When I heard who McCain picked, I was overjoyed with excitement.  Finally someone who I can relate to.

http://www.speroforum.com/site/article.asp?id=16042&t=Some+things+to+like+about+Sarah+Palin

She has her good and bad points.. Yes it is great that she is not afraid to throw other politians under the bus for over spending.. and it is good that she will stand fast to her convictions and beliefs. I just wonder what will change or what she will have changed in the pro-life arena.  Her own daughter is pregnant and not wanting to keep the child, yet she is making that choice for her by not allowing her to abort and there have even been talks that she is forcing a marriage to save face.  There is a time to look out the window and a time to look in the mirror.  You cant change what has already happened, but she could admit that maybe her parenting style is what lead to this happening.

Conservatives tend to believe that "abstinence only" should be taught in schools, and that simply not talking about a problem will make sure it never happens.  I personally dont want someone in the whitehouse who has this view.  We already have too many teen parents. These are children who dont know the first thing about taking care of themselves let alone a child.  I know these are things you learn as you experience them, but these are supposed to be our future.. and we are not molding them to make good choices. 

This is not the only issue that is lacking for her.. there has been a clear and concise limit to education programs in schools. Religion has no place in schools and teaching the "creation theory" is just plain wrong.  Let everyone believe what they will, but that is a families choice whether or not to introduce religion to a child, not the local, state or federal governments.  If that is allowed, what will be next?  That is why we have public and private schools. If you want your child introduced to any type of religion, find a school that teaches your beliefs. 

These of course are just subjects that mean something to me.. there are other reasons for people whether or not they are for or against McCain/Palin. 

 I know exactly what you mean....finally someone I can relate too!  I really can´t help but like her, in spite of a few shortcomings.

Some of what you say is simply not true.. Palins daughter never said she didn´t want the child, again this is what the left wing media is exploiting and it´s simply not true.  What does her personal family issues have to do with being a good politican by the way? Conservatives don´t have a problem with sex education and yes they do teach this in public AND pivate schools, I know this from experience.  The problem they have is Obama wanting to teach this to first graders.. Teaching "abstinence only" is not a result for growing teen pregnancies.  I´m interested to know what Turkey´s teenage pregnancy rate is.

State and religion doesn´t have a place in schools, however we still impose our Christian religion holidays on children who are in public schools.  Tell those children they will no longer have plays or christmas break...why is everyone such afraid of religion.  The last time I looked saying a little prayer never hurt anyone.  Maybe that´s the problem with kids these days. 

 I dont think her family issues have anything to do with whether she is a good candidate or not.  I just wonder what she will change with her pro-life views.  I think that every woman should have the option available to her whether or not to keep a child.  That should not be used as a form of birth control, as some have done, but it should still be an option with no strings attached to it.  There are many that would see that changed.  I have also not heard of Obama wanting to teach this to first graders.  I dont think they would understand nor be intrested in such a topic!

I also think that Turkey has a much lower rate simply because they have such strong family bonds.  We dont have much of that here anymore.  Teens simply dont listen to their parents nor respect them.  Also we have parents here who have children and then dont teach them or guide them into adulthood.  Family ties here are not strong, like they are in Turkey or many of the other ME nations. 

I am not saying that religion is a bad thing.  Religion is a defining character for many people. I think if we were more religious we wouldnt have some of the issues we have today.  That does not mean that we should teach that in school though. That just means that parents should have an active part in their childrens lives and teach them these beliefs.  I too believe that prayer never hurt anyone, but with so many religions here in the states, I think that would either teach acceptance or create hostilites.  Acceptance and understanding are of course good things to achieve, but all to often it is the hostilities that are happening.  This would just be another reason to single someone or a group out in schools.  We already have enough of that I think.

I´m hoping she DOESN´T change her pro-life views..I happen to agree with her.

 In Turkey teenage pregrancies happen but they happen in villages and among low educated people who do not even go to school.

 Why am I not amazed at this?   I for one think she is dangerous. If you don´t want an abortion, don´t have one! Different religions have very different views on when life begins. Don´t force your ideas on anyone else!

As for being able to manage things, she was mayor of a town with no debts and left it with over $20 million in debts. Another thing I question her loyalty to the US seeing as she has been involved in a succecionist movement aka the AIP.

Add to that the fact that she supports the ariel hunting of wolves and bears, and sued the US government over the Polar Bear´s status on the endangered species act.

"Palin argued there is not enough evidence to support a listing. Polar bears are well-managed and their population has dramatically increased over 30 years as a result of conservation, she said."

Then there is the issue no sex education, global warming denial...I could go on and on and on....I can´t fathom how any thinkng woman could support her.

Well here´s a news flash for you Alamada, she has won the hearts of thousands of woman.. So please do no insult us THINKING woman. Ironically enough she is more qualified than Obama..hahaa. Why do you think the demoncratic party is so threatened by her.  They have to resort to insulting her parenting skills and having to balance raising a family. 

She has made more executive decisions in 2 years as a governor than Obama has in his whole career.  She has led a budget of 10 billion and managing over 24,000 people compared to Obama who gives his experience as managing a campaign of 2, 500.  Nice comparison, huh.

I´m so tired of the environmentialists in this world, they tend to care more for the polar bears than for the survival of human beings.  People are tired of hearing..oh the polar bears.  It´s time to drill!  I could go on as well. Do you want to talk about Obamas corruption with the Chicago mob next? 

 I don´t think you fathom very much, alameda.  Not everyone agrees with your views and that doesn´t make us stupid.     

 A few? I´ve heard quite many here in the Netherlands.

Troopergate - a family problem, enormous debts in the city she left after being mayor there, she wanted to ban books from the library, she wanted religious statements on public schools (which is not allowed!), she has been a sympathiser/member even from the anti-American AIP, she thinks homoseksuality can be ´cured´ by praying a lot, the scandal about her pregnant unmarried daughter (I thought her motto was abstinence?), using federal money for useless prpjects etcetera.

No, I´m not a republican, not a democrate as well. I´m happy we have here more choices without the election hassle the US have. I´m afraid that my views in the eyes of many Americans are going too far, in the fifties I would have been chased by McCarthy.....

*modified* dangerous territory, not in the mood for an arguement

 Whose to say that you are not???I believe your computer has already been compromised!!

Quoting Elisabeth

 Whose to say that you are not???I believe your computer has already been compromised!!

 Is there a re-incarnation of communist hunter McCarthy (btw I´m not a communist!) here on TLC?

 Obviously, you have not read any previous comments from members prior to me.  I guess they were picking a fight?  I haven´t insulted or attacked anyone here on the contrary my dear...why are you taking such offense..it appears you have also contributed.  You really need to educate yourself on change....it is Obama who is screaming change.  Bye the way who said they are satisfied with the way the country is going?  Now tell me who is picking a fight?

One thing comes to mind only "scandals"  that is all they can come up with...how sad.

Might be. But for me as an outstander the complete election ´circus´ in the US is about scandalising eachother... I´m not used to that.

 That is something I agree with..

Educate yourself! Yes it was OBAMA´S theme "Change" now stolen by your precious queen Palin and McCain. By fighting, I did mean posting about politics in the first place. If you plan on voting for this party you surely are saying your satisfied with the way its going. When you tell people half the world away to EDUCATE themselves that would be fine, but do not tell someone a State away, because I take it personal. Stop pretending you are more educated then everyone else on here, it gets so old.

 I agree with you Trudy that they can take on a circus atmosphere.  Even as an American, it is hard to see the truth beneath all the media hype.  Honestly, I think all politicians are corrupted in some way, shape or form.  I don´t completely agree with any candidate.  I vote for the candidates who have the most in common with my personal views.

 Wow, sounds like I struck a nerve. really why are you getting so bent out of shape.  You have no problem alluding to me wanting to start a fight, but I mearly challenge you on your statement about change and now your taking it personal.  Sorry to see that.

