Intresting subject!!

....
 
  You might find this question totally irrelevant — and I would totally understand that. There might be a thousand valid reasons. Maybe you are a secular person who doesn´t believe in metaphysical categories such as heaven or hell. Maybe you are a Hindu who rather believes in Karma — a system of reward and punishment in this world, not somewhere else. Or maybe you are a deist who just believes in a Creator, but no revealed religion. Then, you would really not spend time contemplating what happens to which faith community after death.
......
   Of course, both Islam and Christianity say that it is only God who has the ultimate authority and knowledge about these matters. But, on the other hand, both religions have an exclusivist tradition, which says that only their own followers will be  saved.  No wonder, for most evangelical Christians,  there is no way to God  other than via Jesus Christ. And for many Muslims, there is no other way to salvation other than that of Prophet Muhammad.

  As a Muslim, I have always thought so, and I have a good reason for it: There are verses in the Koran which explicitly say that all people who believe in God and do good things will be saved. Here is, for example, verse 62 of the second sura, i.e., chapter:

 ....the divine text by noting that Jews, Christans,  Sabians  and others will be saved  once they profess Islam.  Yet this doesn´t make sense, because if they convert to Islam, then they are no longer Jews, Christians or  Sabians,  but Muslims.

  When I noted this contradiction to a strongly exclusivist Muslim scholar a few years ago, I got a political rather than a theological answer.  What will happen do you think if we say non-Muslims are saved, too,  he asked.  Then there will be no need for conversion to Islam.

  Apparently the question boils down to what kind of a God we believe in: one whose grace and mercy is all-encompassing, or one who favors only our own tribe  I tend to believe in the former. To be sure, I can still say that my religion is the best way to God — but it may well be not the only way.

the rest of the article:
http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/editorial.php?ed=mustafa_akyol

A very interesting article H.  Personally I believe the reason all cultures created a heaven is because humans cannot stomach the fact that we die.  Whilst we can grasp the fact that animals and plants die, we are unable to concieve of our existence coming to an end.  Mortality is, indeed, a terrifying fact.

A "hell" concept is very useful to keep law and order within a community - nothing more, nothing less. 

Absolutely right

Of course I don´t agree with this at all.  I do believe in heaven and I also strongly feel we all have a purpose why we are here on this earth and it´s just not science.  I tend to think no matter what relgion you are, as long as you have lived a healthy life and try to live by God´s words a heaven awaits us all.  I don´t believe it´s fear for people, but rather hope.  Like I have always said I would rather take my chances and believe in something and reap the rewards than take the risk of never knowing what heaven could be.

Heheheh that is not faith!!!! That is called "hedging your bets"

How can you call yourself a christian, if you don´t actually believe it, but do it do insure the possibility of after-life!

You are among good company..... churches are filled with old people who suddenly realise death is near and hedge their bets in the same way as you!

 Interresting coming from someone who has no faith, how do you know what faith is?  Let´s see I call myself a Catholic, based on all of the sacraments I have made in my life given the fact I go to church on Sundays and that I believe in God and try to follow his teachings.  As far as hedging your bet´s...doesn´t look like I could loose now does it.  What do I have to loose?  Sounds like a good bet to me.

What´s even more interesting to me is why someone like yourself is so afraid to believe?  How do you base your spirtuality?  I can´t fathom having no spirtuality in my life...to each it´s own.

you undoubtedly deserve going to hell

 Of course I am aware what faith is!!! I was christened and attended church as a child and blindly believed in the same way as you.  Then I got older and became interested in all religions and found that the more I discovered, the less I believed.

Going to church on Sundays does not make you a Christian!  Where in the bible does Jesus ask you to go to church on a Sunday? 

It sounds like a good bet to you?   You may as well worship the spaghetti monster  

A life without spirituality is no different from yours - I can still appreciate all the wonder of life and the miracles of this world - I just dont believe they have been created by your mythical "god".  I see evolution, not a big one-creation.  Evolution is a miracle of life in itself - there is no need to attribute a "god" to it

 Yeah

Ama.... I will be in good company

I think this topic is a little bit skewed... it should read "Will non-Christians go to heaven too"!!!   It is an interesting topic, since Turkey is predominantly Muslim... I wonder if they will also go to heaven...

