General/Off-topic |
|
|
|
|
|
Veiled Muslim woman denied French citizenship
|
| 1. |
15 Jul 2008 Tue 01:13 am |
|
amid concerns over her 'radical' religious views.
Is a burqa incompatible with French nationality?
France has denied citizenship to a veiled Moroccan woman on the grounds that her 'radical' Islam is incompatible with French values, a legal ruling revealed.
The case will re-ignite debate about how to reconcile religious freedom with other rights, which many in France feel are being challenged by the way of life of some Muslims.
Le Monde newspaper said it is the first time a Muslim applicant had been rejected because of personal religious practice.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1034412/Veiled-Muslim-woman-denied-French-citizenship-amid-concerns-radical-religious-views.html
|
|
| 2. |
15 Jul 2008 Tue 10:46 am |
|
Perhaps when the Islamic world also offer the same freedom for practitioners of other faiths to enter their countries and live without fear of persecution, then the scales will be balanced all over the world, and more tolerance will be born.
|
|
| 3. |
15 Jul 2008 Tue 11:55 am |
|
Quoting Cacık: Perhaps when the Islamic world also offer the same freedom for practitioners of other faiths to enter their countries and live without fear of persecution, then the scales will be balanced all over the world, and more tolerance will be born. |
what is the "Islamic World".
|
|
| 4. |
15 Jul 2008 Tue 12:08 pm |
|
Quoting tamikidakika: Quoting Cacık: Perhaps when the Islamic world also offer the same freedom for practitioners of other faiths to enter their countries and live without fear of persecution, then the scales will be balanced all over the world, and more tolerance will be born. |
what is the "Islamic World". |
She is right Tamikidakika.
You can not say Islamic countries are letting people easily practice other faiths.
Even in Turkey, look at what happened in Malatya, Look at what happened in Trabzon, look at the news about missionaries..
|
|
| 5. |
15 Jul 2008 Tue 01:58 pm |
|
Quoting thehandsom: Quoting tamikidakika: Quoting Cacık: Perhaps when the Islamic world also offer the same freedom for practitioners of other faiths to enter their countries and live without fear of persecution, then the scales will be balanced all over the world, and more tolerance will be born. |
what is the "Islamic World". |
She is right Tamikidakika.
You can not say Islamic countries are letting people easily practice other faiths.
Even in Turkey, look at what happened in Malatya, Look at what happened in Trabzon, look at the news about missionaries.. |
I just asked what is meant by the "Islamic world". As far as I know Turkey is a secular country. If you are so uneasy about what happened in Malatya, why do you praise AKP constantly, or again was it yet another job of Ergenekon, the 600 years old evil?
|
|
| 6. |
15 Jul 2008 Tue 02:36 pm |
|
Perhaps I should have used the phrase all countries where Islam is at least 95% of the practiced religion. That is what I meant by Islamic world - sorry if I confused you or offended you Tamikidakika. In many of these countries, other faith followers seem to be subject to much persecution. Whereas in Europe many muslims are living quite freely and yes there IS religious racial attacks on them sometimes, but these are seen as crimes and where possible - punished. But IMHO they do still have religious freedom, there are Muslim politians in Parliment and in the House of Lords, Muslim police, Muslim religious education teachers in mainstream schools, Halil foods in all supermarkets, many mosques have been built and universities have Muslim centres and active communities etc...
My point was, in countries where Islam is at least 95% of the practice religion, other faith followers are often persecuted much more and in some cases violently and have hardly any of the above points, Christian or Jew Councils, Christian religion teachers, etc.... Perhaps if there wasn't so much violence or suppression towards other faith followers and lack of freedom for these followers in 95% Muslim countries, then non-Muslim countries would feel more comfortable with accepting more.
I think many Europeans would feel they have done much to be accepting so far, but now still see no counter-freedom on the other end, therefore, people seem to be becoming more unaccepting.