Don´t we all? I personally never vote for a person but always for the party ideas - though I know many people do look at the candidate of a party. Here we have about 25 parties (nationalistic right wing (2), (strict) christians (3), liberals (2), democrats (1), socialists (1), green environmental (1), party defending animal rights (1) and most a few minor not important ones that never make Congress), each with between 20 and 60 names on a list. You can while voting pick any of those names. Enough votes for someone it means they can join Congress, even if they are lower on the list than the amount of ´seats´ that party gets - we call it a preference vote. And there is no party that representes all my ideas, I pick the best.

 I envy the fact that you have so many choices.  Unfortunately we only have two.  For a country that is as diverse as ours, it would make sense if our system was a little less limiting!  Its a shame really, because we are really limiting our potential. 

Unfortunately, afterwards, they feel like they ´have come home from the cold fancy fair´

(huh).

Well, it so happens that non religious people also have ideas on this topic! Stop moralizing here with your religious politics and evangelizing us. Some people happen to think that a woman has the right to decide about her own body, Ms thin brain.

 Why does someone have a thin brain if they feel that life begins at conception?  I think Ms. Train is a bit harsh in her statement and could be more tactful, but I agree with this....am I a Ms. Thin Brain too????  Maybe you shouldn´t answer that!

 +1

Politicians´ personal lives may not be our business, and it may not influence their political skills. But her daughter being pregnant and denied an abortion, has more to do with her views on that specific (politically loaded) topic than to do with her personal life. Yes, it is her own choice, and who am I to say she is not allowed to think that way? But it is my choice not to want someone with such narrow ideas in the team of the politician I would vote for. That has nothing to do with me minding her personal business. That´s me thinking her personal views might interfere with the country´s politics.

No, no.... I called her thin brain because she called alameda thick brain... (what goes around, comes around )

You said this to alameda:

And.... please spare your psychoanalysis on me, ok? I say what I mean very clearly, don´t dig too deep.

And you can always express your opinion, if you do that without belittling others.

 As are billions of germs and bacteria we kill all the time. I personally think life is precious, however I feel the life of the uncontestabley alive and human woman takes precedance.  Even a women who was raped would be forced to bear her rapists child. Have you ever known a woman who had her rapists child? I have, and it´s not pretty.  

The start of the POTENTIAL for human life is a zygot

(A zygote (from Greek ζυγωτός zugōtos "joined", from ζυγοῦν zugoun "to join") is a cell that is the result of fertilization. That is, two haploid cells—usually an ovum from a female and a sperm cell from a male—merge into a single diploid cell called the zygote (or zygocyte).A zygote (from Greek ζυγωτός zugōtos "joined", from ζυγοῦν zugoun "to join") is a cell that is the result of fertilization. That is, two haploid cells—usually an ovum from a female and a sperm cell from a male—merge into a single diploid cell called the zygote (or zygocyte)

Is a zygot a baby? In my opinion, NO! Although it has the POTENTIAL to be a human once it´s born.  At the point of conception, it is only a potential. That is my opinion, I would not impose that on you and I certainly don´t want you or Ms. Sara imposing her views on me or anyone else.

Many "Right to Life" groups would even prohibit current birth control methods on the grounds that they prevent the implantation of a zygot. What is next, laws regarding the spilling of one´s seed?

No teas, what I took personal was you telling me to educate myself on change, when clearly you also need a lesson on change. By telling me to educate myself you are implying I am uneducated on the topic. I tend to take that as a personal offense. I was merely saying you started a very heated topic, and was wondering if you were in the mood to argue.

We can agree to disagree

You may be right, you may be wrong *cough wrong cough* regarding Mrs. Palin, and I wish her the best of luck.

Darling, I believe you can find it yourself. And what I meant by psychoanalyzing is where you told me that I got irritated and why.

+1000000000000000

 Different name, same diatribe

A bit like political parties eh?

I believe this also applies to you, my dear!

 Ha ha ha I knew that was coming, it´s standard.

I didn´t say it didn´t

well then, it makes you a hypocrite.

 Hey, you established that fact many times before, but I still haven´t received the club badge yet.  When will you forward it?

 Well if you feel that way and find yourself with a zygot inside you, keep it!....but in no way size shape or form, tell me what to do with my body. It so happens that the stated agenda of McCain and Ms. Palin is to overturn Roe verses Wade...and that I object to very strongly.

 How sad that someone who defends life so passionately then turns around and picks and chooses which lives are defensible.  Do you find humans so superior that we are above all other life forms?  

 Mark your calendars ladies, gentlemen, zygots and bacteria...........GG is in absolute agreement with alameda!!! 

hiccup

Me too!!!

...

 You see, that´s where we differ. Wasn´t I also also a thought.......a dream....a disembodied spirit....???? What am I, what makes me me or you you? When was the last time you had a meaningful conversation with a blastocyst?  Ooops....maybe you flushed one? My point is that this is a very personal decision and one that government does not need to be involved in.

As to controling my body, it seems to me corporate healthcare, pharmaceutical and chemical industries have a pretty big hand in all our bodies.

 Superiority in fine music and arts does not mean superior value to the planet.   I can think of many many many inventions and creations that result in nothing but destruction and harm to all living species and ultimately to humans.  Of course some inventions go straight for the human jugular.  How superior is a species that is bent on destroying itself ? 

 I suggest TrainStation once watches National Geographic Wild documentaries. It surely shows how perfectly some animals were created (or however they came to life), how perfectly they sustain their lives without causing global warming or feeling the need to have sex with minors.

 Tiny dismembered body? 

And the reason that women might consider an abortion have very little to do with their own body shape. It could be because they were raped, because they are still minors themselves, because they are not capable of taking care of themselves yet, for instance because they are addicted to drugs. Or maybe because the birth of that child will cause the death of its mother.

Now what life is more important? The one of the sperm-egg (that does not look like a tiny dismembered body, but more like spunk) or the one of the ´mother´ ?

 I was responding to your assertion that Humans are superior, nothing else.  What you mention above, has nothing to do with superiority.  I would say it would be a natural instinct for a mother to save her child from a predator.  If you are trying to connect this to a woman who has just conceived then I would say it is a different situation because there ra e different views on when life starts.

Personally, I could not contemplate an abortion . However I realise that my emotion may change depending on the circumstances of the conception or health/pregnancy.  What we aspire to and what may actually happen may be quite different once the hypothesis becomes a reality.

Whether someone is for abortion or against it, they should be able to agree that it is a personal issue and not something that should be in the control of a government.  I don´t think it would be helpful to drive abortion underground.

Also, I don´t think one side should judge the other.

 It is very superficial of you to think that the only reason for a woman to have an abortion done is their weight or bodyshape. These days there are enough facilities for women to get the right sports programme to get back at their ´original´ weight.

Nobody says that you are not allowed to think the way you think. But by wanting the government to involve in issues like this, you impose your view on people who don´t agree with you. It should be a free choice for anyone. The teenage girl who accidentally gets pregnant should have the right to keep that child, just as much as the teenage girl who got raped should have the right to get cells removed, if she is too late to get a morning-after-pill.

Superior? Yes, no mere animal has been so creative to invent such effective methods to cause the destruction on the planet as humans. Humans have the ability to change the whole world, manipulate the univese, and they do.

Humans have choices, and it´s sad that so many really destructive ones have been made....then I wonder how the cats feel about cat gut being used to play music? Do you think the trees and fish enjoy our wonderful symphonies? Do you understand the dolphine song?...or for that matter the sparrow´s song? I would prefer to listen to a whale sing than any symphony.

In our short time on this earth, what a mess we have made.

Choice is one of the defining characteristics of being human. Given that, to take choice away from women is to dehumanize them....so what do you think of that, oh lover of humans?

 Yes I was. And I got lucky that my parents were in the position to raise a child, and that my mother didnt have any physical complications that could have made my birth her death.

On the other hand. Had it been so, I would have had no idea. Because at that time I wasnt ´superior´ yet: I had no idea I existed, nor did I have the ability to compose music.

 You are making assumptions about people´s reasons for terminating a pregnancy.

Add me too!!!

I agree with alameda too on this topic.

