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TURKISH LANGUAGE
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| 1. |
17 May 2008 Sat 01:18 pm |
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FOR FOREİGN FRİENDS=
Turkish Language is being ruled by TDK (TÃœRK DİL KURUMU-(The Turkish Language Association).
If you learn Turkish Language, you can buy these two books from TDK and then work with TURKISH LANGUAGE CLASS SITE=
1- İMLA KILAVUZU
2-TÃœRKÇENİN GRAMERİ
These books is being published by TDK in Ankara, Türkiye.
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| 2. |
17 May 2008 Sat 02:02 pm |
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Quoting yilgun-7: FOR FOREİGN FRİENDS=
Turkish Language is being ruled by TDK (TÃœRK DİL KURUMU-(The Turkish Language Association).
If you learn Turkish Language, you can buy these two books from TDK and then work with TURKISH LANGUAGE CLASS SITE=
1- İMLA KILAVUZU
2-TÃœRKÇENİN GRAMERİ
These books is being published by TDK in Ankara, Türkiye.
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Ohh PLZZZ!!! OK recommend the books! But dont say the language is RULED by TDK!!! It's just theoretical! It's ONLY the folks who RULE the language! I think TDK should change their grammar to some extent.. Cos, does any native speaker say "Gideceğim" in speech? We just say "Gidicem". So we still say that Turkish is read/pronounced in the same way it is written. But it's not the way around actually.. We speak differently.. And cos of those grammar books from which Turkish learners study and learn Turkish, they sound, when they talk, kind of weird to the native speakers 
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| 3. |
18 May 2008 Sun 10:40 am |
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Isn't that always the case when you learn a new language? You first learn how to pronounce it 'correctly' before you can start learning how to pronounce it like a native speaker? It may be different if you learn the language in the country itself, but in my experience if you don't it will always sound like book-language.
France also has L'academie Française. Works the same as TDK, they are trying to keep the language 'beautiful' which is obviously quite subjective  .
It did do something to the Turkish language though, I read that they're the ones who invented the word bilgisayar instead of computer to keep out English borrowings .
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| 4. |
19 May 2008 Mon 10:24 am |
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Quoting Chantal: I read that they're the ones who invented the word bilgisayar instead of computer to keep out English borrowings . |
Not only them, the French pay loads of attention to keep their language free of English borrowings as well. They use the word ordinateur for computer and in Czech it's počÃtač
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| 5. |
19 May 2008 Mon 11:45 am |
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Actually TDK has made lots of changes into the Turkish language. If you were to investigate it from its kuruluş till today, you will see it is a powerful institute when it comes to language. Many of the words nowadays were invited by members from the TDK in order to purify the language from its arabic and persian influences in the 1930'. They went to villages and collected words from halk dili in order to change these 'öz türkçe' words for their Arabic and Persian equivalents (we need to keep in mind that Osmanlıca was a mixture of Turkish, Arabic and Persian, in which not only words were adapted from their neighbours, but also their grammar constructions, and the gap between the elite and the people on language was big).
TDK definitely has ruled, or at least directed, the Turkish language for a long time. But the commonpeople dont really bother about it anymore and they create their own terms, adapting from English and French. It no longer rules, but definitely has played an important role in history of Turkish Language.
I dont think there is anything wrong with gideceğim as the official way. Every language has a written and a spoken form and if we are to deliberetaly make our written language as our spoken language, lots of refining will go lost.
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| 6. |
19 May 2008 Mon 11:48 am |
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Quoting incişka: Cos, does any native speaker say "Gideceğim" in speech? We just say "Gidicem". So we still say that Turkish is read/pronounced in the same way it is written. But it's not the way around actually.. We speak differently.. |
Well, here is what makes it difficult. You may say 'Gidicem', but there are enough people who say 'Gidecem' and when Im in a hurry I even might say 'Gitçem'.
The same counts for -iyor-. If I ask a friend if she will go, I wont say: Gidiyor musun? I will say: Gidiyon mu? But to my in-laws, I would definitely make a full sentence.