I would really love to believe in heaven (because I know that if there were I´d definitely go there   ) however I cannot manage to believe.

Though feeling even the cyber presence of catwoman is enough to bring me the heavenly feelings in my miserable life.  I don´t think if there were heaven it would feel better than this.

Maybe you cannot believe because you are an angel yourself.. people need to believe in you.

I don´t think this is the right place to ask such questions. If you are asking just for the hell of it not minding what kind of a reaction it may cause then you should try googling it just for the sake of not causing any. If you are geniunely asking this question (here) still you are making a big mistake. If the answer is really important to you, you know you should take it more seriously and read the book to start with. If your intention is evil and if you are asking about heaven with devil sitting on your shoulder then you are welcome to asking it here. I am always in favour of wasting my time deliberately...

 "filled" ?

Actually, in England, I would say there are very many more younger families attending church suddenly when the children are around 8 years old, in order to fulfill the criteria for gaining access to church high schools and a supposed better education . 

Of course my claim is probably as inaccurate and cynical as yours .

 Good to see you were christened, you may still have hope then.  I don´t believe just because you go to church you are a good Christian.  Many people are hyprocrites who go to church, but then again no one is perfect.  It doesn´t specifically state in the bible you must go to a building called "church", however in Hebrews it emphasis the continual need to come together as a community or "assembly.  You have to remember the Bible is basically written as parables and metaphors.  You can´t take everything what the bible says literally without trying to interpretate what the meaning is.  Somewhere lies some sort of truth, which has carried on for thousands of years. 

You know really we could debate back and forth about this, however no one is certain until that day comes.. You could be right and there is the chance you could be wrong. Call me crazy but I´d like to think there is another place better than this world and it´s called heaven. 

I disagree with you here Vineyards. I think this is an interesting question that can and should spark an interesting debate in the mutlicultural community that we have here. This is not an offensive question, yet, if somebody finds it offensive then still we should not censor ourselves for such a reason and appease rather immature attitudes.

Aenigma, I think that you have NO RIGHT to judge other people´s beliefs or spirituality (you are not a better or smarter person just because you´re an atheist). It´s none of your business what kind of christian/muslim/pastafarian she/he is -- it´s their own personal ideas that you should rather feel grateful that they agree to discuss in public. I find it quite annoying when some people judge others for their beliefs!!! I think people have full rights to believe in any religion they like -- as long as they respect each other and don´t push their beliefs onto others.

But they are more like missionaries than any Muslim or Christian on TC.  I think Aenigma has delusions of grandeur, now known as TheAenigma rather than AnAenigma .. . hmmmm . . . "Thou shalt worship no other Aenigma but Me."  Seems you can take the girl out of religion but you can´t take religion out of the girl.   

I finally discovered her true name though  . . . Miss Iona Ry 

It seems whitepath confused , actually he is looking at the single verses not seeing the big picture of Quran. It is clear from the Quran(98:1-3, 5.69, 7:157, 2:135-137) that the belief in one Creator and the Last day should be in accordance and conformity with Quran. Such verses emphasize that giving a name of one´s religion or creed carries no importance. Besides the word muslim means "the one who submitted to God". And i think his definition of sabians seems wrong to me also .

On the note of spirituality - who has a chance and who has not I´ve studied texts that clearly show that if you´re Catholic and you follow all the rituals and is overall a good person, you have a pretty good chance for an afterlife (in history you could just buy your way out of course). If you are Lutheran the important thing is that you simply believe (a part of believing is also to be nice towards other people). I don´t know about other religions since I have not studied them.

Islam says that "only Allah knows" so no answer is definite I guess, but the islamic texts indicate that non-Muslims will not go to heaven.

So it looks like the two of you have different answers... Didn´t someone say before that Islam has clear answers?

 Actually I tend to think that the Quran is rather ´mysterious´ on the topic of afterlife for ´non-muslims´. In some parts, it orders you to do things or prohibits you to do things, and if you follow these up you will go to heaven (like haram halal hasan etc) . But I also read this verse where it says it is enough for a christian to recognize Muhammad as the prophet. I cant remember exactly, but I remember when reading Quran, I oculdnt figure out what exactly ´needs´ to be done to enter heaven, and if non-muslims could meet such requirements as well.