And for the others who happened to think that imposing religious teachings at public schools is not a bad thing or "a little prayer never hurt anyone", I bet you would support all teachings of religions at schools including sheria by taliban or wahabist in faith schools!!(What happened to the secularism?)

Apart from that I must admit i am in a little shock here about ´how conservative you are´ about this abortion issue..

The body is your body. you must be the only person to decide what to do with it..
How can you support your ´goverments imposing religion based theories and laws on people´s lives´ (such as pro-life etc) and at the same time you can oppose taliban imposing religious rules on people´s life?

And me!

I also agree with thehandsom when it comes to religious education. Although I think that a multiple-religious education wouldnt be a bad idea either. Each teenager could be taught the basic beliefs of the worlds major faiths, the basic religious practices and the backgrounds behind these etc.

 I don´t think it would be a good idea to drive abortion underground and that is what would happen.  It´s against the law to steal, but it goes on.

There would be a great many do-it-yourself abortions, with horrific consequences.

You are AWESOME!

...

 This is what happens in State schools, in England and Wales between the ages of 5 and 16 although 50% of the teaching is about Christianity.  It is taught as "This is what ´x´ believes. This is a festival celebrated by ´y´.  This is how ´z´ worships."  It is educatin rather than instruction.

 You obviously take it serious. But also so far the only reason you gave that women might have, has been weight issues. That does make you sound very superficial, at least when it comes to your opinion on women.

I thought about this subject a lot too. If I were to get pregnant from the one I love any time before we planned, I would nto have an abortion. I think that with a little bit of effort, I could work to finish my education (and save my own life), and make money to provide the life of the child to be born. But this is my own personal opinion, which I have considered, and made a decision upon. I wish for every woman to have that choice, and to it be the way she sees fit.

So what is your opinion on the morning after pill then?

 Well, in my country we don´t prohibit soft drugs, and as far as I´m aware, the illegal drug scene is not that big as it used to be and therefore less hard to track down.

But, the US is probably too big to keep it in control the way we do. This was more just a side note.

I agree that prohibitin abortion will lead to scenes we have often seen at the news: special ships in ´secret´ harbours that provide dangerous abortions for women. Then we will loose ´two´ lives, if we consider that cell a life.

it´s not about being "pro-abortion" is being "anti" a dictactor or anyone else telling you what is correct and right when it comes to your own body.

If they decide that under no circumstance are you able to have an abortion will they also gaurentee to pay for a child you cannot afford to raise, or better yet force a father to be a father 100%. Or be certain to remove a child born to a crack addicted mother that might have had an abortion but now is raising a child born addicted because DCFS case workers are at an all time low, and not always able to help children born into unbearable conditions. If they could fix all these problems first maybe then they could take away CHOICE, they have to give another one first.

 Drugs and alcohol are not the subjects of this thread sir, but you are free to start a new thread

 Yes. I based my idea on the education I have received in the first 3 years of highschool in the Netherlands. The lesson is not called ´religion´ or anything. It is called something that can be translated as ´View on life´. The latter 3 years of that education consisted of some more philosophical point of view, with introduction of persons as Freud, reading the little prince, and thinking about things as abortion and euthansia.

An education instead of instruction, that is what I tried to say!!

 Ummm....so you now admit it is a "potential life". You have actually gone fruther than I. I admit it´s a life, but to me it´s not a human life at the zygot stage....

 PSHE (Personal, Social and Health Education) and Citizenship are also on the curriculum now.  PSHE covers quite alot of moral/ethical issues.  In High school Religious Education also cover a lot of ethical and moral issues.

I understood what you were trying to say, I was supporting it.

 Yes I know I was just happy that you formulated a sentence I could not find

 Let´s extrapolate that a bit more....If a zygote is a baby, I wonder at what point will there be check-points to see if a fertilized egg is in a female of possible child bearing age?

 At what point will women be jailed to "make sure" the right decisions are being made? 

At what point will there be murder trials for women who miscarried? When will child abuse charges be made against women who don´t "eat right" or have the "right life style"

And, yes where are the programs to take care of the humans? Love the life that has no voice, no thoughts....and no possibility to challenge you....forget about them once they are here.

From lipsticks to mudslicks in US election

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article4727621.ece

more on same subject:

 +10000 !

Wow, apparently I missed alot when I went to work!   I think it is good to debate these issues.. not just in our own country but around the world.  The original subject was on a politicians views, and how she may or may not change things for the better or worse, but I think Roswitha is right here.. This is a woman who comes from a privaledged family. Not a poor one, or one that has had to work her way through life.. This is not saying that she has not had hard times, Im sure she has, we all do.  But this article shouts out the "agenda" that McCain had in seeking a woman in the first place.  Kudos!

Wow, I admire those "pro-life" activists. Personally, I wouldn´t take the responsibility for other people´s womb. If you want to devoid women of free choice over their own tummies, if you want to bring them down to the level of human incubators, it´s your choice. I think those willing to impose their points of view and systems of beliefs on others should be extra taxed - a national fund paying for unwanted yet not aborted children and giving insurance money for mothers made to keep unwanted preganancies shuld be established. It is easy to to shout "Zygote is a human being" - do more, pay those who you made to follow your way, pay to compensate the stress you put raped women through. Drug addicts will be delighted that they´ll get extra money for their dopes, you´ll be able to tell your neighbours that because of you another disabled child has to wait for death in pain. That´s so generous of you. Makes you better humans.

Religion at schools will teach kids being better? that´s something new - throughout history religions have caused more deaths than the plague! Give people a reason to differ and they´ll kill each other for it.

This is a long thread to read in a short time, so forgive me if I am repeating anyone else, but personally I think this woman is a timebomb!  I would not be voting republican with her standing beside Old McCain, and someone who will most probably end up as president if he wins.  Pro life she may be, and I believe the choice is a personal one, so what happened to her pro-life ideals when it comes to looking after her mongol son? I guess she has palmed him off on to someone else to look after.

 I´m shocked that you think a mother who has a "mongol"  which I haven´t heard this term in years.....A mother with a down syndrom baby can´t have a career.  So women can´t have a career who have kids?  Is it so awful to have daycare?  Do you find this palming it off on someone else?  Unbelievable!

As far as everyone´s comments here about abortion..your entitled to your views.  This doesn´t change my views one bit about pro-life, in fact it just reaffirms why I believe this way in the first place. 

Interesting that Hilliary also called out Obama on the fact he voted "present" which means "no" on seven bills introduced.   Two bills outlawed the late-term procedure that opponents call partial-birth abortion. Two bills required parental notification for minors seeking abortions. Three bills were for so-called "born alive" legislation, which require doctors to administer medical care to aborted fetuses that survive the abortion process in hopes that the fetuses can survive.  Just many of the hundreds of reasons why I don´t want him representing me.

 I´m not sure why you think Palin came from a "privileged" family.  Her father was a teacher and her mother was a secretary and she had to enter beauty pagents to earn money for college. 

She had her first child barely 8 months after eloping.  One has to wonder if her teenage daughter would have gotten pregnant if her mother had educated her on sex rather than hypocritically preaching abstinence.

And speaking of hypocrites....I am loving McCain´s outrage at Obama´s "lipstick on a pig" comment yesterday.  It is the EXACT term he used earlier in the campaign when discussing Hillary Clinton´s health care agenda.   So it wasn´t sexist when he said it but it is now when Obama uses it????    

 I agree.  It was a derogatory and sexist statement!

 Isn´t that exactly the point of what is being discussed here?  Everyone is entiltled to their views? 

And women are entitled to do what is right for THEM and not have it legislated/DICTATED to them what to do!!!!!!!!

You are so adamant about the government not stepping on your right to smoke if you choose to but don´t see the parallel here.  It is the same thing....government regulating your right to do what you want with your body. 

And if you say that it is not the same because smoking doesn´t involve a fetus.......lets talk about second hand smoke.