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| 7. |
19 May 2008 Mon 02:28 pm |
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Quoting Deli_kizin: Quoting incişka: Cos, does any native speaker say "Gideceğim" in speech? We just say "Gidicem". So we still say that Turkish is read/pronounced in the same way it is written. But it's not the way around actually.. We speak differently.. |
Well, here is what makes it difficult. You may say 'Gidicem', but there are enough people who say 'Gidecem' and when Im in a hurry I even might say 'Gitçem'.
The same counts for -iyor-. If I ask a friend if she will go, I wont say: Gidiyor musun? I will say: Gidiyon mu? But to my in-laws, I would definitely make a full sentence. |
You are right When I talk to my classmates,we don't consider the rules but when we talk to our teachers,we ask "Geliyor musunuz?".
Once I asked "Hasta mısın,hocam?" when she had cleaned the board before I finished writing but I didn't say it intentionally
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| 8. |
19 May 2008 Mon 07:13 pm |
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TDK also invented "çok oturgaçlı götürgeç" for otobüs and "çatal batmaz kaydıraç" for zeytin. Do we use them? simply No.. So no any institution can rule a languale, but it can only make suggestions. It's again the people to decide if they will take these suggestions or not. Foreign learners of Turkish can be taught to speak to their teachers or elders like "gideceğim, yapacağım, biliyor musun.. etc.. etc.." but here when we dont speak to them like that. We still say gidicem, gidecem, gitçem.. whatever... But we never say "gideceğim". When we talk to our teachers, the only thing we pay attention to is not to use slang and to use "siz" instead of "sen". Even my Prof. of Turkish at university defends that TDK needs modification
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| 9. |
19 May 2008 Mon 07:17 pm |
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Quoting incişka: Even my Prof. of Turkish at university defends that TDK needs modification |
Agreed, never said that it doesnt need modification. ıf you look at their old works, they look rather simple and pathetic too. Half of their workers wasnt even a linguist, they were just people who had a love for language.
Was just saying you shouldnt underestimate their influence on the turkish of today. We probably wouldnt be able to speak it if it werent for the changes Atatürk made through TDK
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| 10. |
19 May 2008 Mon 08:20 pm |
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Quoting incişka: Quoting yilgun-7: FOR FOREİGN FRİENDS=
Turkish Language is being ruled by TDK (TÃœRK DİL KURUMU-(The Turkish Language Association).
If you learn Turkish Language, you can buy these two books from TDK and then work with TURKISH LANGUAGE CLASS SITE=
1- İMLA KILAVUZU
2-TÃœRKÇENİN GRAMERİ
These books is being published by TDK in Ankara, Türkiye.
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Ohh PLZZZ!!! OK recommend the books! But dont say the language is RULED by TDK!!! It's just theoretical! It's ONLY the folks who RULE the language! I think TDK should change their grammar to some extent.. Cos, does any native speaker say "Gideceğim" in speech? We just say "Gidicem". So we still say that Turkish is read/pronounced in the same way it is written. But it's not the way around actually.. We speak differently.. And cos of those grammar books from which Turkish learners study and learn Turkish, they sound, when they talk, kind of weird to the native speakers |
I think you are mixing apples & oranges with your example, and calling the mixture water melons...
What is meant by "Turkish being written as it is pronounced" is that the language is written phonetically in comparison to languages, such as English or German, where the spelling of the word is often arbitrary and doesn't have much to do with the way the word is pronounced.
Take, for example, the "F" sound in "Fish", and the "F" sound in "Philosophy." Or, the "G" in "Good, and the "G" sounds in "Gene, Grand, Girth, Gyrate, Glade, and Germinate." The letters "DU" in the word "DUtch" do not carry the same phonetic value as the "DU" in "DUke", and the "DU" of "DUke" is different from the "DU" of "DUck." Phonetically written languages, such as Turkish, Japanese, Indonesian etc are called this way because each letter can only have one specific sound assigned to it exclusively.