I am most certainly not claiming the be right here at all. Only trying to explain my point that's all.
|
|
| 7. |
15 Jul 2008 Tue 02:42 pm |
|
I think that not only is there a problem with Islamic countries, but also with the Muslim communities in the West. These people move to western countries and join radical groups that preach hatred of the West, stage terrorist attacks, don't accept mixing with westerners, look down on them... Not all Muslims, but many! Enough for it to be a political and social problem.
|
|
| 8. |
15 Jul 2008 Tue 03:06 pm |
|
İ dont know which countries you are referring to Cacık,as you may know the freedom of practicing own religion is given in İslam
We have about %10 Christians in my country and you would find in almost every area there is a Church between the mosques
There are Christians schools along with regular public schools which of course they can attend if they want,shops where to sell pork,bakeries selling fast food for the Christians for their big fast 'sry i dont know its name they call it here big fast'
İ just wonder if the news was 'Christian woman denied Saudi Arabia citizenship'
What the comments would be ?! 
|
|
| 9. |
15 Jul 2008 Tue 04:04 pm |
|
Quoting CANLI:
İ dont know which countries you are referring to Cacık,as you may know the freedom of practicing own religion is given in İslam
We have about %10 Christians in my country and you would find in almost every area there is a Church between the mosques
There are Christians schools along with regular public schools which of course they can attend if they want,shops where to sell pork,bakeries selling fast food for the Christians for their big fast 'sry i dont know its name they call it here big fast'
İ just wonder if the news was 'Christian woman denied Saudi Arabia citizenship'
What the comments would be ?! |
I have been living here in Turkey for years and years.
Unfortunately, I have to disagree with you that "there is a Church between the mosque" - that makes it sound as if there are an equal number, which is an overstatement. There are about 30 churches in Istanbul that I can research on the net. Also according to Turkish national statistics, 98% of Turkey is Muslim. Which leaves only 2% for other practising faiths including Judaism and Christianity. Also I would suggest that there are less that 10 Christian schools in Istanbul alone. When I refer to Christian schools I really mean Christian schools, all teachers are Christian for example. Not colleges like Robert College that although set up by Americans is not a Christian College as it teaches the regular National Diploma system which is taught all over Turkey.
When you consider a city of 15 million, 30 Churches and less that 10 Christian schools is a tiny figure. I can think of 30 mosques in just Uskudar or in just Florya alone.
The fast you refer to is the Catholic time of Lent. It is a fast of 40 days leading up to Easter.
I do know that you have "some" religious freedom in Islam with regards to non-islamic faith, but the sad fact is in the majority of countries with Islam as the majority faith, it is not so well tolerated *socially* - the law may say so, but often people do not.
But I do think Turkey is the MOST tolerant of ALL these countries. Without a doubt I believe this. But I still feel it could be freer here.
|
|
| 10. |
15 Jul 2008 Tue 04:11 pm |
|
Quoting Cacık:
I do know that you have "some" religious freedom in Islam with regards to non-islamic faith, but the sad fact is in the majority of countries with Islam as the majority faith, it is not so well tolerated *socially* - the law may say so, but often people do not.
But I do think Turkey is the MOST tolerant of ALL these countries. Without a doubt I believe this. But I still feel it could be freer here. |
This post is "the moral of the day".. 
|
|
| 11. |
15 Jul 2008 Tue 04:11 pm |
|
Quoting Cacık:
I have been living here in Turkey for years and years.
|
Actually Cacık,i was talking about Egypt,not Türkiye
İm sry,my mistake i didnt clarify it
And i didnt say the number of the churches and mosques are equal also,but within the one area there is a church to serve it among the mosques that you wouldnt miss
İm my avenue there would be about 30 churches or more
And yes im also talking about Christian schools following the Church where the headmistress is Nun for girls schools and the headmaster is a religious man in boys school,i dont know if he is a priest or not actually
|
|
| 12. |
15 Jul 2008 Tue 04:31 pm |
|
Quoting Cacık:
The fast you refer to is the Catholic time of Lent. It is a fast of 40 days leading up to Easter.
|
Yes maybe that one,they fast before Easter which comes in April,yes ?
But ours are not Catholic,they are Orthodox !
Same maybe ?
İs there another fast before Christmas ?!
|
|
| 13. |
15 Jul 2008 Tue 07:34 pm |
|
I wonder if they denied her citizenship because of her niqab alone, or they found proof that she practices radical islam 
|
|
| 14. |
15 Jul 2008 Tue 07:34 pm |
|
Quoting CANLI: Quoting Cacık:
The fast you refer to is the Catholic time of Lent. It is a fast of 40 days leading up to Easter.
|
Yes maybe that one,they fast before Easter which comes in April,yes ?
