It is a vast topic obviously... with a lot of nuanced details... but I would like to just quote an article that proves quite blatantly ´into our faces´ how racist this country still is.

Election spurs ´hundreds´ of race threats and crimes

Cross burnings. Schoolchildren chanting "Assassinate Obama." Black figures hung from nooses. Racial epithets scrawled on homes and cars.

Incidents around the country referring to President-elect Barack Obama are dampening the postelection glow of racial progress and harmony, highlighting the stubborn racism that remains in America.

From California to Maine, police have documented a range of alleged crimes, from vandalism and vague threats to at least one physical attack. Insults and taunts have been delivered by adults, college students and second-graders.

There have been "hundreds" of incidents since the election, many more than usual, said Mark Potok, director of the Intelligence Project at the Southern Poverty Law Center, which monitors hate crimes.

One was in Snellville, Ga., where Denene Millner said a boy on the school bus told her 9-year-old daughter the day after the election: "I hope Obama gets assassinated." That night, someone trashed her sister-in-law´s front lawn, mangled the Obama lawn signs, and left two pizza boxes filled with human feces outside the front door, Millner said.

She described her emotions as a combination of anger and fear.

"I can´t say that every white person in Snellville is evil and anti-Obama and willing to desecrate my property because one or two idiots did it," said Millner, who is black. "But it definitely makes you look a little different at the people who you live with, and makes you wonder what they´re capable of and what they´re really thinking."

(...)

What are your thouths on racism..?

Racism (and other forms of discrimination) is horrible because in my view one must not judge people by race, sexe, age, ethniticity or ... but by their own deeds. But, I think that every one, really every one has sometimes a racistic thought. That is not the real problem, as far as one recognises it as bad. It becomes awful when someone with thoughts like that is acting towards his/her thoughts. 

Any other comments?

Yes!  I just don´t have time today

Ok... I do wonder about your thoughts on this topic...

 Well, briefly (!) I think we are all guilty of racism. The word racism encompases far more than "black v white".  It can include anything from mocking people who live different areas within one country right through to different skin colours and nationalities.

It is something that is "taught".  You are not born a racist.  Invariably it is handed down to you by your parents.

Essentially, I think it is about judging someone for ANY reason other then for their own merit. 

I think all the things you mentioned have the same bottom line roots as the racism that we know best. It is a form of tribalism, where everybody who visibly is different then the rest is treated/perceived as the "other", not one of us, therefore the group is not protecting her/him. I recommend the book "Demonic Males: Apes and the Origins of human violence" by Dale Peterson. I think they described the roots of tribalism in this book exquisitly.

However, my question about racism was more about the current shape of it in your communities... do you see it? do you think it exists? does it bother you? why do you think it´s there? It would be interesting to compare the views of westerners and Turkish, Egyptian, Lebanese... and all other nationalities that we have, about racism in their countries.

 We dont have this kind of racism here

But we have things like what AE has mentioned,mocking  people who live at different areas within the country ,sometimes by jokes made just for them,also we exchange them with them,they laugh about them,but still i think or feel that part inside them would be somehow annoyed

But somehow it doesnt make problem in here,because at same time we mock them because of who they are and where they are from,make jokes

We put them at high level/rank/situation too

We believe that the best men to deal with,who are honorable,respectable...etc are from those areas and we lable them by that too.

Ýf i understood that word right ´köyler´ and its usage in Türkiye,so it is same with that...at the time we call them köyler,still köyler is symbol of honorable ,generouse,respectable,kind,...etc people

Ýts a bit complicated to explain,but anyhow racism as you meant ´between black and whites´, we dont have here.

It is very very depressing indeed. Racisism in the US has a long history. The White/Black racisism in particular is "special". What happened to the Black people here is a unique event in human history, and still in living memory, although those who have first hand experience knowing exslaves are very old now, they are still alive. It´s interesting to note that. Michele Obama´s ancestors were slaves.