 I personally believe in nothing, sometimes I feel as if I do believe in some power and in some ´energy´ that we could turn into after we die, but most of the time I believe in nothing. But I certainly do not believe in a power (or a God) that has composed an unclear book of rules, I don´t believe in a power within a framework of ´theology´. Actually, if I were to believe, I would refuse to believe in a religion that says that people who live their lives equally good, don´t have the same rights of going to heaven, only because one believes in God and acts accordingly, and the other does not believe but acts out of human goodness.

i think thats easier to find most objective trues in ethical rules instead of theological  claims...life´s self is heaven or hell already,depend our prefers,isn´t it?

Even as a Christian, I have a hard time thinking certain people are excluded from heaven.  It seems kind of silly when you think most religions preach a basically the same principles.....yes, even the ones that are not one of the three major monotheistic religions. 

If I am to believe in Christs teachings (which I do)....he died for everyones sins...not just some peoples sins.  He especially reached out to those with the greatest amount of sin and asked us not to judge other people.  I don´t think it is for people to judge other peoples worthiness to get into heaven.  

It´s hard for me to imagine that some people may actually think that only they will go to heaven (if such a place exists), just because they belong to a specific religion.

 Me too. In Turkey I had an American ´friend´, of whom I always wondered where he spent his breaks. Later I realised he had been reading the Bible. All fine and well until later I heard from anotehr classmate he had said I (and another classmate, the only atheists in course) would burn in hell.  It´s impossible to have a friendship with someone who thinks that way.

Isn´t this an ultimate arrogance and fascism? And this is exactly where religions become fascistic. Such a person must harvest lots of hatred and be mentally ill, otherwise I don´t know how anybody would wish and accept something like that for another human being, just because they ´think´ differently.

 I agree with Lis and I don´t think because you are a specific religion only those will go to heaven.  But I also believe if you don´t allow God in your life, you will be judged.  Call me arrogant..but I don´t believe heaven is just a free ticket.

But - why be religious in the first place if you think anyone´s let in?

 I also question this..I happen to think if you don´t believe in God you will be judged..

 Then this super good intentioned all knowing merciful god happens to be ´judging´ a lot of GOOD people into hell. Sorry but, if I were to believe in a god, I would believe in a god of goodness, I would refuse to believe in a God who judges solely upon the fact whether you believe in something that he made so hard for ´us´ to believe by leaving so little signs, or not.

Then I suggest this god, who apparantly has no intention whatsoever to make a division between GOOD and BAD, makes the fires of hell hotter for the BAD-Christians than he makes it for the GOOD-infidels. Because after all, they knew the truth and decided to act otherwise.

 Maybe just because you really BELÝEVE in the existence of a God. Or maybe because you believe heaven and hell arent divisions between christians and infidels, but between good and evil minded people, and because you happen to believe that living according to the bible will amke you a good person.

I dont really know any reason why one could be religious, but if there are people who believe in God just because of fear for hell.. then I really dont believe that is the kind of Christian god would like to let into his clouds and angels.

Id like Teaschip though, you would explain what happens to me?

Ive been raised in a family where both mom and dad abandoned the faith they grew up with (respectively Anglican and Catholic) at the time they started ´thinking´. So all I ever saw of religion was on mondaymorning at primary school where we said prayers because it was compulsory. And at my neighbours who were firm Protestants, and where I used to avoid dinner at sunday because they were speaking for an hour out of some book of which I did not understand a word. That has been my last encounter with religion really.

I am nearly 21 now, have read the Bible and half way through Kuran, but I did not see the light. I have questioned what a possible god could be like according to these books, and decided it to be too difficult to believe in such a power, because it doesnt fit my ideas of how the world is supposed to work and because I think both books contain too much violence towards dissident thoughts, that I do not wish to be part of it. So I made a choice for myself not to be religious.

