions, why shouldn't they be able to write it here (regardless of which country it is).

As for criticising Turkey - what goes on in Turkey is very important to all Europeans and it's possible that Turkey will be in EU. We'd like to know if it meets the EU requirements. It's a pity that those who speak their mind about the bad things going on there (not only foreigners) are immediately accused of being anti-Turkish. We need more understanding here.

I'm really glad there's an attempt to make TC a better site.

Very well formulated and well thought out, dear Daydreamer. Congratulations for being so fair and tolerant!
Wishing you a wonderful day!!

I have never felt better, dearest Duda, TLC has certainly been quite an eye opener, in educating us indivuduals how to act when somebody comes along who has an axe to grind.

I once heard someone say "The measure of a person’s real character is what they would do if they knew they would never be found out."

Well well....it seems the cat is out of the bag.

Lots of questions by many people here Admin.

Good luck…
I only wish to thank you for this site that you and your partner have provided. Although there will be a 'Negative'
(that is what I like to call them) that will find a way to spew venom on this comment of mine, I simply wish
to commend your efforts Admin.

Putting together a site like this takes time, money perhaps, awareness and focus.

It takes maintenance, observation, discernment, patience, ….so much more.

Honesty taking precedence above all of it….. Does it?
I don't pretend to know that you have all the answers.

Some of the questions that some pose here deserve consideration and attention. You owe it to all of them.

Once again.,, İyi şanslar….

TC affects attitudes - and there are many. There are also many characters here that merely try to impress others.

It’s really quite comical and entertaining at times. The same ones over and over – fighting, condemning – most of
it just jejune fantasies and interests.

Face it everyone – YOU ARE NOT GOING TO CHANGE ANYONE’S MIND FROM YOUR OWN BELIEFS.

Simple. Geeez….

Then there are the ones that truly make this site a treasure. I’ve mentioned them before. Some translate, others
provide us with history, still others with positive, significant and valuable information.

Personally, I like the classes, variety of music, writings and even ….well , nevermind.

Each have their own reasons for visiting - complete with their biases, baggage, and country of
preference - or shall I say loyalty.

And there is nothing wrong in this. Many people – many countries. All with victories and defeats.

But let’s remember - this is supposed to be a ‘Learn Turkish/English’ site....Isn't it?

Ok, you've diversified.....Harika !...Only Aman Tanrım, bu ne dağınıklık !....

What a mess indeed.

I will give no advice to you because your hands are full, not only here but in your real lives....
You do have real lives don't you?

Ok one advisement: Stick to the original rules you initiated when first starting TC. Get rid of the fickle
phrases such as ‘ kept to a minimum’ ..or ‘meaningful content ‘.

Pandora’s box…Bag of grenades….This is what you will get with indiscriminate phrases like that.

What did someone here say ? ‘Buckle your seat belts’ ?

Maybe on a roller coaster – this is just a merry-go-round…..really ….that’s all it is people.
Go out and enjoy life.

Thank you Admin and partner….

I’m going body surfing now….ciao..

Ps: Meow.....Canim…

: >

Sie auf alles Bescheid wissen... But I will answer in English, so that other people can understand. Are you impplying that Slavica and me are the same person? No, we aren't, she already left this site because of people like you, and this is the link I posted at her request when she was abroad. I think I never broke any of the forum rules concerning tolerance and politeness. (Including polite addressing in German, I think "Sie" is much more appropriate way to address someone than "Du".) But I think I am going to break one just now:

Dear Roswitha, you are much more paranoid and senile than you want to admit.

For the gentle and merciful soul who will FINALLY delete my account:

Please accept my apologies, Duda. I am convinced a generous heart like you will try to forgive and forget. Thank you. R.

I appreciate your gesture Roswitha, but there's really no need to apologize to me. You didn't offend me personally, futhermore I probably offended you.

But just because of the fact that I am not the offended side, I have no right to forget and forgive in the name of the people who ARE offended here - be they Turks, Jews, Palestinians, Latino Americans, people of any nation, any religion and any colour. I do hope they will appreciate your post.