Race relations have improved a great deal in the last 40 years, but there is still a lot that needs to be done. It does go both ways, but I feel the Blacks have more "cause" to be upset than the "whites".

In the case of the "Whites", it´s like the flailing about of the doomed drowning man. They will take you down with them as they fight assistance, in their ignorance of attempts to assist them. They are afraid their race is dying out, or being overtaken. They are loosing power, so to speak.They were once the masters, the blacks had to defer to them, do their bidding. They were not able to operate independantly.

I discussed this with my friends and one, who is very philisophical, said humans are "pack animals" at the base. They gather in groups they feel commradery with. It´s unfortunate, most don´t see the universiality in all life. We are all one.The well being on one is the well being of all. It´s like a virus, one gets sick and others catch it.

This aspect of American culture is something I´ve fought for years, and it shames me deeply. It´s something I´ve seen foreigners learn when they come here. It´s really very sad. People who never thought about white, brown or black, learn.....It´s a tragic lesson.

I think the election of Obama shows that most Americans have moved on past this silly racisism, infortunately, we are also seeing that many have not.

I work, hope and pray for the best, and the patience and knowledge to deal with the worst.

Thank you Alameda for a great post!

Cat, I almost feel ashamed to say it, but I have no personal experience of racism, which is why I can´t comment!!!  I live in a community that is almost 100% white-British so I suppose it is very easy for me to sit here and have my idealist views! When people complain about the vast numbers of immigrants coming to the UK, our community think of the nice Polish cafe in our main town, the ONE corner shop run by a nice family of Pakistanis, or the TWO Turkish kebab shops, and cry "ouh but they fit so well into our community and are so friendly and lovely" !!!!! 

I suppose the nearest I get so seeing racism of my OWN race is actually here on this site!!!  I suddenly realise that many Turks judge us because we are westerners and because of the reputation of some tourists, and a quick glance at the translation forum reminds us that only the very desparate or liberal of Turks would consider marrying one of "us" and taking us back to their small Turkish village to meet their parents!

Witnessing racism in the media sickens me. I immediately put myself in the place of the individual who is being discriminated against, and it feels worse than bullying - it is victimisation at it´s very worse. 

However, I think there is something (as you said) within us that can become territorial.  How would I feel to be living in a London suberb that has become almost entirely populated with immigrants who exclude me from their culture?  How would I feel to be a "native" (there are no real natives left!) in the Caribbean and watching the rich American/British immigrants buying up land and excluding me from their clubs and bars?

These days I only visit places like London as a tourist.  However I recently had to visit a hospital in the centre of London.  During my two hour visit, I did not see a single white English person.  Some staff were not talking English to eachother, many were in burkas or veils or Sikh headwear, the patients were all of other ethnic origin to my own, and it was hard to understand what the doctor was saying to me.  I had not realised I felt uneasy or uncomfortable about it until I went to the X-Ray department and found English staff there, and realised I was much more comfortable.   Does this make me a racist?  I don´t know - it is an uncomfortable thought. 

I believe racism in the US is a unique form, rising as it does from the roots of slavery and born of guilt and power.  Racism elsewhere seems to me to be less about the colour of skin and more about clashing of cultures and resentment of change in our community.  I can understand both but despise it at the same time

it is interesting that people still complain about racism even though their president is black and the first lady is black whos ancestors were slaves.

i think im tired of idiocy written by alameda-like people.

im a racist, have to admit.

im a racist against certain mentality.

 Does that make you a mentalist?

True and not true. I can see it daily around me. Unlike you I live in a very multicultural neighbourhood of Rotterdam, with a 75% not-white-Dutch population. In Rotterdam (only 650.000 people) we have 162 nationalities (out of I believe 196 worldwide!) and yes, in some areas there are many problems based on culture, religion but also sometimes on race. It´s a clash between ´old´ citizens and ´new´ ones, both claiming their ´rights´. A clash between ´we Christian Dutch´ (60% of the Dutch is not-religious! but it´s a nice excuse people think) and other religions, mostly Islam. Many times problems are based on ignorance and not wanting to learn from both sides. Radicalism at both sides is growing, the number of gangs and groups of strong-armed guys is increasing. A clash between living indoors and a culture of living outdoors like in more tropical countries. As a consequence of the history of slavery of my country - which I am absolutely not proud of - there are many people from Surinam and the Dutch Antilles - there you have the discrimination based on color. 