However, I support a few charity cases, I avoid to lie and if I do its the occassional white lie, I am faithful to those I love in both friendship and my relationship, I respect my parents, I do not kill or steel, I never bullied someone at school, I do not lay eyes on anothers property nor am ý jealous or greedy, I stand up for elderly or pregnant persons in the bus, I am there for friends in need and I have no racist affiliations. Practically, I live by the book. I have my flaws yes (to name just 2 religious-related: I dont think homosexuality is something disrespectful and I dont believe in no sex before marriage), but overall, I think I am a good human being. Actually, one that would deserve to have a place in heaven. Is it my fault then, that I cannot see the signs?

--- 

I dont know about the bible, ý just add this because I never forgot these words after I read them for the first time:

According to Quran it is not my fault, apparantly Allah planned it all and Im doomed from the day I was born:

Surah 2 - Al-Baqarah   The heifer

7. Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur).

As for people who say they believe but dont really:

Same surah, section 2,

10: In their hearts is a disease; and Allah has increased their disease

(I took this from Abdullah Yusuf Ali, an english quran translation written for the Muslims who dont have arabic as their native language. )

DK...Faith is like an emotion.  I can´t explain why I believe in God anymore than I can explain why I love my husband - but I know I do.  I definately have questioned my faith at times.  Maybe you will one day feel it and maybe you won´t....but if you don´t, I personally don´t feel like that makes you a bad person.  I would hope that God judges us by our actions even in the absense of faith. 

OK, Teas....stop thinking I will burn in hell you bed Amerikan! (please don´t tell on me either!)

My very good friend, Catholic theology diplomant, told me that 6th commandment is not referring to the sex before marriage, but cheating on your partner/spouse, meaning cheating in general.

Deli_kizin, you´re living right by most religions and their rules

 Then why do devout catholics wait till marriage? They are misinformed?

Yeap Or Ishould rather say they fall for the Church´s preaching. The Bible and Church interpretation are two different things. Each Christian denomination claims they have the monopoly for the correct interpretation of God´s words. Original 10 commandments were changed with Catholics and Jesus´s being God accepted by means of voting during The Council of Nicea. Religions have little to do with God. They are institutions, be it Christianity, Islam or The Spaghetti Thing. You usually pick up the one you were brought up in and continue "family tradition"

Very right Daydreamer

Someone on a page before this wrote - I know faith, I was baptised and went to church...

So wrong... That is not knowing Faith, only a certain religion, denomination. Faith has ABSOLUTELY nothing to with the way you pray to God and call denomination you belong to.

 there is so few of them left....

And out of cruiosity, can a person adopt catholism without being baptized and having any relationship with the church?

How do you mean mtlm? Just follow the ideas catholicm is speaking of?

 It is not ebcause I do not agree with you however these are just your claims because people who believe in religions do believe that religions are directly related with God and they are essential because they tell us to live the way God want us to live, like a life guide.

And I think religions are not institutions, but churches can be at the most.

Anyway, these days when a person ask me about my blief, I just tell him that I do not have time to think about these kind of stuff. Then they ask me if I am atheist, and I say "don´t know because first I should give a thought about it even to be an atheist.

 Forexample I decide that I want to be a catholic, do I have to be baptized?

 If you want to be a practical catholic, or as you wrote devoted - than yes, and not only baptised, after that you would have to give your best live in accordance with the rules set out in the Bible and so on.

One can be not religious and yet live a righteous life just because one is living but her/his conscience.

Maybe I have a little too opened view of mine and other religious because of the very specific life I have in my country where religion is important, but none is dominant on the state level. Some would strongly disagree with this, but one has to really become critical and sincere to her/himself in odrer not to take discussions like this one as attacks on something or someone

 A very "Christian" view and typical of many "Christians" I know

Don´t hold on to every word I write below, it´s been a long time since I went to Sunday school and read religious literature...

Maybe I memorised it wrong since any OTHER way is against my reason and sanity - Every person, baptised or not, christian or not, will be judged by her/his deeds and actions, how much good did she/he did in life, how many times choose the harder way just because that was the honest way. I believe that ALL good people will go to Heaven, so our DEEDS will be judged, not US. Hope this makes sense to someone else, not just me

You are indeed WRONG, faith has everything to do with your belief in God.  Do you even know what faith means? Part of christianity is being baptised and going to church, but you also have to follow the teachings and apply it.   If you don´t believe in God that is your choice, we all are born with free will. 