Not to mention her husband is a fisherman.  No one really cares about Obama´s "lipstick on a pig" and what his intent was no one really knows except for Obama.  I just think it´s very sad that they keep trying to use her 17 year old pregnant daughter as a target and grasping for straws.  Not to mention Bidens speech yesterday, admitting Hillary would have been a better choice than him.   What confidence he is showing his party.  Now I´m thinking that he will suddenly have a medical condition so that Hillary could step in.   Also not to mention that a new survey shows that only 29% of Obama´s supporterss support the U.S. Constitution..now if that doesn´t send a message. 

For the few years that Obama has been  "community organizer"...no this doesn´t refer to him being black which is now what his campaign is claiming..he has  18 PAGES of fund raising requests.  Give me your money, so I can give it to someone else...18 PAGES

This has nothing to do with the goverment but MY moral belief that abortion is WRONG..So now you want to compare smoking with human life? 

 I´m not comparing smoking to human life I am comparing anti-smoking legislation to anti-abortion legislation.   But if you want to go there..........doesn´t smoking take a much larger toll on human life than abortion?

 Then why are all the Republicans so outraged and crying for Obama to apologize to Palin? 

 I don´t know, I think it´s quite idiotic myself  The Republicans are using sexism and the Democrats are using the race card.  I just wish they would discuss important topics at this point.

 My opinion is "unbelieveable" that a women should bring us her own children! Shock horror!!!!

 So in other words, a woman can´t have a career if she has children.  Yes that is shock and horror!

 Actually it is possible to have children, bring them up yourself, and have a career!  I somehow managed it  I did not miss out on any crucial parts of my children growing up nor have I missed out on the career ladder either - shock horror!

As long as you, Palin and others have that believe as a private believe, I think it is very much ok. But when, by law, women are forbidden to choose what THEY want because your/her/other persons private believes are suddenly compulsary for all, is it indeed WRONG!

 So please tell us how you managed this?  Did you work nights while your child slept?

 The issue is that McCain has publicly and repeatly said that if elected he would seek to have Roe V Wade overturned. (you can see that in this 02/07 and this 09/08 article) That would mean the government would have legal control over women´s bodies. That would eliminate a woman´s ability to have a choice.

If people like teaschip and elisabeth feel strongly about bringing a fetus to term in their own bodies, that´s fine with me. It´s when the right to choice is removed I have a very serious problem.

 The issue, in my eyes is not about the legal right for a woman to choose.  The issue is the legal right for a fetus to exist.  If you don´t agree that life begins at conception then, we will never see eye to eye on this issue.      

 Sorry Elisabeth, a woman is carrying that fetus in her body, not otherwise. I´m not pro-abortion, I´m pro choice. But let´s agree to disagree...

 Of course, Trudy, I will agree to disagree with you.  I will respectfully do so.  However, I don´t like the insinuation that I am not a thinking woman or that I am thin brained because I don´t feel the same.  (I do realize that it was not you who said this...but it makes me angry!!  )

Nope I never said or thought that. Though I cannot understand your ideas (having a baby under all circomstances) I will respect that choice. I only hope that if (please let it never happen!) I´m in the position I have to choose you will respect my choice whatever that may be as well.

 I would rather vote for a President who believes in pro-life than for a President who believes in partial-birth abortion or "born alive" where the abortion has gone wrong and the "baby" IS born and requires medical attention but is denied.  I cannot fathom nor will EVER understand women especially those who have children that could be for abortion.  And whether you believe that fetus isn´t a child at conception is just plain denial in my book. 

Elisabeth, I did explain why I used the words "thin brain" in response to TrainStation´s post. Why do you refuse to accept my explanation and you are carrying on a conversation based on false assumptions?

Yes... I think that the worst evil of humanity is when people have this missionary attitude of imposing their own beliefs on everybody else! If someone thinks she/he will go to heaven by doing something or not doing something, go ahead and live by your beliefs, but get off of other people´s backs. It´s their own problem what they do in their lives and what consequences they will have. Live and let live!

George Calin on Pro-Lifers in America (it´s a bit harsh, so if you´re sensitive, don´t open this link)

I really really can understand the moral passion that pro-life people feel. I respect their choice, but just wish they could understand some things.

When I was assisting for special education teachers I remember a family clearly. This young girl had been raped by her father for most of her life. I was told (do not know ALL the specifics) that this girl had repeated abortions and her parents had even performed one in the home. The girl also gave birth to one of the babies, and it was removed from the home, this child now has extreme phsyical and mental handicaps. The child does not open her eyes and has deformities of the face, mouth, and most of her joints. Do you think she is feeling a rich quality of life?

There is nothing wrong with being pro-life, but there is nothing wrong with being pro-choice either.

I feel sorry for you if you believe this is the worst evil of humanity. If people didn´t stand up for what they believe in, where would we be today.  Let everyone do what they want etc..mentality.  I can think of worse!  I believe Elisabeth & myself have been very constructive as to why we don´t believe in abortion.  However, I feel that some of the comments here..starting with Alamada "I can´t fathom how any thinking women " to libras "mongol son" and your "thin brain comment" have been a little out of hand.  Did I call anyone murders here...Should I post some graphic pictures on youtube...  Let me say this again, I simply am pro-life and prefer a president who is.

 The term "partial birth abortion" is a term spawned to incite raw emotion! There is no partial birth abortion other than in some people´s minds. There is no medical term called "partial birth abortion".  The same can be said for the "Born Alive" controversy. As for Obama´s position of those issues, read his website and get it straight. They are terms purposfuly vague in order to skirt the laws.

Here is the story of a woman who chose to terminate her pregnacy that your people would have denied. It is a very emotional and personal decision and one that the government needs to stay out of.

When people take positions that would enslave others, I protest and will not sit passivly by. I am old enough to remember before Roe V Wade. I knew many women who risked their lives terminating pregnacy. You have no idea of just how it was, and I doubt if you have much of an idea of how, given today´s technology, it could be.

Even the Wahabbis have more liberal ideas than this.  .....and I don´t think any woman takes this lightly. It is a decision that is very emotional and personal.

 Teaschip, as I have said over and over and over....If you don´t believe in abortion....don´t have one! However when you impose your views on millions of other women, I seriously object!

I also have a right to seriously object what happens in our society, whether it affects me personally or not!  As for partial- birth abortion just because the terminology is not recognized by the medical society, doesn´t make it very real.  Just ask your candidate. 

I just received this from my American friends who live in Europe, and want to share this with you:

An Apostle of Alaska

 

 NEWSWEEK

I would like to hear a reaction upon some of the reasons for an abortion that have been mentioned from the pro-lifers. The girl who has given birth to her fathers child, over and over again. The crack hooker. The couple who would love to raise a child, but who know that the mother will die giving birth. 

I understand reasons to be against abortion.

I am also wondering, the decision to be pro-life, has it got any religious grounds too?

And as a last, which just came to my mind: what is your idea on euthanasy? (I´m sorry, I don´t exactly know if that is the english word. I mean when a terminal ill patient decides he/she wants to die).

(and just for the record: I´m genuinely interested )

 I had children young, looked after them at home from birth to school age, started working part time to fit in with school times, began studying, got qualifications, began working more hours as they got older, and worked full time when the youngest one was about 13.  Had time off work in the school holidays, mother-in-law had them some of the holidays. 

By doing this, I saw every single one of my childrens teeth grow, I heard their first words, I saw them sit for the first time, crawl and I saw them take their first steps, I watched them learn to feed themselves, and laughed when they made a mess.  I listened to them reading their first words, and helped them with their first maths.  I built lego toys with them, helped them with model aeroplanes when they became frustrated, I taught them about nature and respect for nature.  I wiped their tears, I kissed them and cuddled them when they were upset.  I taught them to ride a bike, to fish and I taught them to swim, I taught them to drive a car, I taught them how to stand on their own two feet.

By the time I was 35 (my children just about off my hands) I had a reasonable job and good prospects which I have built on since to become a senior manager and since moved on to pastures new into another senior position and now rub shoulders with politicians. 

Is that enough or do you want more?

