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Istanbul beneath my wings
(29 Messages in 3 pages - View all)
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20.       Joyce111
276 posts
 12 Sep 2008 Fri 02:36 pm

I assume the small person with the snake is a boy, and he´s naked. Being watched by adult men (Sultans?). The point being that maybe some of the Sultans were homosexual

21.       lady in red
6947 posts
 12 Sep 2008 Fri 03:22 pm

Quoting lady in red:

What exactly does he need to explain?

Quoting longinotti1

 The picture posted into the number 13 reply.. Small person with snake?  What was its point?

 

 Oh sorry - I thought Roswitha was referring to tamikidakika´s previous post:

 

´there is no reference in this movie to homosexuality as far as I remember, but it`s true that many ottoman emperors were homosexual. there is a big deal of proof about this´.

I didn´t think the picture post needed explanation but was not sure of its relevance to the original post.

22.       girleegirl
5065 posts
 12 Sep 2008 Fri 04:48 pm

 

Quoting Roswitha

I too have no time like you, when  I searched the internet, this popped up:

 

 

 {#lang_emotions_lol_fast}{#lang_emotions_lol_fast}{#lang_emotions_lol_fast}

Sorry but that cracked me up!

23.       girleegirl
5065 posts
 12 Sep 2008 Fri 04:49 pm

 

Quoting lady in red

 

 Oh sorry - I thought Roswitha was referring to tamikidakika´s previous post:

 

´there is no reference in this movie to homosexuality as far as I remember, but it`s true that many ottoman emperors were homosexual. there is a big deal of proof about this´.

I didn´t think the picture post needed explanation but was not sure of its relevance to the original post.

 

 Sure looked that way to me too.

 

24.       Roswitha
4132 posts
 12 Sep 2008 Fri 05:23 pm

I have removed the picture in question. You are right, had nothing to do with my original post.

25.       gencturk
326 posts
 12 Sep 2008 Fri 07:26 pm

 

Quoting tamikidakika

the book "Osmanli`nin Kanli tarihi" by Ismail Metin.

 

The books title reveals the subjectivity of the book. "Bloody History of The Ottomans" They were not just gays but also bloodthirsty. There are enough orientalist views already that describes the Ottomans were bad guys.

I think this is an extreme idea to an ordinary Turk. I mean one should think twice before asking this kind of question to an ordinary turk.

 

Quoting Roswitha

Too bad I can´t get this movie here in America!


and the movie, serves the same idea.you can order the movie from U.S.A.: http://www.tulumba.com/storeItem.asp?ic=VI343017HC272
The song is the part that I only liked about the movie.
I would recommend "Hacivat Karagöz Neden Öldürüldü?" http://www.tulumba.com/storeItem.asp?ic=VI341005EH549

But if you want to know the real story you should check this link:
http://www.osmanli.org.tr/en/index.php
and the person you should search for Prof. Dr. Ahmet Akgündüz

26.       Roswitha
4132 posts
 12 Sep 2008 Fri 08:16 pm

Gencturk, if you ever come across this book by Lynne Thornton, you will see the more European Orientalists paintings with different themes of the Orient:

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/reader/2867700604/ref=sib_dp_pt/026-3188092-7656424#reader-link

 

Canli, and this one is for you:

 

http://www.travellersinegypt.org/archives/2004/12/a_cairo_bazaar_the_dellal.html

 

 and this for my British friends:

 

http://www.tate.org.uk/britain/exhibitions/britishorientalistpainting/

 

At the end of the 19th century numerous painters succumbed to the charms of the Orient. Travel to distant lands was easier, and artists brought back voluptuous images filled with sun and colour. The noted specialist Lynne Thornton has studied almost 150 painters, from Delacroix to Ziem. Her fine book Les Orientalistes, Peintres Voyageurs features numerous lesser known masters and is an essential reference work for collectors. It is also a marvellous invitation to travel

 

27.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 13 Sep 2008 Sat 12:16 am

 

Quoting gencturk


The books title reveals the subjectivity of the book. "Bloody History of The Ottomans" They were not just gays but also bloodthirsty. There are enough orientalist views already that describes the Ottomans were bad guys.