The examples you give are simple speech practicalities that exist in every linguistic community. We all slur and shorten words, omit endings, as we see fit. It is just a minor form of laziness. "How are you doing" becomes "Hayyoudoin." The role of institutions, such as TDk, is not to correct the way people pronounce the language, but to set a standard of teaching the language. If you are a fiction writer, you may perhaps write "Hayyoudoin" in your novel. If you are a professor, though, the TDK would rightfully intervene if you suggested printing "Hayyoudoin" in textbooks and official publications. There are also etymological reasons for keeping the spelling standard. Daily speech has lost a lot of the clues that indicate to the origin of Turkish words, whereas the written form still retains quite a few of these.
In comparison to the English, Welsh, German or Swedish spellings, which are arbitrary, I think the Turkish spelling is doing quite fine. I should also mention that the reason why our children do not have to waste their time with ridiculous spelling games called "Spelling Bee" or "Spell it" is because, thanks to our phonetic spelling, our children learn how to spell the logical way. The Spelling Bees, on the other hand, have to memorize arbitrary formations - and who can memorize the best wins the game. Along the same lines, the Korean writing system, which was devised in the late 14th century by King Hangul, is considered by linguists quite possibily the easiest writing system to learn. Korean children as young as 2 years old have been observed to learn how to read. Again, the key factor behind this success is the same phonetic principle. Like Turkish, Korean is also written phonetically.
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| 11. |
20 May 2008 Tue 12:53 am |
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Quoting cynicmystic: Quoting incişka: Quoting yilgun-7: FOR FOREİGN FRİENDS=
Turkish Language is being ruled by TDK (TÃœRK DİL KURUMU-(The Turkish Language Association).
If you learn Turkish Language, you can buy these two books from TDK and then work with TURKISH LANGUAGE CLASS SITE=
1- İMLA KILAVUZU
2-TÃœRKÇENİN GRAMERİ
These books is being published by TDK in Ankara, Türkiye.
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Ohh PLZZZ!!! OK recommend the books! But dont say the language is RULED by TDK!!! It's just theoretical! It's ONLY the folks who RULE the language! I think TDK should change their grammar to some extent.. Cos, does any native speaker say "Gideceğim" in speech? We just say "Gidicem". So we still say that Turkish is read/pronounced in the same way it is written. But it's not the way around actually.. We speak differently.. And cos of those grammar books from which Turkish learners study and learn Turkish, they sound, when they talk, kind of weird to the native speakers |
I think you are mixing apples & oranges with your example, and calling the mixture water melons...
What is meant by "Turkish being written as it is pronounced" is that the language is written phonetically in comparison to languages, such as English or German, where the spelling of the word is often arbitrary and doesn't have much to do with the way the word is pronounced.
Take, for example, the "F" sound in "Fish", and the "F" sound in "Philosophy." Or, the "G" in "Good, and the "G" sounds in "Gene, Grand, Girth, Gyrate, Glade, and Germinate." The letters "DU" in the word "DUtch" do not carry the same phonetic value as the "DU" in "DUke", and the "DU" of "DUke" is different from the "DU" of "DUck." Phonetically written languages, such as Turkish, Japanese, Indonesian etc are called this way because each letter can only have one specific sound assigned to it exclusively.
The examples you give are simple speech practicalities that exist in every linguistic community. We all slur and shorten words, omit endings, as we see fit. It is just a minor form of laziness. "How are you doing" becomes "Hayyoudoin." The role of institutions, such as TDk, is not to correct the way people pronounce the language, but to set a standard of teaching the language. If you are a fiction writer, you may perhaps write "Hayyoudoin" in your novel. If you are a professor, though, the TDK would rightfully intervene if you suggested printing "Hayyoudoin" in textbooks and official publications. There are also etymological reasons for keeping the spelling standard. Daily speech has lost a lot of the clues that indicate to the origin of Turkish words, whereas the written form still retains quite a few of these.