If anyone is interested this site gives statistics for the number of Irish women seeking an abortion on the UK mainland.   http://www.ifpa.ie/abortion/index.html

If anti abortion legislation was ever passed in the US I presume there would be nothing to stop the "haves" from going over the border, into Canada for a termination.  (I don´t know if it´s legal in Mexico) .    Where would the "have nots" go?  Would there be DIY abortions? What would be the consequences?

I am pro choice, but I do think there should be strict limits on deadlines (unless for extreme medical reasons).  Premature births at 22-23 weeks are having successful outcomes nowadays. 

A recent news item here in the UK about a mother killing her 4 year old daughter because she had mild cerebral palsy  http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/mother-drowned-girl-four-because-she-was-disabled-923660.html .

I´m not saying I think cerebral palsy is a reason to have an abortion.  Someone made to have a child against their will could be tipped over the edge and who knows what mental state they may be left in. Of course some may look back and be thankful that they changed their mind about having an abortion and some will be left bitter, resentful or mentally unstable.

I´ve worked with many disabled children over the years, in a mainstream school, and worked closely with their parents.  Children with Down´s Syndrome, Autism, Cerebral Palsy, Epilepsy, Hemiplegia, Dyspraxia, verbal Dyspraxia and Muscular Dystrophy to name some.  I can say without exception the children enrich school life and the lives of others, as well as their own.  It is wonderful to see young children keen to learn sign language in order to be able to communicate with the children that need it.

I´m shattered and I don´t think I´ve made myself very clear.  Basically, I´m pro choice but I can understand why someone would not want to have an abortion and I don´t think I could.  However, I´ve never been in the position where I had to contemplate it, so I don´t know what I would do if the chips were down.

I do worry what the consequences of a pro life law would be, as I said at the beginning.

It is definitely legal in Mexico as they have forced abortions for women working in the maquiladoras in Mexico, otherwise they lose their jobs.  Maquiladoras are foreign owned factories, mostly large corporations (usually American), where people work poor conditions and low pay.  If the women are found to become pregnant then they are forced to have abortions.  But then that is another story.................

 So we are perfectly clear here...you are telling me and everyone who reads this that you support the government´s intrusion into the body of women? You would force any woman who has a fertilized egg to bring that zygote to term? You support females who are rape or incest victims being forced to bring their pregnacys to term?

If you are so ardent about life, what about the millions of poor children in Africa, India, Haiti or many places on the planet? What are you and your candidates doing for them? How about the poor citizens of the US who can´t afford health care? You know, they can die without proper medical care?

If you are so anti-abortion, why do you shop at Walmart, who imports products from China? (who performs forced abortions)

WOW, you already had my respect and admiration, but now it´s increased even more!

Dear Teaschip, you are right that you have the right to object what happens in your country. You also have the right to object the decision of a woman to have an abortion (though I hope you will just respect a friend or family member when they decide to have one, as others respect your opinion). But you have NO right to forbid other women to take their own decisions as they don´t have the right to tell you what to do or believe.

That´s what it is all about - respect. You may dislike somebody´s decision to have an abortion yet you should respect their right to make such decision. For it is YOUR system of beliefs that leads you to consider zygote a human being. Por-choice people do not force anybody to have an abortion, "pro-life" impose their points of view on everyone. That´s far from fair.

If a person wants to have an abortion it is unlikely that a law will stop her. I come from a country where abortion is illegal - the effect is thousands of abortions conducted in private surgeries. Doctors that loudly pronounce abortion immoral within office hours, do it during their private practice.

I believe nobody has the right to tell me what to do with my body, nobody can force me to be a human incubator. Just like nobody can punish a raped woman to suffer more or sentence a mother of a disabled child to a lifetime of pain. It should be an individual decision of the person directly affected by pregnancy, not some believers who´ll do nothing to help.

I agree with most of what you say DD (I posted similar views and gave a link to statistics for Ireland) but I don´t agree that having a disabled child will automatically lead to "a life time of pain".  "Disability" is a very general term and I think most of the competitors in the paralympics (many of whom were born with their condition/s) would not agree that their life has been full of pain for either themselves, their parents or their siblings.  In fact some "disabled" people do not like being referred to as such.

At a Special Needs conference I attended, one of the seminars was led by a man in a wheel chair and he was adamant he was not disabled.  The ´pain´ he seemed to be going through was dealing some other people´s perception of him because he was in a wheelchair.

In the staffroom of my school there is a copy of the order of service for the funeral of the 3 year old son of an ex colleague.  It´s been there for 5 years but nobody wishes to take it down because it is full of testimony to the love of everyone who knew him and the richness he brought to their lives.  The service consisted of all the little boy´s favourite music, nursery rhymes and stories and his father had written the most poignant and, in places, humorous poem about his son´s life.  The little boy was born healthy but he contracted an illness when he was a few months old and this led to his having complex needs and needing a great deal of care.  His parents and family gave him this lovingly. I´m not saying there was never any heartache (pain) but in the main, there was much to celebrate about the life of this little boy.

As I´ve said before I´m pro choice.  I think there are extremes on both sides of the pro choice, pro life debate.  Pro lifers who will never contemplate abortion under any circumstances and want to outlaw it and pro choicers (is there such a word ) who might take an extreme view and regard any facet of their unborn child that they don´t like as a reason to abort (designer babies).  I don´t think either of these extremes is attractive.

btw, I´m sure DD didn´t mean anything extreme when she used the phrase she did, sometimes what we say doesn´t always come out as we intend. So, please don´t see this as a dig, I am not misinterpreting your intention, I just wanted to put some ideas forward because there are some who are all for designer babies.  I would hate that to become a way of life. I am also sure there are cases where parents do experience a great deal of heartache constantly and children do experience, literally, a lifetime of pain.  However, I´m not confident they would like the idea of abortion.  There are those that would say the love they receive/feel more than makes up for any heartache or pain they may endure.

So, after all that, pro choice is really the only option as far as I´m concerned, as it is not a matter where a government should be allowed to dictate. 

Well, PT, I actually intended every single word I wrote - because I was writitng from my perspective. Much as I admire people who decide to give birth to and raise disabled children, I would undergo an abortion if I learnt my child would be disabled. And I don´t think Teas or Liz have the right to force me to keep a child that I would never be able to love or bring up, and they´d better not suggest giving it away for adoption - chances are scarce. Also, life in an institution without prospects of ever going out is not a good choice either.

 Well done LL.  I too juggled a career and motherhood with great success and people forget that the relationship between grandparents and grandchildren is also very important indeed.  As a grandmother, I understand this even more now. 

However, I think that your original assertion should have been accepted without requiring ´proof´.

I´ve had many conversations with friends about this and it seems that one´s own upbringing can also affect the way you view this issue.  One friend had an unhappy childhood due to a stay at home mother, who didn´t have the patience to give her child a great deal of quality time, even though she was with her all day!  I suppose this could result in either that child ensuring she became a very attentive and creative stay at home mother or juggling work and motherhood creatively to ensure everyone is stimulated and time together is quality.

Needless to say, childcare is a big issue and great care has to be taken to ensure this is of high quality.  Nursery placement here is becoming quite a big priority here in the UK and the government is giving it a big push.  However, not every child thrives in this environment and a home environment with a qualified child carer is a better option.  Unfortunately government insistance on documenting a child´s every step of development is becoming very unattractive to many carers.  Many believe that photos and discussion after every session with parents is sufficient.  As schools are inspected, so are in the home child carers.  This is as it should be, but I´m not sure production of mountains of paperwork for one child is the sign of a good carer.  A discussion with the parents would be far more insightful.  The first thing inspectors of schools do is distribute questionnaires to all parents and the school is not allowed to open the replies.  I´m sure this must be done for home inspections, but I would say a discussion with parents would also give valuable feedback.

Not everyone has the luxury of staying at home with their child either, eg. single parents.  Some couples decide that they will each have a part time job, so that they can share childcare yet have some life in the outside world as an individual. 

There isn´t only one solution to successful parenting or providing a happy life experience for one´s children.  Every situation is different and people should not be blinkered by their own experience/view.

 But what is your perception of disability? Not all children born with a disability are destined for a life in an institution without ever seeing the light of day. 