There's enough tragedy in this world, we don't have to add our amounts of fuel to those fires. I was just trying to add my glass of water together with those who want to extinguish them.

Regards,
D.

Thanks!

Blah I read all the rules
SO according to them what should we talk about?
Ahhh tea n_n fun fun fun and peanuts I love them on cookies
What do you think about peanuts? I hope I'm not getting too religious here with my tea and peanuts
Kisses for all and lots of love
Ahh love means Beatles I love the beatles what do you think? Beatles are great I hope that does't have any political stuff either
more kisses xoxo

Catwoman, are you the owner of this site? I personally find it beyond belief that you would be. But are you?

I think it is important to notice that BOTH sides have failed in being truly respectful and fair.

"Punish"?

it seems that ADONIS were deleted...it is evidence that admin wanna see any ppl who are disagree with them...does it mean that everybody must attack and minimize/Turkish here???
will u delete all ppl who are disagree with u???

We miss ADONIS((

yes it says his account deleted coz of some reason. I know what are these reasons in real. some members are being eliminated one by one, it s not true! I dont mind if u delete my account coz I wont allow anybody to insult turkish ppl.

ONE TURK, ONE ENGLISH, ONE GERMAN, ONE AMERICAN, ONE CHINESE, ONE AFRICAN AND A WORLD THAT IS WORTH THREE CENT’S

This Site looks like an university.

These words by Yilgun will not change anything, it won't bring Adonis back.

nothing to do Roswitha, they are the boss!

One thing though, he knew archeology.

My dear, now take a deep breath..........there will be ALWAYS others like him joining TLC.....you cannot stop war and peace in TLC

than I am also an insult to TLC for posting inflammatory topics.

Everything is a joke here now. I just laugh, nothng more:

Of course it is. Has nothing to do with you.

Occasionally the road of life can lead us into unknown territory.
Sometimes all we need is a different perspective which allows us
to see the beauty of that which we may have previously feared.

"Do not let your fire go out, spark by irreplaccable spark, in the hopeless
swamps of the approximate, the not quite, the not at all. Do not let the
hero in your soul perish in lonely frustration for the life you deserved, but
have never been able to reach. Check your road and the nature of your battle.
The world you desired can be won. It exists, it is real, it is possible, it is yours.
-Ayn Rand

"Do not under estimate the Power Of Thoughts.
Just as water has the power to change earths landscape,
your thoughts have the power to change the landscape
of your life" -Chuck Danes

For Caliptrix:
Humor Has Proven To Be A Powerful Ally In Enhancing Your Overall Health And Well Being.

Laughter is one of the best antidotes for reducing the day to day stress and anxiety that so many in this day and age experience and has proven to be an extremely effective way to increase the positive energy which is responsible and necessary for achieving Abundance, Happiness and harmony in life.

Adonisss my husbannddd
boo you hoes
Ifthe rules were the same for everyone half of the people will go, but no honestly the rules should be the same for everyone, and I don't see that.

You all have to grow up and learn THAT NOT EVERYONE THINKS LIKE YOU DO.if you want to keep living in your capitalist bubble fine I hope you enjoy it because you certainly must , you are so rich you probably have the spare time to be all day in the computer

I read the rules I know I might get also erased n_n Well if you erase me you will erase the cutest member of the site


XOXO
The cutest TLC Girl

This reminds me the turkish saying:
'kör ölür badem gözlü olur,kel ölür sırma saçlı olur'

I CANNOT believe this is catwomans site...It just feels like a joke!!!

Catwoman the important part.

I feel like when I was younger and loved the wrestling , then found out it was all fake

Again we are throwing mud at each other.



He has received several warnings not to make personal comments out of nowhere (!), but has ignored the warning and has not had the decency to reply to any of my messages.


That is all the words I will dirt on this subject.

pls. quote what he said to Daydreamer...