In comparison to the English, Welsh, German or Swedish spellings, which are arbitrary, I think the Turkish spelling is doing quite fine. I should also mention that the reason why our children do not have to waste their time with ridiculous spelling games called "Spelling Bee" or "Spell it" is because, thanks to our phonetic spelling, our children learn how to spell the logical way. The Spelling Bees, on the other hand, have to memorize arbitrary formations - and who can memorize the best wins the game. Along the same lines, the Korean writing system, which was devised in the late 14th century by King Hangul, is considered by linguists quite possibily the easiest writing system to learn. Korean children as young as 2 years old have been observed to learn how to read. Again, the key factor behind this success is the same phonetic principle. Like Turkish, Korean is also written phonetically. |
and "n" in neden and n in binbaşı are not pronounced the same. ç in ağaç and ç in ağaçta are not pronounced the same way. n becomes something like "m" and ç becomes like the "sch" in russian. u needn't give me such long explanations. I'm a linguist as well and from a linggustic point of view, I take the language the way it is accepted by the speakers, not by how the books force grammar. I take the practical side, not the theoretical. and I'm happy with that
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| 12. |
20 May 2008 Tue 02:58 am |
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You surely do not sound like a linguist to be frank with you...
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| 13. |
20 May 2008 Tue 03:20 am |
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Quoting cynicmystic: You surely do not sound like a linguist to be frank with you... |
it's up to you man think as u wish
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| 14. |
20 May 2008 Tue 09:27 am |
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Quoting incişka:
and "n" in neden and n in binbaşı are not pronounced the same. ç in ağaç and ç in ağaçta are not pronounced the same way. n becomes something like "m" and ç becomes like the "sch" in russian. u needn't give me such long explanations. I'm a linguist as well and from a linggustic point of view, I take the language the way it is accepted by the speakers, not by how the books force grammar. I take the practical side, not the theoretical. and I'm happy with that |
Yes, but the n in binbaşı is pronounced as an m because that's also a 'rule'. The same happens when you pronounce Istanbul. an 'n' written between an 'a' and a 'b' gets pronounced like an m. Still, if you pronounce them exactly the same you won't get any confusion. If you pronounce duke like duck people will first have to think before they get what you mean.
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| 15. |
20 May 2008 Tue 10:18 am |
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That's because of Phonological Rules like The Rule of Assimilation. They account for what you perceive as different pronunciation of the same sound.
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| 16. |
20 May 2008 Tue 12:42 pm |
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Quoting Chantal: Quoting incişka:
and "n" in neden and n in binbaşı are not pronounced the same. ç in ağaç and ç in ağaçta are not pronounced the same way. n becomes something like "m" and ç becomes like the "sch" in russian. u needn't give me such long explanations. I'm a linguist as well and from a linggustic point of view, I take the language the way it is accepted by the speakers, not by how the books force grammar. I take the practical side, not the theoretical. and I'm happy with that |
Yes, but the n in binbaşı is pronounced as an m because that's also a 'rule'. The same happens when you pronounce Istanbul. an 'n' written between an 'a' and a 'b' gets pronounced like an m. |
Yes, it's a rule, but not by TDK or anything else but cos the people speak it this way. Grammar books didnt make it a rule themselves, people would speak it that way, so they made it a rule.
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| 17. |
21 May 2008 Wed 09:02 am |
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Quoting incişka:
Yes, it's a rule, but not by TDK or anything else but cos the people speak it this way. Grammar books didnt make it a rule themselves, people would speak it that way, so they made it a rule. |
Isn't that how all grammar books at first start? Or at least get adapted? Originally English grammar books were based on the Latin language, but when they figured out that that didn't really work they changed them. People always first 'create a rule' before the grammar books can use them as a rule right..?
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| 18. |
21 May 2008 Wed 10:25 am |
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Quoting cynicmystic: Quoting incişka: Quoting yilgun-7: FOR FOREİGN FRİENDS=
Turkish Language is being ruled by TDK (TÃœRK DİL KURUMU-(The Turkish Language Association).
If you learn Turkish Language, you can buy these two books from TDK and then work with TURKISH LANGUAGE CLASS SITE=
1- İMLA KILAVUZU
2-TÃœRKÇENİN GRAMERİ
These books is being published by TDK in Ankara, Türkiye.