Do/Did these people live an institutionalised life?

David Blunkett  (British Politician - Blind since birth)

(http://www.disabled-world.com)

Stevie Wonder became blind during his infancy so was not blind from birth, but he hasn´t led an institutionalised life and has contributed much to the world of music.

Let me be clear, I am with you regarding pro choice.  I am not with you regarding your assertion that "disability" means a life of institutionalisation and/or pain .  I am not saying that people should never abort even if they discover a disability.  I had thought I had misunderstood your initial comment about disablity and what it means.  It seemed such a generalisation and I wondered where you drew the line regarding the term "disability".  I´m still not really clear as  your post above still makes me wonder how you define disability.  People can have a physical disability, yet have the most fantastic intellect/cognitive ability, on the other hand people can have perfect physical ability but are locked in the mind of a two year old.  Some lead a vegetative existence.  There are just too many variants to quote.  Nowadays what would have been deemed a disability 50 or even 30 years ago is no longer seen that way.  With the progression of science, many barriers to quality of life can be overcome even if the condition cannot be cured. 

Interestingly, many people institutionalised in "Mental Hospitals" here 50 or more years ago were young women who had become pregnant, people suffering from epilepsy (Julius Caesar and Lenin both had this condition) and people with basic learning difficulties. 

My friend´s husband is dyslexic but he still obtained a first class honours degree.  Dyslexia can be a barrier to learning (but it is not an insurmountable barrier) but is it a disability in your eyes, that would warrant abortion?  If a test could be invented that detected dyslexia or verbal dyspraxia, I wonder how prospective parents would view that?

I think having a view on something and actually being faced with the prospect can be quite different.  I´m sure many people don´t waiver from their belief , but I´m sure there are also those that have a complete turnaround when faced with the reality of having to make a choice.  I also don´t believe adoption of ´disabled´ children is ´scarce´.

I was very careful not to mention having children adopted at birth, because I don´t believe a mother should have to go through such an experience if they don´t wish to.

I will say again DD whatever decision both parents arrive at, after reading all the information available to them etc., it is there choice. 

I´m still genuinely interested

 I guess euthanasia is a little similar,emotionally, to the abortion debate, except the choice often lies with the person who will die.  There have actually been several high profile cases in the UK and America, some individuals fighting for the right to die and some fighting for the right to live.  There was a case in the US (I can´t remember the name of the lady involved) where familiy and friends contested the Health professionals´ that a particular patient had no quality of life and was, to all intents an purposes, dead (I stand to be corrected on my phrasing here as I am trying to recall the specifics).  The family and friends lost their battle and the lady lost her life.  It seemed a very difficult case.  There have also been cases of people in a coma for months, even years before regaining consciousness.

Some have fears that a law pro euthanasia might lead to unscrupulous decisions merely on the grounds of cost or potential organ donation.

Another mine field DK !!

As for disability, I wasn´t by any means implying that disabled people should have been aborted before birth, sorry if you understood it like that. I was speaking about mine and mine only ability to raise a child with any kind of disability that would prevent him/her from living an independent life in a later stage of life. Thus dyslexia is hardly a disability (not to mention it can´t be diagnosed in uterus), but Down´s Syndrome is. I know a few disabled people and I find them nice people but I wouldn´t want to carry the burden of devoting my life to raising one. I may be selfish but all kinds of mental disabilities would be reasons to terminate pregnancy for me. The same with malfomed foetus and I´m not speaking here about sixth toe but more serious deformations that would require me to devote more time to raise such a child than a healthy one.

I´m also pro-euthanasia. There´s nothing more humiliating than impossibility to decide about your own life. If you´re mentally healthy and decide you don´t want to live anymore and if there is a person who is willing to help you end your life no court should have the power to tell you you can´t die.

 Well then you are fortunate that you could make this decision financially, not everyone can.  Believe me I taught my son the exact same things and were there for everyone of his highs and lows.   You can still have a career and be a mother.

Quoting peacetrain

 But what is your perception of disability? Not all children born with a disability are destined for a life in an institution without ever seeing the light of day. 

 

Do/Did these people live an institutionalised life?

 

 

David Blunkett  (British Politician - Blind since birth)

 

Jean Driscoll - Jean was born with spina bifida, a birth defect that resulted in the improper development of her spine. She is a world-renowned athlete who is also making an impact as a professional speaker. Her motivational and powerful presentations have been lauded by CEO´s of corporate and non-profit enterprises, the U.S. government, and all levels of the education system. The Boston Marathon added a wheelchair division for women in 1977. The record for most repeated championships stands at 8, held by Jean Driscoll in the Women´s Wheelchair division.

 

Robert Hensel - Being an international poet and writer, Robert has never let spina bifida come in the way of his artistic mind. "There were many times that my schoolmates would laugh at me and call me names simply because of their lack of understanding of why I was a little different". He was awarded the title of one of the best poets of the 20th century with over 900 publications worldwide and detains the world record at Guiness and Ripley´s for the longest non stop wheelie in a weelchair.

 

(http://www.disabled-world.com)

 

Stevie Wonder became blind during his infancy so was not blind from birth, but he hasn´t led an institutionalised life and has contributed much to the world of music.

 

Let me be clear, I am with you regarding pro choice.  I am not with you regarding your assertion that "disability" means a life of institutionalisation and/or pain .  I am not saying that people should never abort even if they discover a disability.  I had thought I had misunderstood your initial comment about disablity and what it means.  It seemed such a generalisation and I wondered where you drew the line regarding the term "disability".  I´m still not really clear as  your post above still makes me wonder how you define disability.  People can have a physical disability, yet have the most fantastic intellect/cognitive ability, on the other hand people can have perfect physical ability but are locked in the mind of a two year old.  Some lead a vegetative existence.  There are just too many variants to quote.  Nowadays what would have been deemed a disability 50 or even 30 years ago is no longer seen that way.  With the progression of science, many barriers to quality of life can be overcome even if the condition cannot be cured. 

 

Interestingly, many people institutionalised in "Mental Hospitals" here 50 or more years ago were young women who had become pregnant, people suffering from epilepsy (Julius Caesar and Lenin both had this condition) and people with basic learning difficulties. 

 

My friend´s husband is dyslexic but he still obtained a first class honours degree.  Dyslexia can be a barrier to learning (but it is not an insurmountable barrier) but is it a disability in your eyes, that would warrant abortion?  If a test could be invented that detected dyslexia or verbal dyspraxia, I wonder how prospective parents would view that?

 

I think having a view on something and actually being faced with the prospect can be quite different.  I´m sure many people don´t waiver from their belief , but I´m sure there are also those that have a complete turnaround when faced with the reality of having to make a choice.  I also don´t believe adoption of ´disabled´ children is ´scarce´.

 

I was very careful not to mention having children adopted at birth, because I don´t believe a mother should have to go through such an experience if they don´t wish to.

 

I will say again DD whatever decision both parents arrive at, after reading all the information available to them etc., it is there choice. 

Very nice article you shared peacetrain, I really enjoyed it.  I believe it takes a certain kind of person to be able to care and raise for a disabled child.  But I don´t believe aborting it is the answer.  We have other options like adoption.  Believe it or not families do adopt handicapp children.  I have volunteered my summers to work with kids of all disabilities and most people would be shocked to learn these children are usually the happiest kids in this world.

What don´t you understand, I thought I made myself perfectly clear...  How did we get onto the subject of the poor in Africa and India?  Walmart?  You obviously haven´t read my posts here...I hate Walmart. 

Once again I believe if you are raped or just don´t want a baby because it´s inconvienent for you, then give it up for adoption.  I believe everyone deserves a chance in life.....Why is that so hard to comprehend?  You don´t have to agree..

 This is what I guessed about your concept of disability, but didn´t want to assume.That´s why I asked you again.  Of course your personal choice should not be in dispute and I never intended you to think I thought you were selfish. 

I know dyslexia can´t be diagnosed in the uterus and it´s the same with many other conditions.  Even Down´s Syndrome is not detected every  time. 