Another man done gone, see youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RwywI6LJA4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7WFUav0ig8&feature=related

bla bla bla.......nothing to say anymore....at least all members saw their real face...THEY played that game on me but I havent sworn them yet even I swear them many times in real life ))

FOREVER DON JUAN

Where have they (Duda, Ayla, Slavica, Kefesteki kus, other good friends from TURKISH LANGUAGE CLASS) have gone?

noone of problem never will be fixed on world unless easterns don't feel responsible problems of west aswell westerns don't feel responsible problems of east,and unless they don't meet on a middle place between east&west???why we don't accept we all the members of same family and we all responsible about all problems as much as each other,so why always you or us??doesn't better to say weeeee??i think noone of us don't have enough courage for say ''king is naked'',while we trying to find mistakes of others clothes,really sad

ohhh, there's more unpleasant surprise in TC these days
list of request the deletion of the membership of some friends on rise
if there was a ban on the discussion of certain topics, why not be insulting religions, one of them to avoid collisions with each other :-S

its not suprising that most of those who defend him are men....I found him very disrespectful to many women on tc

ok I have not been on tc long and I have not personally been in any confrontation but I have read previous posts
I by no means think he is inarticulate or unintelligent when conversing with those who hold similar values
however when in discussion with self assured free thinking articulate women he was out of his depth and had to resort to insults
im not sure how old the gentleman is but perhaps a sign of intimidation and insecurity when presented with a valued argument from a women who can think for herself

I don't want to get into a debate about Adonis as I already know how people feel. However, I felt I needed to give my support to him. I would also like to say that this does not mean I don't understand how other people feel.

I read the comments about how insulting Adonis has been etc. etc. but I feel what Alameda has said has some validity.

I took the trouble to read through Adonis' posts and from these, found him to,be helpful with translations, intelligent and rarely aggressive. For the most part he appears to have contributed to debates without any problems.

It seems the problems began in the manner that Almeda has described. I would even go so far as to say quite a few of his past posts about his country and Islam were almost in line with the views of the people that argued with him. An analogy of how I think Adonis has felt is this: often a brother will fight with his own brother but let anyone else criticise or fight with his brother and he will stand with him and defend him.

Reading a member's post archive has been quite an eye opener for me. I have purposely read some people's archives whom I thought to be quite aggressive or provocative. The interesting thing about this exercise is it allows one to form a more realistic picture of a member, to see the positives, not only the negatives. This has helped me and I recommend everyone to do this, if they don't already do so. It can make such a difference to the way one views a person. It is so easy for us to get caught up in the heat of a debate and be left with lasting negative feelings and not a fully accurate judgement of someone.

I have had several conversations with Adonis and we have differing views on several issues. However, he has always been polite and prepared to try and understand a different view, or agree to differ.

I have to speak as I find, and I understand everyone else has to, but Adonis has justifiable grievances too that go back further than the more recent confrontations. He has a lot to learn about how to handle taunts and opposing view points and from what I saw in his posting archive, I would say he had a lot to give too.

I hope Adonis returns as Adonis , 1, 2 or whatever, because this site appears to be changing for the better and it would be so nice for us all to try and make an effort together. We don't have to be bosom buddies but It would be a real sense of achievement if we all could use our skills to avoid flash points or creating them.

I took a long time writing this and there have been several posts since I saw Alameda's. I will repeat that I do understand everyone's point of view. My support of Adonis does not mean I oppose everyone else it simply means I have seen another side to him and I would really like to see him return for the reasons I stated in the previous paragraph.

These are only my thoughts and I don't need to add anything further.

I'm so sorry I was not talking about any one person
I of course respect everyones right to keep personal details private
I was only commenting on those who choose to declare gender
accept my apologize PLs I'm new to the site and don't wish to offend

Alameda... well, sorry for disclosing your gender. I didn't mean to offend you!

Try to move on, try not do dwell forever on this subject -let Adonis finally rest in peace. No one here is perfect!!!!!

'É finita la commedia' (The show's over)

Thread has been locked by geniuda...bcause of endless arguments

good I don't understand spanish.... I'm excused

Indian peace pipe

Ha ha ha Roswitha! Reminds me of the time I was referred to as Peace Pipe