But ours are not Catholic,they are Orthodox !
Same maybe ?
İs there another fast before Christmas ?! |
Yes, I think you have mostly Coptic Christians in Egypt. There are also other Eastern Orthodox Churchs were the fasting period is much stricter than the Roman Catholic one. The dates of starting and ending are different. There can be as much as almost a month difference.
FYI
Coptic Orthodox Church
|
|
| 15. |
15 Jul 2008 Tue 09:26 pm |
|
Great link alameda,thank you for posting it
|
|
| 16. |
15 Jul 2008 Tue 10:49 pm |
|
Quoting alameda: Quoting CANLI: Quoting Cacık:
The fast you refer to is the Catholic time of Lent. It is a fast of 40 days leading up to Easter.
|
Yes maybe that one,they fast before Easter which comes in April,yes ?
But ours are not Catholic,they are Orthodox !
Same maybe ?
İs there another fast before Christmas ?! |
Yes, I think you have mostly Coptic Christians in Egypt. There are also other Eastern Orthodox Churchs were the fasting period is much stricter than the Roman Catholic one. The dates of starting and ending are different. There can be as much as almost a month difference.
FYI
Coptic Orthodox Church |
You also failed to mention that Muslims in the 1940'attacked the Coptics and burnt their churches. So are there really that many churches in Egypt, when 90% are Muslims?
|
|
| 17. |
15 Jul 2008 Tue 10:55 pm |
|
For those interested in religous freedom.
Coptic Christians
|
|
| 18. |
15 Jul 2008 Tue 11:12 pm |
|
Quoting teaschip:
You also failed to mention that Muslims in the 1940'attacked the Coptics and burnt their churches. So are there really that many churches in Egypt, when 90% are Muslims? |
Yes there are
Well,my dear,as i told you before you do need to read some history if you want to talk about one
Actually not only the Churches been burnt,but whole Cairo too
And that was done by people 'puppet' hired by GREAT BRİTAN
As you may know on that time Egypt was rulled by Great Britan
And the Cairo burns so as the purchasing of the rotten weapons 'the rifle was exploding on Egyptian soldiers when using its'
And those were the straw which caused our revolution at 1952 and become republic,then kicking Great Britan out at 1956
|
|
| 19. |
15 Jul 2008 Tue 11:38 pm |
|
Edited: İ had replyed to that article but after finishing reading it i deleated it
İts nothing but BİG joke !
Have you any idea the number of Christian Successful businessmen in here comparing to Muslims ?
Have you any idea the percentage we are talking about ?!
Even they present just %10 of Egyptians
So, ''Job opportunities are restricted ''
Yes,sure,they cant work at their own business !
İm sure there are many articles up there more crideted about Egypt 'Christians and Muslims' than that delhi one
Even if those articles were made by angry Christians they wont say those craps as those are here.
You can find better one
''REFERENCES
1. P18 "The Copts Since the Arab Invasion". Shawky F. Karas The American, Canadian & Australian C. Coptic Associations New Jersey 1985.
2. Pviii "The Muslim Brotherhood" Saeed Hawwa, Hindustan Publications, Delhi 1983 ''
|
|
| 20. |
16 Jul 2008 Wed 12:42 am |
|
.
|
|
| 21. |
16 Jul 2008 Wed 12:49 am |
|
Quoting zhang ziyi:
Some history? Let us learn it  |
My, that was a looooong article. Can you include your source? It seems you copied an extensive text from 'somewhere'...it would be nice to know where. What is their credibility?
|
|
| 22. |
16 Jul 2008 Wed 12:53 am |
|
.
|
|
| 23. |
16 Jul 2008 Wed 01:30 am |
|
Quoting zhang ziyi: Quoting alameda: Quoting zhang ziyi:
Some history? Let us learn it |
My, that was a looooong article. Can you include your source? It seems you copied an extensive text from 'somewhere'...it would be nice to know where. What is their credibility? |
I used the same source you used before |
I always include links to my resources. You do not.
|
|
| 24. |
16 Jul 2008 Wed 01:40 am |
|
Quoting zhang ziyi: Some history? Let us learn it
|
Well,our history is too big that you could hardly learn it from few Wiki pages...