Like you sometimes I understand but indeed I despise it as well, though I have to admit that sometimes I find myself thinking not so nice thoughts - whenever that happens, I say to myself ´stop it´ and I try to see it in larger view but the fact these thoughts occur is worrying enough. And I was not raised this way! What I wonder many times is: Is it logical that I have these thoughts sometimes, due to many problems - only 3 days ago there was a shooting-affair only 50 meters from my house - not the first this year, most loverboys (pimps, not dudu´s!) have foreign roots, most drugrunners have foreign roots etc. - or am I changing in my views towards the right-wing political side?

NB. I say ´foreign roots´ not because I see them as foreigners but because many people from especially Morocco and Turkey even when they are born here and sometimes not able to speak their ancesters language fluently, call themselves ´Turks´ or Moroccons´ instead of Dutch.

(I find it very difficult to write things like this in another language than my own, so I hope I didn´t say anything confusing.)

 is it a new word?

 Like Femmenism?

 two new words today

 Stop going off topic, you bed femmenist mentalist

 did you become a mod?

 Yeah

Why are you modist.....ouhhh hehehehe!  Femme modest?  Never

I detest racism and I witnessed it first hand in America to such an extent I was completely shocked.  There is not just racism against blacks, Hispanics, etc etc but against white trailor trash as they are called.  I was shocked to the core.  The one reason that I will never go to America again.

Did you read the article in the first post? It´s quite simple-minded to say taht tehre is no racism because the president is black!

What is that? Would you mind elaborating a little bit? thanks...

 if you read my post carefully, i didnt say that theresnt racism in america. do you really think that racism is still the same like in years 60? the fact that there are lots of black within the governmental positions, almost in every administration shows that the situation of blacks has much improved.

its such a shame, that people arent still satified, in every country theres racism less or more.

so far havent seen black presidents or prime ministers in europe.

I do understand what you mean, and completely empathize. I don´t think that´s racism, but I think that it might turn into one, if the community ralations take a bad turn. And I don´t think it´s anyone´s fault other then the politicians´. Such matters should be taken into consideration before allowing massive numbers of immigrants to come to your country. Any massive cultural changes should be introduced slowly and with an emphasis on mixing together, otherwise, groups and gangs will form and will resent each other...

Yes... America has been founded on racism and sexism. (British) white, male, rapists and slave-owners are the founding fathers of this country...

Yes, of course the situation is much better then it used to be. And I think that the issue of race has improved more then the issue of gender, although race has been treated far more despicable then anything else in the past. But it does make me think that we still haven´t had a female president, although women make up 50% of the country, and there´s such huge gender gap in all important areas... But yes, racism is not the same as it used to be, absolutely. It is still there though...

I have no idea if I am a racist or not. Poland is mostly a homogeneous country with people better falling into a stereotypical categories of white catholics. Polish people are often called racists but that stems from the fact that we´re not taught or used to deal with people of different hue. Yes, I imagine a black person would most probably be stared at, probably treated as a weirdo in most cases. In extreme cases there might be violence - I remember when I was in secondary school International House would not bring coloured teachers for fear of their being assaulted. That´s Poles in general - either you fit or you´re persecuted.

These days as our borders have become more open things change - now it´s a "fad" to taste some black coffee as I´ve heard young people say. Polish women often go for affairs with black guys as they consider it a kind of social nobilitation. No wonder an African guy had no problem infecting about 12 Polish women with HIV - they´d screw any black guy to show their open-mindness.