AS I said, I wasn´t discussing the abortion issue, but the perception of "disability" and some people view dyslexia as a barrier to learning and thus a disability. 

Anyway you clarified your perception.

Thanks

You did NOT answer my question. I asked, and will repeat it here in a simple form. Do you believe the government should have the right to intrude on a woman´s choice? Are you for a candidate that would take that choice away?

 Isn´t it great that she had the CHOICE to stay home when her children were young?  To make the decision that was right for her?

 Teas you are saying we don´t have to agree with you but you want legislation that forces women to have a child when it is not right for them....no matter WHAT the situation is.   You want forced agreement! 

Not everyone feels the same as you!!  Why should we have to live with the consequences of the beliefs of people who think like you when it is not what we believe?  

It is and should always be a personal choice for the woman dealing with the situation!!

Alameda, when will you stop talking DOWN to people?  No one here needs you to speak simplisticly.  Teas disagrees with you and your beliefs, it does NOT mean she is stupid and can´t understand...maybe she just didn´t think she needed to answer you.

You can´t force someone to answer your questions....you of all people should know that.

 I agree.

And seriously,  may I add something to the melting pot?

What about the father´s rights?  Some women spend a great deal of time trying to get equality with men; ensuring men play an equal role in household and family life.  Does this extend to decision making when termination is being considered?  Is there a difference between the potential father being half of a one night stand and being half of a very loving and committed couple?

These kinds of considerations are so difficult and I know every situation is different, as I´ve mentioned elsewhere.

I wondered what men thought about the issue too.

 I am trying to get her to actually admit if she is in favor of legislation that would force a female to bear a unwanted pregnacy to term.

She has used weasle terminology, like......."I believe everyone deserves a chance in life...." to avoid admiting if her agenda actually is to inflict on millions of females...(note I do not say women because there have been children as young as 6 who have conceived.) forced child bearing.  Saying you believe....is more of an abstract term....sort of like "I believe for every drop of rain that falls a flower grows"...or I believe I can fly"...so just what does she mean by her "I believe"?

If she is raped and inpregnated and wants to keep it, even if it has a condition that is unviable, that´s her choice. I do not feel that choice should be forced on everyone else. In fact, I find it horrifying to seriously consider that prospect. The implications are huge!

To admit? She not confessing, you are not her priest! She is not in court, you are not her judge.

Try a different tactic, called: asking polite (and I don´t think words like ´weasle´ are polite!)

 Ok, how about clarify her position?

As for "weasle", it is an relatively new word for when one trys to be nonspecific....they are called "weasle words" and are used to evade a direct statement.

Given the gravity of the situation, I hardly think I am being impolite when the status of millions of females is at stake.

 See once again you are jumping to conclusions!  You are making the assumption that I was well off!  Actually no we were not.  But why should I have to account to you? 

I have had enough of your preaching for one day or even one year.

One last time!  I have been a mother who brought up her children and I have a career and I managed that without resorting to childcare!

And in all of this, the child placed in a child care situation, what is his or her choice in this may I ask?  Do they say at 6 months old "I would prefer to be brought up by a stranger or I would really like my mother to be with me"?

And why is it so wrong that a mother should want to bring up her own children?  Children go to school at 4/5 years old, so it is not the end of the world a little time for them is it??????

 If Teaschip does not want to answer you, or anyone else, who are you to demand that? God?

New word or not, I think giving the characteristics we think of a weasle, it is very impolite to use that word for a human. Apparently you don´t respect all human beings.

 Get real will you? Are you just trying to pick a fight or what? I did not demand she answer...and she said she answered the question which she did not. At least I want her to think about the implications herself. It is possible she has not thought about that.

And fruther more when millions of women´s lives are at stake, I´m not worried about being polite!

A blog about Sarah Palin (not for fans):

A Few Thoughts on Sarah Palin´s Noble Choices and Aspirations.

Actually Trudy,if anyone starting/join in a debat,or conversation and state opinions with other,he/she should answer to that debat.

And others also should demand an answer...its what people do in any conversation,you cant just not answer and insist that you are right,and people accept that out of the blue!

Another site with ´nice´ Palin info....

http://www.grizzlybay.org/SarahPalinInfoPage.htm

 Nope. You can ask for an answer, never demand it. Free choice remember?

 Ok,i agree ask not demand,STİLL answering that question is the base of the whole debat.

 Trudy, this is really getting silly....and I do realize you do not like me....but for the record....again....I did not demand she answer.

It could be that seeing as English is not your native language...and I speak US English, there are semantic misunderstandings.

I asked her to admit. That is not a demand....and I stated that I wanted....also...that is not a demand.

thought as she is hot topic of the day ........you might be interested in this your very own palin doll

http://video.msn.com/video.aspx?mkt=en-GB&vid=50a0468a-0d92-465a-8589-71c40a142575&form=oddnews

 Thank you .  I agree with everything you say but, though I personally don´t think I could contemplate an abortion, I don´t think legislating against it is the answer because life is not that simple and choice is important.  I´m thinking of the bigger picture, today control people´s choices with regard to abortion . . . and tomorrow?  How will governments control our lives further?  It would be the slippery slope.

I think I´ve already mentioned that adoption of children with a disability happens more frequently than people realise.  Some people actively adopt a disabled child rather than a child without.  Many people foster first then realise they want the child in their lives permanently.  Some people actually realise that they do have those special qualities to adopt a child with Special Needs and devote their lives to them.  A good family/friend network doesn´t always have to mean being a slave to care either.  There are also respite schemes which are become available much more nowadays.  Also, many parents find that they get as much as they give.

I´ve co-ordinated the provision of special educational needs in my school for 9 years.  It´s a mainstream school that has a good reputation for inclusive education and parents choose our school deliberately because of its reputation.  We have excellent staff, dedicated to the needs of the children who require extra support and parents are so very supportive too.  I have two friends with Down´s Syndrome children.  Both children are progressing well in our school and learning to read etc. They are only 5. 

One thing I would say is the fact that my job has given me a great insight into the life of the family with a child with special educational/physical needs and this has made me think that many of these children have a great deal to contribute to society.

Regarding the zygote issue, I would just like to steer in a slightly different direction for a moment.  Detection of pregnancy is becoming much more refined nowadays and women can find out they are pregnant at a very early stage.  The minute they know this (those that want it) they think of a child in their tummy, whatever form it has.  What I want to say is, if a woman miscarries at the zygote stage should she ensure she does not feel the anguish of having lost a child?   I don´t think the anguish of losing a much wanted unborn baby can be quanitfied according to the gestation period at the point of miscarriage.  I guess what is the issue here is the mother´s feelings more than that of the fetus but I still think it´s a point to think about.

It´s not about my English, at least not this time, it´s about your choice of words and more: the underlying tone! And if something is getting silly, it is you who don´t understand that many, many people are telling you the same about that tone as I do.

 While you carry on about what you feel is my "tone", I´m trying to discuss a important issue. It could be that you just don´t feel it is relevant to you.

The current "pro-life" agenda could enslave millions of females. As the US population is around 300 million, half of those being female, this effects 150 million females today, and who knows how many tomorrow? No exception for rape victims, no exception for women whose life would be endangered, no exception for victims of incest, no exception for unviability of the fetus....

Claiming human life begins at inception....and the criminalization of those terminating that? Outlawing methods of birth control that they feel interrupt things? As I said earlier in this thread, what is next, check stops to check on the fertility status of females?

Did you know there is a new federal guidline that asks all females capable of conceiving a baby to treat themselves, and be treated by the healthcare system- as pre-pregnant, regardless of weather they plan to get pregnant anytime soon....

What then, jail time for not properly taking care of yourself in your pre-pregnant state?

 Why does she need to admit anything to you?  She has made herself incredibly clear what her views are.  As Trudy said, it is her right to respond or not.  No matter how many times or ways you say it, she does not have to answer you.  And since you are so disprespectful in your methods of getting her to "admit" it, who can blame her? 

Yes, you want to continue the debate but maybe she feels she has debated the subject enough. 

Move on.