But you can try
For such great country like ours with our long history,you can actually find many links and many sources also
Some with us,some against us,and some simply saying the truth
So,if you really interested you will have your right answers,and if you want to know more,you can ask me and i would be glad to help you with if i can,but if you are not....then Wiki would be enough i guess,and also you can use Tea's link, its ok by me
İ can also post links of the hardships Muslims face in China
But if im interested,i would read them,ask about them not just post them
İf i just post them in same content as you did,then i aim to something else,even you can smell it lol
So,sorry,i wont give you that satisfaction and make things easy for you and discuss it
İf only for one thing,i know that you are not interested .
You had the trouble to bring this article up that way,and that is satisfying enough for me 
İf you are interested you can do your homework,you must earn it the hard way tho
İf you dont...
Then its not any problem to me 
You can think,believe,say whatever you want its not harming me in any way nor my country of course
Ohhh,mmmm,i forgot to ask you why did you left China and went to USA ?
You have said you are American/Chinese as i remember, havent you ?!
Quoting zhang ziyi: such tolerance made many Copts leave Egypt . |
On a second thought,forget it
|
|
| 25. |
16 Jul 2008 Wed 06:05 am |
|
Canli, so are you saying that this article is false? (I am really trying to learn.)
|
|
| 26. |
16 Jul 2008 Wed 08:58 am |
|
Quoting alameda:
My, that was a looooong article. Can you include your source? It seems you copied an extensive text from 'somewhere'...it would be nice to know where. What is their credibility? |
Oh come on alameda you are adept at finding links...you know all you have to do is type the first few lines into google and you have it all at your fingertips.
Maybe if you weren't so afraid to tell us all what makes you the subject matter expert on all things muslim/turkish/everything-in-the-world, then others wouldn't hesitate to answer when you ask questions about their sources or expertise.....just a thought.
|
|
| 27. |
16 Jul 2008 Wed 04:01 pm |
|
That is another reason why I don't feel compelled to post links. Since we have members here who like to scrutinize every link you post and insist they are wrong. But for some reason ALL of their links have validity to it. 
|
|
| 28. |
16 Jul 2008 Wed 06:31 pm |
|
Quoting catwoman: Canli, so are you saying that this article is false? (I am really trying to learn.) |
Delighted cat
But i will pm it to you.
As i said,i have no intend to make things easy for ZZ if he/she cares
And if he/she doesnt,then there is no need for her/him to know
|
|
| 29. |
16 Jul 2008 Wed 06:41 pm |
|
Actually tea,posting a link when you can give more credit to what you say
İ would post link to you about Cairo burn in 1940 tho,causes and whom did it except they manly in Arabic
İn zz case,he/she didnt post a link for a reason that he/she doesnt have ONE link for that article
He/she actually quote from many wiki articles the bad paragraphs they say 'no matter if they right or wrong,concept is matter'about İslam and Christians stiuations in my country
So for that reason too i wont post a reply not here anyway
He/she wants to know,then can do his/her homework
Doesnt want to know,then i dont actually care
Sry,but it wont do me nor my country any more or less.
|
|
| 30. |
16 Jul 2008 Wed 07:03 pm |
|
Canli, that article is taken from Wikipedia.
Waiting for your PM, thank you.
|
|
| 31. |
16 Jul 2008 Wed 08:33 pm |
|
.
|
|
| 32. |
16 Jul 2008 Wed 08:46 pm |
|
.
|
|
| 33. |
17 Jul 2008 Thu 12:49 am |
|
Quoting zhang ziyi: Quoting CANLI: Quoting catwoman: Canli, so are you saying that this article is false? (I am really trying to learn.) |
Delighted cat
But i will pm it to you.
As i said,i have no intend to make things easy for ZZ if he/she cares
And if he/she doesnt,then there is no need for her/him to know |
CANLI,
Its now last time I ask you to address me correct. I suspect you do it intentionally. And I take it as offense and report to the Admin.