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Ohh PLZZZ!!! OK recommend the books! But dont say the language is RULED by TDK!!! It's just theoretical! It's ONLY the folks who RULE the language! I think TDK should change their grammar to some extent.. Cos, does any native speaker say "Gideceğim" in speech? We just say "Gidicem". So we still say that Turkish is read/pronounced in the same way it is written. But it's not the way around actually.. We speak differently.. And cos of those grammar books from which Turkish learners study and learn Turkish, they sound, when they talk, kind of weird to the native speakers |
I think you are mixing apples & oranges with your example, and calling the mixture water melons...
What is meant by "Turkish being written as it is pronounced" is that the language is written phonetically in comparison to languages, such as English or German, where the spelling of the word is often arbitrary and doesn't have much to do with the way the word is pronounced.
Take, for example, the "F" sound in "Fish", and the "F" sound in "Philosophy." Or, the "G" in "Good, and the "G" sounds in "Gene, Grand, Girth, Gyrate, Glade, and Germinate." The letters "DU" in the word "DUtch" do not carry the same phonetic value as the "DU" in "DUke", and the "DU" of "DUke" is different from the "DU" of "DUck." Phonetically written languages, such as Turkish, Japanese, Indonesian etc are called this way because each letter can only have one specific sound assigned to it exclusively.
The examples you give are simple speech practicalities that exist in every linguistic community. We all slur and shorten words, omit endings, as we see fit. It is just a minor form of laziness. "How are you doing" becomes "Hayyoudoin." The role of institutions, such as TDk, is not to correct the way people pronounce the language, but to set a standard of teaching the language. If you are a fiction writer, you may perhaps write "Hayyoudoin" in your novel. If you are a professor, though, the TDK would rightfully intervene if you suggested printing "Hayyoudoin" in textbooks and official publications. There are also etymological reasons for keeping the spelling standard. Daily speech has lost a lot of the clues that indicate to the origin of Turkish words, whereas the written form still retains quite a few of these.
In comparison to the English, Welsh, German or Swedish spellings, which are arbitrary, I think the Turkish spelling is doing quite fine. I should also mention that the reason why our children do not have to waste their time with ridiculous spelling games called "Spelling Bee" or "Spell it" is because, thanks to our phonetic spelling, our children learn how to spell the logical way. The Spelling Bees, on the other hand, have to memorize arbitrary formations - and who can memorize the best wins the game. Along the same lines, the Korean writing system, which was devised in the late 14th century by King Hangul, is considered by linguists quite possibily the easiest writing system to learn. Korean children as young as 2 years old have been observed to learn how to read. Again, the key factor behind this success is the same phonetic principle. Like Turkish, Korean is also written phonetically. |
Phonetic alphbets are a big improvement. I like Turkish.
English should be fixed. IMHO.
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| 19. |
21 May 2008 Wed 09:54 pm |
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Quoting Chantal: Quoting incişka:
Yes, it's a rule, but not by TDK or anything else but cos the people speak it this way. Grammar books didnt make it a rule themselves, people would speak it that way, so they made it a rule. |
Isn't that how all grammar books at first start? Or at least get adapted? Originally English grammar books were based on the Latin language, but when they figured out that that didn't really work they changed them. People always first 'create a rule' before the grammar books can use them as a rule right..? |
That's what I already said actually Thanks for quoting without plagiarism 
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| 20. |
26 May 2008 Mon 01:19 am |
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congrats...
we have learned something new.
Quoting incişka: Quoting Chantal: Quoting incişka:
Yes, it's a rule, but not by TDK or anything else but cos the people speak it this way. Grammar books didnt make it a rule themselves, people would speak it that way, so they made it a rule. |
Isn't that how all grammar books at first start? Or at least get adapted? Originally English grammar books were based on the Latin language, but when they figured out that that didn't really work they changed them. People always first 'create a rule' before the grammar books can use them as a rule right..? |
That's what I already said actually Thanks for quoting without plagiarism |
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| 21. |
26 May 2008 Mon 05:12 pm |
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Quoting cynicmystic: congrats...
we have learned something new.
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Can you please find something else to keep yourself busy with?
You dont need to pop up on everything I say to someone else. Really, dont bother, take it easy... I'm sure you can find something better to keep yourself busy with. Dont quote me or reply to me anymore (including this message and pms) cos you are really annoying me and if .... never mind (I better keep it to myself)
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