I think this is an extreme idea to an ordinary Turk. I mean one should think twice before asking this kind of question to an ordinary turk.

 

What is the extereme idea Gencturk? and why should people ´think twice´ asking to any ordinary Turk? 

why do you think we/turks should be offended  if we hear  ´some of ottoman sultans were GAYS´?

I think you are making the most fundemantal mistake we generaically do and that is ´judging historical events and people with the moral values of the day we live´ 

Let me give you some examples coming into my mind at the moment: 

 

When Sultan Yavuz marched towards Caldiran to fight Shah Ismail of Iran, he chopped off every alevites head, he encountered from Istanbul to the Battle field. 

Grand vizier Kuyucu Murad Pasa´s nick name Kuyucu was given to him because he filled the wells with the heads of alevites during ´Celali rebellions´.

But, of course, at the same time in Europe, they were burning the women alive for the sake of God. 

When Fatih captured istanbul in 1453, the blood flow all over street drains for 3 days (3 days was the time given to the soldiers as ´booty time´ ) But Europeans were not much that different as Spanish were butchering the natives in Americas a bit later.

When we opened our arms to jews from inquisitions in spain, we purely did it with the principle of ´my enemy´s enemy is my friend´ and we gave them only imigrant rights.

 

And about homosexuality:

Istanbul´s hamams were used to meet young boys and have sex with them by some of the ottomani elite  until the 19th century.

The "tellaks" (young boys who helped men to have a bath) did not only work for washing the men.They also served as male prostitutes

There is a book in the Ottoman archives called "Dellakname-i Dilkusa" (The Record of Tellaks). . It tells about the most famous "tellaks" of Istanbul. The way they serve their customers, their price, how many times they can make you reach orgasm, the rate of their beauty and many more details are mentioned in this book.

 

Ottoman Literature is called "Divan Literature". In Divan Literature there are many poems written by male poets about their male lovers. These poems were about how beautiful these boy lovers were. None of these the poet talks about his boy lover and he complains that his beard is starting to grow and because of this his beauty is going away. Boys were maybe kind of substitutes for women who had smooth skin with no hairs. 

Actually sex with boys were not legally forbidden and even the sultans were engaged in sex with male boys.

Some of the sultans had famous affairs with boys. 

There was even a palace for boys in Bursa. 

 

But GencTurk, tell me, why all above should offend any Turk? In the end, it is just "History" .

 

28.       gencturk
326 posts
 13 Sep 2008 Sat 01:55 pm

 

Quoting thehandsom

 

What is the extereme idea Gencturk? and why should people ´think twice´ asking to any ordinary Turk? 

why do you think we/turks should be offended  if we hear  ´some of ottoman sultans were GAYS´?

I think you are making the most fundemantal mistake we generaically do and that is ´judging historical events and people with the moral values of the day we live´

...

...

But GencTurk, tell me, why all above should offend any Turk? In the end, it is just "History" .

I am saying the reality that is not what should be or what shouldn´t be. And that is so expected because we are muslims and the Ottomans were muslims, actually they have the caliphate  that is Leader of all muslims. And one of the biggest sin in islam is homosexuality. The quran says Lut nation had been perished by god because of this sin. So that would be normal reaction. if you dont belive me go and ask people on streets what they think about their ancestors gayness! 
I dont belive that values of the day. I believe in eternal values. Values never changes but people change. Homosexuality is not only a modern day phenomenon. And I think being gay in modern era is more usual than passed ages.

Anyway I didnt know there is a book in our archives related the issue. I will search for it.

 

29.       Roswitha
4132 posts
 13 Sep 2008 Sat 04:31 pm

Gencturk, thank you for sharing this link about the People of the Lut. I enjoyed viewing your link of the Perished people. Good research!

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