Disgusting:

Palin´s town billed rape victims to get evidence

By MARY PEMBERTON – 20 hours ago

ANCHORAGE, Alaska (AP) — When Sarah Palin was mayor of Wasilla, the city billed sexual assault victims and their insurance companies for the cost of rape kits and forensic examinations.

Palin had been in office for four years when the practice of charging rape victims got the attention of state lawmakers in 2000, who passed a bill to stop the practice.

Former Democratic Rep. Eric Croft, who sponsored that bill, said he was disappointed that simply asking the Wasilla police department to stop didn´t work. Croft said he doubts she was unaware of the practice.

Maria Comella, a McCain-Palin campaign spokeswoman, said Palin "does not believe, nor has she ever believed, that rape victims should have to pay for an evidence-gathering test." To suggest otherwise, she said, is a "misrepresentation of her commitment to supporting victims and bringing violent criminals to justice."

As governor, Palin has worked in a variety of ways to tackle the problem of sexual assault and rape, including making domestic violence a priority of her administration, Comella said. Alaska routinely has the nation´s highest rate of sexual assault.

Lawmakers became involved in 2000 when reports began coming in that police departments were charging sexual assault victims for the kits and the forensic exams, which cost from $300 to $1,200 at the time. The kit, a package of sample containers, swabs and other medical supplies, is used to collect evidence from women after they are attacked.

Then-Gov. Tony Knowles said Thursday that Wasilla was unique in the state in charging rape victims for the cost of doing the law enforcement necessary for solving the crime.

The bill passed the Legislature over the objections of Wasilla police chief Charlie Fannon, who said it would require the city to come up with more money to cover the costs of buying the rape kits and doing the exams.

I am cracking up! A Palin Doll for the Nation and her first grand child. Ha, ha.

Let´s go back to original comment you made about her "mongol son" and if she was going to palm him off to someone else.  You alluded to her not being able to have a career and being a mother at the same time.  So I questioned you on this and you explained yourself.  Just because I didn´t applaud you on being a stay at home mom and not missing your child growing up.  I simply stated that I also worked and raised a child and found balance.  I don´t think I deserved a crappy response like you dished out, especially being a mod. 

I don´t think Teas thinks you are so wrong to do what you´ve done LL.  I don´t think that´s her issue with you.

It is very admirable that you managed to carve a career without resorting to childcare.  However, everyone´s circumstances are different , and I´m not assuming you were lucky enough to be well off either. 

I too managed to have a career and bring up a child.  I had no choice, I had to work, but I was lucky that my parents were my daughter´s carers, so it was just like being at home. 

When I left school I didn´t go to university, I studied finance whilst working for a bank and did well.  But, when my daughter was 3 I went to university for 4 years and this actually gave me more time with my daughter.  I downsized so that I could pay my way at University and I can say that I never resorted to the state for support at all. 

There are some single parents who will take state benefits and stay home with their children and others who will not and go to work and then have to find child care.  Unfortunately, whichever path they take they will be criticised for it for one reason or another.  And before anyone says it, I don´t think it´s justified to say "well they shouldn´t have had children".  Single parents aren´t always single women becoming pregnant, some have been married for years before being divorced or widowed.

There are no hard and fast rules on bringing up a child and what works for one doesn´t work for another.  Not all stay at home mums are fun seeking and energetic and they can make life miserable for their children.  Some children are naturally gregarious and can´t wait to be let loose .  I think the main thing is to try not to be judgemental about people´s choices regarding the raising of their children. (In normal circumstances that is).

Sarah Palin has a great deal to answer for, looking at this thread .

More  revealing news about S. Palin from the Huffington Post:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/politics/

Glamor ranks high in the American popular culture - higher than
educational achievement, and higher than a personal history of
experience with the complications of national issues. Only here, in
glamor-worshiping USA, could one go from hockey mom/PTA to the White House.

The prospect of this amateur calling the shots in the White House is
just terrifying.

Once Elected, Palin Hired Friends and Lashed Foes

 http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/14/us/politics/14palin.html?_r=1&hp=&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1221343324-tGxa66AkDRYq1tsNYpjoIw&pagewanted=all&oref=slogin

Very Bizarre ´Holy Laughter Annointing´ Theology at Sarah Palin´s Juneau Church

http://www.alternet.org/election08/98703/very_bizarre_%27holy_laughter_annointing%27_theology_at_sarah_palin%27s_juneau_church/

Napoleon in knock-off bunny boots

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/14/opinion/14dowd.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

Palin resembles a female version of Bush, brought back from the grave to win the election.

The culture war: It´s back!

Democrats may have thought that the disastrous Bush years killed the GOP´s favorite tactic. The Palin effect shows they were wrong.

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2008/09/15/palin_interview/

Sorry Ros but I just have to ask…..when you copy and paste these things do you really think about what it is you are posting?

I don´t really understand why are you copying the comments of some random person who posted a response to an article in the Christian Science Monitor (http://features.csmonitor.com/politics/2008/09/12/palin-sketches-out-her-foreign-policy-views/), right down to the spelling errors. And then hunting down a photo-shopped picture to support this person‘s contention that the US worships glamour.

Is it YOUR belief that is the only way a woman could make it to this level in America?

GG,  I thought that fellow´s comment was right to the point about Palin - and Palin only. Certainly neither Hillary Clinton nor Belva Lockwood sought presidental candidacies based on glamour.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/could-the-real-sarah-palin-stand-up-933051.html

Prime target for jokers!

This is what you get when you pick a hockey Mom:

From the Huffington Post, POLITICS ALERTS

Carly Fiorina, a key surrogate to John McCain, admitted on Tuesday, that Sarah Palin does not have the experience needed to run a major company like the one that she, Fiorina, formerly headed.

"Do you think [Sarah Palin] has the experience to run a major company, like Hewlett Packard?" asked the host.

"No, I don´t," responded Fiorina. "But you know what? That´s not what she´s running for."

SEPT. 16, 2008

For those who are interested in the next American elections: Here you can even see pictures of the Rally in Alaska:

Ask Your TV Stations Why You Didn´t See The Biggest Rally in Alaska?

Enjoy....pass it on!

Here are some more Sarah Palin fans....

You are a real all American girl are you not Teas?  Daddy in the military?  Fourth of July parades, mom´s meatloaf for dinner, and the belief that we give a rat´s arse about the election

(N.b. Arse is English for Ass! )

There is no point in voting for Obama anyway

I can´t see some of the southern states stomaching a black president for long....and in those cases the US has a history of carrying out it´s own kind of assassination "democracy"

Awe, don´t say that ... yes the possibilty is there, I just hope "if" that scenerio played out, Joe Biden´s foot in the door is better than the alternative.

P.S. I already voted during early voting OBAMA OBAMA OBAMA!!!!!!! Guess that makes me one of those hate filled liberals

 Barack Obama, Change, Courage, Hope......

 Let us hope there is enough of you who think the same

Hahahaha..... you betcha! dog gone it, dog gone it, you betcha.... totally cute

 .....more like let´s hope the votes (or the voters who try to vote) get counted this time.

Interesting..... 

 There are.  Oh but wait, you don´t give a rats arse. 

Hahahahaha!

You got me

I really don´t though....

 I´m right there with ya!  Don´t you just LOVE early voting?  I´ve been doing it for years now....it just makes it so much easier.

But I do still enjoy going to work an hour or two late on election day and claim that the lines were horrendous!

 You bed Amerikan!  I will be spending my day actually working the campaign so I don´t want to waste my time in line....not that the lines are long where I live with only about 200 people in my town....but I have to go drive the elderly to the polling places.

 Great! My hat is off to you!

 I´m one of those still waiting for my ballot to arrive. I´ve called several to ask WHERE it is. I was told it was sent on the 21st. I´ve been absentee voter for years, so I really am upset it has not arrived yet. All my neighbors have theirs for weeks now....I certainly want to vote in this election.

Yes it´s AWESOME. I actually had no idea about it til this year. Very exciting... now I will be able to do something else when I call work late that day

What do you mean by this... why would that be?

 Just make sure you have your early vote ballot on time!