Do they teach you good manners in Egypt about how to regard genders? Or you simply don't see the difference between male and female. |
mmmmm,i didnt know there was a first time to start with !
Well,i dont understand your question actually
What do you mean,'Do they teach you good manners in Egypt about how to regard genders?'
İf i take the first part,it would be offensive,if i take the whole sentence,i dont understand it...
So,actually i wont reply it,and wont report to admin too,he has enough reports i guess
Second question,i take it you are refering to my usage of 'he/she' thing ?
Well,i dont know if you are male or female,so i wrote both so you dont feel offended
İ didnt know i should know if you are male or female by just reading your posts !
As for your profile,you are saying you are male,and putting a female pic ,so actually i didnt get it which is which
İf that offended you,you could simply pm me about it and i will clarify it.
So maybe if there was a first time 'that you ask me to adress you correctly' then there wouldnt be last time,and you wouldnt be offended about it that long
İt wasnt my intention anyway.
You've reported it to admin so im sure problem will be solved shortly.
|
|
| 34. |
17 Jul 2008 Thu 01:14 am |
|
Quoting zhang ziyi:
CANLI, you take things personally. I had/have no intention to harm your emotions (I don't care) or your country. I don't think I can. I think you take everything as an attack (you have a very strong self-defense instinct) while I was just responding to your opinion that you gave about 'How everyone leaves in peace with everyone and non-muslims are respected and treated equally in Egypt'.
You also showed your opinion about dogs being eaten and I didn't take it as an insult.
When I say there are 'hole' toilets in Egypt and in China, you feel insecure I included your country.
|
Finally we agree on one thing,that we both dont care so we both cant harm each other emotions too
And thank you for the therapy,was an eye opener.
ZZ,
You just dont get it
You are even using the word 'your opinion' here too
İ was not saying an opinion,im saying something i live it here,and you respond to me by posting some article from the web to tell me how do we 'MY PEOPLE' live in my OWN country?!!!
So,not logical to me actually
İ remember we had debats here,and my country been included in the middle,i had it with keithl,with gezbella,they have been to my country,visited it,so we can actually have that kind of debat
As visitors they see things,they may understand it right,they may understand it wrong,so we do have base to talk about,to argue too
Even some people came,saw our lives here and report something else TOTALLY,and it happened too
But giving me article to tell me how do we live here ?!
Same as 'hole' toilets too,i said it was here once in the past,even i dont know when,but i know it existed
i said you may find it in country sides
But we dont use it,not in public,not in people's houses...
We just dont use it
My grandparents didnt have it which we are talking about the 19th
So if i say yes we do use it...then its not true
İ dont know how can this offend you too ?!
As for eating dogs,i dont believe i said anything that may offend you even its forbidden in my religion to eat dogs i didnt judge it
İ didnt say its good or bad,i didnt say anything for that matter.
İ simply didnt appreciate that one can eat his old pet,and that im afraid is a personal opinion even if many agree with,still personal
Quoting zhang ziyi:
Quoting CANLI:
Ohhh,mmmm,i forgot to ask you why did you left China and went to USA ?
You have said you are American/Chinese as i remember, havent you ?!
|
I suppose this is not your business. I do not take out to the forums my/your personal business and lifestyle. |
Fair enough
|
|
| 35. |
17 Jul 2008 Thu 01:36 am |
|
Quoting catwoman: Canli, that article is taken from Wikipedia.
Waiting for your PM, thank you. |
Yes,then read the whole of it at Wiki then
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copt
Some points till i pm you about it,
-İf they were REALLY that depresed in my country they wouldnt dare to do such
'Copts in modern Egypt
In 2005 a group of Coptic activists created a flag to represent Copts worldwide[22]. This flag is not officially recognized by the Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria'
Flag
- Jizya in İslam
was paid by none Muslims as extra tax for the reason that Muslims defending them,their lives,their properties
Because they werent joining the army.
İn my country,they dont pay it,and they join the army
- Christians leave Egypt to go to USA,and Canada,for same reason that you or zz left your countries and went to USA
İ didnt mean to ask zz for personal information,i meant to make ZZ understand it personally without any explanations from me.
Why Christians and not Muslims,you can ask USA about it
The rest will pm you later.
|
|
|