Personally I don´t care what colour people are but I did feel a tad awkward surrounded by Asian and African looking staff in hospital. I´d never have sex with a black guy because I don´t find them attractive - if that makes me a racist, apparently I am one. Yet, I´d have no problem working or being friends with people of colour.

I wonder what accounts for the fact that most people in welfare lines are coloured, even in countries that provide equal chances for all people (US is definitely not one of them as they either have most radical racist organisations like New Order or introduce programmes discriminatory for non-coloured people).

I find it rather amusing that you felt you had to stress the "British" Catwoman.  Do you think I don´t know history?

Perhaps you felt my comment was somehow anti-American, when in fact I was merely stating fact, i.e. that the US has a unique problem with racism compared to the rest of the world due to the slave trade

Well... no, I said British to stress that imperialism is a universal problem. We are talking a lot about the US running the world and exploiting the weaker countries, but US is a country that has been settled by the British who came here, killed all native inhabitants and had their colony here. No, I didn´t feel that your comment is anti-American at all and I did agree with you about the ´special´ nature of the roots of racism in the US.

This topic could go on and on since there are so many forms of racism.  What I experience here in the present day U.S. is that racism goes in many directions. You have white hate crimes and black/asian hate crimes.  Many of our cities and towns are very much divided by race you have the bad sections..gettos and the white trailer trash type people. People are sterotyped it happens I think it´s natural, whether it´s or right or wrong.  What I mostly have a problem with is people playing the race card and profiting off of it.  If you only knew how many frivilous lawsuits we have here it´s sickening. It´s a shame this goes on because it only brews more resentment and more racism. 

 Im so sorry for you ros, alameda and catwoman that you live in such a horrible racist country. is there anything we can do help you out from that slavery country?

if you wanna immigrate to any central asian country, give me a shout.

 yeah, all brits say so, however they love touring in that racist dummies country.

 Mmmmm,Femm dear,i wonder what is your problem ! heh

 why? you wanna solve it?

 Naahhh,not really,you can have all the fun,and i will have mine watching lol

you just reminded me of another member

Beside,i know you dont like it this way 

You solve your problems by yourself

 no comment...

white&black,poor&rich,pretty&ugly,woman&man ,Muslim&Cristianetc...i think  discrimination a part of human nature,and economical-cultural-social,religional,regional reasons feeding this discriminations by we don´t be aware of,so thats so easy to see all sort discriminations on every country  less or more,and i believe thats fix is unconditional respect and to love everything without any reasonAnd to looking for realities on the dusty shelfs of history so wrong while today and tomorrow waiting us with its all charm away from all prejudicies or bad experiences of past...

just because they live in America, they have no right to criticize it right?cool, but I don`t think you can encounter this much of fascism even in those central Asian countries you`re slagging.

  i bet they criticize it 24/7 esp. ros and alameda both of them are professional america haters

 Do they get paid for this???

 im sure they even sell their own souls to do this job.

But they can criticise it BECAUSE they live there. Probably they wouldn´t have many chances to do that if they lived in Islamic countries. They´re free to travel, why don´t they pack their bags and leave they country they hate for a country they might love (even if it means being subordinate to men and wearing a burka). Is that some kind of psycho-masochism? It´s not like they don´t have a choice...

If we based on as strict rules as say Catwoman bases on when determining whether someone is sexist or not I´d say you are a racist. Some of the examples that you give such as categorically not finding black people sexy are proving this point. If you ask me what I think about Halle Berry, I´d say she is probably one of the sexiest persons in the world... Anything that categorically singles out a certain race is a tad racist. Our intention must be removing the roots of racism.

 i dont know, i never managed to understand alameda types. but i truly believe there are lots of masochist women in this world.

you see thats why you dont see here and anywhere any turkish or muslim women criticising their countries, culture and religion.

That is a very rude way to describe someone: Alameda types...

 i absolutely agree with you.

Im a rude, wild, emotional woman, not like alameda type.

i know i could count on your post. lets praise now cuba!