 Hahaha as I have long suspected, the main reason for religion is "fear of death" and you just confirmed it (along with Teaship).

So forget your "love of God", it is all about the paradise eh?  It is rather like marrying someone for money!

I love Azade´s phrase "let anyone in"...  how tragic to live your life under strict religious rules (not that many actually do that ) and then find out that all the sinners made it through too

Sure anyone can adopt Catholicism, however in order to be received fully into the church you have to receive three sacraments, initiation (baptism), confirmation and the Eucharist.  Once you are baptized you become a Catholic.  The other two sacraments deepens your initiation.

I am indeed RIGHT

because it is not enough to be BAPTISED and go to church to HAVE FAITH and believe in God, isn´t it?

 Good to know where all consistent then..

 Reread what I wrote and you tell me..

You´d be send to hell via express mail

It´s not about what OTHER people are doing, it´s about what you are doing (Not you specifically TheAenigma you as any human being )

 Ditto

 Yes, very a unchristian hypocritcal view

 Let me just say that most people in this world are afraid of dying, who isn´t?  However, this is not the main reason why people turn to God.  People turn to God for various reasons and at different times in their lives.  To assume that people belong to religion soley based on the fear of hell is a misconcieved notion.   What is wrong with wanting to be with friends and family in a utopia, anyhow? 

Something you forgot here, we are all sinners..

You should speak..  since your so in touch with your christian views.

Actually, I don´t need your judgement, but would say I have led good life, am caring, have never hurt anyone or anything, and probably have committed less "sins" than many a religious fanatic!!!

Maybe that makes ME a better person than you eh?  I am good because it is my nature, you are good as it gives you a passport to your "heaven"

Sorry about all that YOU

I agree with you

And puhhhlease don´t mention religious fanatics hahahahaa I might be in need to duck a rock or two 

I don´t believe only my being Catholic is giving me a passport to the Good Side of the Afterlife....

Haha Aenigma you are right on point So many people suddenly turn to religion when they face hard times then forget about it again once the storm has passed. It´s like an insurance policy.

Though I also think that a lot of genuine religious people have found their faith in hard times and take it as a sign that it´s real. They are often more devout than those whom religion has been forced upon at birth.

And Meltem is begging to God whose presence is unknown : If aenigma is in heaven, I don´t want to go there.  She will go bla bla bla!!!

 On the contrary, where have I judged you.  In fact I think it´s the other way around.    All I said was that I felt one day it would be God who judged us all.  I never said I was going to heaven nor did I indicate that you would go to hell.  Interesting how people are twisting and turning things around here.

 These are the people you see at church once a year.  At Christmas!  But yes you will find many people turn to God when they need him the most.  But I don´t think there is anything wrong with that as long as they are geniune.  And you are right people who have converted during their adult years are usually the most devout.

 True

especially having in mind she was talking to me, not to you....

 Teas, just turn the other cheek!   

 You right... it´s already forgotten.

Teas do calm down - I was replying to Amnariel´s post not yours!

Pay attention!

I was too distracted by trying to get my morning prayers in..  sorry about that.

 I take people as I find, regardless of colour, creed or religion   and I find it hard to stomach that someone so staunchly religous as you can write that those who do not believe in God will be judged.  So when does his happen?  Can you ask God and let me know....................I need to make some plans

Canim, thank you for your prayers. I will make sure that I put you in a different sector of heaven then Aenigma. In fact, you will be right by my side.

You seem to be so sure you will be ´admin´ in the other life too.

If it is the case, send Aenigma to my sector please!

 First of all what makes you think I discriminate against color, creed or religion?  You are making assumptions about me that aren´t true.  I recommend you get some pepto if you have a bad stomach.  Otherwise, I never said that non-believers would be the only ones judged.  I believe we all will. 

 I asked God and he said you have alot of planning to do. You need to try to keep your emotions intact when you post here, that would be a good start.  Remember this is God speaking of course.

While you´re at it can you please ask Him to uncomplicate my life a little too I could use some Divine intervetion ASAP 

Well yes, I will. I passed my tests. If you have any requests, please send me your prayers, I may hear to one or two of them per person.