 Excuse me? I have never said I hate the US. I might not like some of the actions taken in the name of the citizens of the US. I am not an America hater, I resent and protest your saying such.

In fact I love (and keep a copy with me at all times of) the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights. What I do criticize is when the Constitution and Bill of Rights are not respected and followed.

Could you try to be a bit relevant. Where is the connection between my liking and admiring Cuban people and your labeling people like Alameda types etc. To say the least, that is not polite at all. Even if I was wrong in the message you are talking about you cannot justify a mistake with another one... Agreed?

Halle Berry is not an African woman, please... you are not proving that you are not racist, you are proving to be sexist VY, by an objectifying, narrow, sexist standards of female ´beauty´. Berry is a hollywood made ´star´ that copies exactly the same beauty ideas as every other woman in hollywood is supposed to and as teh world is trained to find attractive. this has absolutely nothing to do with real women, and especially real black women.

not finding black men sexy, I don´t think that´s racist, because our attitudes towards attractiveness are very much cultural and based on socialization and conditioning. it has nothing to do with racism.

Sorry Vineyards, in this case I don´t agree. Why can´t anyone say they find a certain group not attractive? I´ve heard many men say they don´t like blondes, only brunettes (v.v.). What are they? You probably have your ideas of what is attractive as well, you probably rule(d) out many types of women.

that is quite shallow. I think you are really an example of what you criticize...

 Thanks for this, cat...I was trying to articulate the thought in my head...this is perfect.  I personally gravitate toward a certain look...but I have never felt any contempt for any other look.  I just definately have my preferences.

 look, vineyards, i hate being silenced. i do know that i have a i right to express my thoughts about alameda´s opinions. or you are gonna limit my rights? you yourslef in the past used various types of expressions. then i didnt jump on you. save your politeness for your own majesty.

call me impolite, i prefer being so instead of a perfidious manipulative snake whos more harmful and dangerous (you know whom i mean).

Well, I am not like certain men and I do think I can find a brunette or blonde sexy. I never thought race would be a determining factor. I could fall for a Chinese or an Ethiopian just as well. I am ready for all possibilities

I think the word ´contempt´ is the keyword here. Finding group X not attractive because you hold them in contempt is quite something different than finding group X not attractive just because of different preferences.

 in which way. didnt understand. what is shallow? oh, you are doing something here, you are playing with me at the cost of myself.

 Well, when it comes to the opposite sex....I have very little contempt! 

Sticking to everyday English, I would like to say again that I find people using phrases like Alemada types, Vineyards types etc very shallow and impolite. Excuse me if I hurt your feelings. You are of course free to accept or reject this view of mine. I am not limiting you in any way unless you openly attack people. In my opinion, remarks such as yours can be considered the last stop before a personal attack and they surely invite it.

 All?

 I didn´t say I have NO contempt......there are a few that quite deserve it.....I am not mentioning any names.

 and i keep telling you, that i accept the definitions you called me and it doesnt hurt me. you wish i suppose you are so deep that you often prefer to close your eyes on problems and join with more deep and meaningful words dressing them with philosophic mannerish icing and change the core of forums in order to present yourself so articulate sound and polite.

OK Catwoman, I always though she won the best black actress prize (several times) but anyway I would say the same thing about Beyonce. Hope this time I have hit the target.

Perfidious ???? You have expanded your vocabularly! Congratulations.

Expressing one´s thoughts and committing libel are different. If you have exptapolated to an unfounded and unsubstantiated conclusion, I would be careful.

Free Speech does not give the right to commit defamation of another.

That said, I seem to bother you quite a lot. I´m not sure there is much I can do about that. Sorry if, somehow inadvertently and without intention, I´ve hurt your feelings.

 OMG if the shoe fits take it

+1

It is also against our forum rules, so I would like to ask femme to stop this ridiculous bullying.

We have racism in Lebanon, all sorts of racism. Yes it bothers me and I have to admit that sometimes I have racist thoughts;

Many lebanese dont accept if their son/daughter marry a black or a chinese whereas

they  most likely  accept a white american, a swedish, a british into their family.
 
Also, many lebanese think they are superior to palestinians, syrians, sudanese and

egyptians. This is mostly due to the fact that there is a huge influx of workers from

these countries into Lebanon. The jobs they hold are mainly in construction, trash

collection and in gas stations.

There is a big discrimination also against sri lankians and ethiopians. Most maids in

lebanon come from these two countries.
(recently "envoyee speciale" did a special episode about lebanon "Liban le pays des

esclaves" (slaves in lebanon) concerning the maids condition in lebanon. It was a big

scandale but few weeks later everyone forgot about it and nothing changed)

So basically, yes there is racism in lebanon. The law formally forbids

all sorts of racism but then no one is there to enforce this law.
That was for color and ethnic background.

Regarding religion that is another issue.  There are  18 officially recognized

religious groups in lebanon, 4  Muslim, 12 Christian, 1 Druze, and 1 Jewish. During

the 15 years civil war basically everyone fought against everyone. So religion is a

sensitive issue. Moreover, Lebanese constitution is based on discrimination.
Only a  christian maronite can be a president, only a muslim sunni can be a prime

minister and only a shi´ite can be the speaker of the parliament.
Some groups are classified as a cult and are forbidden, example: jehovah´s witnesses

and mormons.

Homosexuality is considered a crime in Lebanon and it is clearly stated in the

lebanese penal code that male homosexuality along with adultery are prohibited.

In short, yes there is discrimination in Lebanon.  That´s my country and I love it despite its faults.

 Nice post Cedars...and very honest too. Humans, at our most base, are pack creatures, ie we form groups like a pack of wolves or a flock of birds. In ancient times we formed small tribes that were outgrowths of family members. Outsiders were to feared. The process of joining a group was not easy. A lot of blood was shed.

Look at nature. I recently saw a documentary on two orphaned male cheetah cubs. The persons who fostered them tried to introduce them back to the wild, the result being one was killed by other male cheetahs who were afraid of competition. The other had to be brought back into a reserve. Lions also form prides. and so it goes.

Humans have been trying to grow beyond that to realize a larger family. In some ways we have had success, in others we have failed.

 there are perfidious manipulative people, believe it or not. they speak to you nice words right into your face at the same time stab your back. i think i often fall prey of such people.

i do shout out my opinion thus becoming an emotional bully.

 lebanon is a victim of its own hospitable policy. once a paris of middle east, opening gates to palestinians didnt realize that it was opening for own destruction.

the same racism exists in my country and in many many other countries. we just dont talk about it like it is exposed in the west, instead we brush it under the carpet and join the anti-racist campaign held in the west. because our mass media brainwashes us telling that our own countries are perfect and innocent.

 oh, another boring lecture

Although I am off topic discussing the lebanese situation here since the discussion is about racism.

 But I have to comment on the above statement first because I am a supporter of the palestinian cause and second because it wouldnt be fair blaming the palestinians for all the problems in lebanon. Yes lebanon was "switzerland of the middle east" as they used to teach us in school but this was only for tourists.

We have a cosntitution based on discrimination and it was inevitable that one day we will have a war. Lebanese dont share the same idea of "identity".  Some see themselves as arabs, others as pheonicians and they hate arabs, some think that lebanese identity is fake and we all should be syrians, others prefer to be iranians...With 18 different religious groups that have ties to "foreign" countries you can imagine how many identities we have.

Our lebanese identity is manifested and we stand by each other only when it comes to food, tabbouleh & kibbe nayye  

So honnestly I dont think we should blame anyone for our problems and for the destruction of our country, we should only blame ourselves. We will not learn the importance of being Lebanese until we loose the country. who knows what the americans/russians/syrians/israelis/iranians are preparing for us....and we follow like sheeps...sad and hard to admit we are weak.

if racism a sort of discrimination which one of us all innocent and pure about that?i want to repead again,thats a social sickness and big danger when feeded with strong prejudicies...