 Awww don´t worry canim, we will not be in the same place.  Fortunately (for me) you will be somewhere further south (and a lot hotter) as punishment for doing your scientific experiments on your pets!

Have God also told you that your heaven can be complete when he put me there?

 I think i explained this here;below ..

Believing in one Creator is the main message of Quran, if you have submitted to one God and if the description of God do have confirmity with the Quran(actually Quran claims it is confirmation of all other holy books which was not corrupted, means the ones who once believed that holy books were also muslims according to Quran) that means you are also muslim and these verses herald that there is a reward for them regardless of religion that they say to believe thus giving a name of one´s religion carries no importance. And of course only God knows what is in heart. 2:135-137 describes this well, i think;

Are these the doctrine of christianity? As far as i know in christianity only salvation is Jesus Christ not deeds. And Jesus´ sacrifice saves people, according to Pavlus(Paul) Abraham was saved through faith, Noah was saved through faith, so it seems in christianity faith in Jesus Christ carries importance rather than deeds.

This also discussed in Bibles, see the below passages, choose one to believe , Christians had chosen Paul;

Can someone please tell me how was the Holy Bible corrupted? I´ve heard this a few times, and when I asked how, in which way, no one knew to explain me furtner than "Quran says so"  

Honestly, but really really honestly and from a critical and questioning point of view to the christianity - some of those things (commandments, rules, guidelines) are very confusing. You cannot be saved merely by believing in Jesus, that is a fact. Human kind was saved by Jesus trough his sacrifise, but when you look at that from todays perspective... it didn´t last too long, didn´t it. World is a corrupted and evil place.

Can you prove the opposition rather than "christians says so"? muslims believe gospels are the halucinations of Paul as well as christians believe Quran is the halucinations of Muhammed. So choose one to believe or none of them, free-will ...

 The one you try to explain there in your post, more looks like the doctrine of Islam

haha

what is got to do with doctrine of Islam?

it could have been the doctrine of pasta religion

 Yes, you are right that could be also the doctrine of pastamaria religion , because logic says so if you believe in God and justice...

SCARY! I´ve read somewhere that

"When you talk to God

- you pray

When God talks to you

- you´re schizophrenic"

Cat´s going to be an admin in heaven? Holy Crap! Where do I sign up?

Teas...how´s your shrink these days?

I know the details about where you sign up dear DD.

Pm me your msn.. I will pass the details

Right...all I´ll find will be your bank account ans a sum of money you want me to pay in. I might be blonde but not that naive. I know Britain is in crisis - Yilgun informed me

hahahahahahahaaa

Oh My God hahaha

I´ll have one of what ever they had

And I´d prefer to be in the musical department of Heaven, only FYI

 but both religions are basically promoting SAME VIRTUEEEES, and that is what matters, isn´t it?

Or I´m just a biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig idealist and dreamer... 

Well, I WILL be! Why is that soooo surprising, eh?  

don´t worry... all requests please send to Meltem as to where you wish to reside once in heaven (I made her the director of that department).

 Thank you! Service here is really excellent

 in fact who knows who wrote books of Bible... Then there were much more texts, though imperor Konstantin dicided to put some into Bible and some not. He even was not christian and was baptised on deathbed... Most probably he chose advantageous texts

when people say smth like "Quran says so" it means they do not know and never wanted to know

 maybe we could start judging ourselves while we are still here? Life would become much better if we had moral court in our souls ... it is like being employee and employer. the latter takes all responsibility, directs the business, etc. this way is harder, of course

we all believe. Some believe in God, some in gods, some - there is no god. though we all believe in smth. and defend our believes with enviable constancy. in accordance with our believes we have our hell and paradise. all of us will go somewhere... and we will not ask each other where... Muslims will not ask Christians and vice versa. thus, does not matter in what religion you are. ay statement here you either accept as axiom or does not accept, bec it can not be proved. all books ever written about it were written by humans who were still on the Earth.

the initial message says

i may chose the worse way, though it is still way. What is best for one is the worst for other. and Who jadge the level of appropriateness of ways to heaven.

this topic is important to winning adherents, but it is the other story.