The Purpose of this message:

"To awaken people to an important problem which I believe may become even more threatening unless we take it seriously."

                                      -------- M E S S A G E --------

The Internet is full of messages a couple of which I am quoting below:

"mohammad (beep) was a beep, and for that he is in beep for eternity, altogether with arafag and many other muslims who in life were also beep."

"Islam is not a race Kermit. Muhammed the beep "prophet" of islam was a beep, beep, beep, beep, beep. Beep is the most intolerant "religion" on the planet. You are a beep if you think islam is a race. Actually, you are probably a muslim beep yourself. Your ban is lame PC beep."

                                     --------END OF MESSAGE ---------

Punchline:

We should not hate other beliefs or ethnicities. We should educate our children accordingly.

Disclaimer:

There are also people cursing Christianity, Hinduism, Jewry, Zoroaster´s religion, Buddhism, Shamanism, Paganism and many more which I am unable to include here. I am not in a position to personally count all those demeaning messages one by one and equally unable to come to an authoritative conclusion as to which group send more and uglier posts. Nevertheless, I believe, Islam is a primary target these days. Although this is just a personal opinion.

Furthermore, I am not an open-minded person at all. On the contrary, many people think I am a problematic member of TLC.

, so what can we do?Thanks to anti-islam propogandists.I suppose we all know these. And whats your aim starting such a thread? I think you can also say the same things by not quoting these disgusting slanders...

Criticism is fine, also about Islam. People who use words like you quoted from some source are not real criticasters, they are just uneducated, ignorant and bad raised idiots.

I agree completely - not sure why you posted this vineyards.  If I came across this I would just ignore it.  The internet is full of bad things written by idiots and worse trying to provoke a reaction.

LIR

I would ignore, you would ignore, everyone would ignore hence everywhere is full of this hatred propoganda.

Site admins must also be ignoring them completely so they stay undeleted for ages.

You are right - of course these type of messages should be deleted as soon as possible.  I suppose though that in some cases the site admin are the same type of people as the people that post   - control of internet content is not great generally is it? 

If you find quotes like the ones Vineyards posted on sites like whitepower.shit, don´t be surprised. You´ll know upfront what you´ll read.

I disagree with your assertion Vineyards.  A forum it may be, but if the examples you give are posted there, then it isn´t a forum "like" this one.

To you it is an assertion but in my opinion it is an everyday reality. With messages being posted freely on Eurosport, Yahoo and you name it, it takes a blindness of a certain kind not to notice them.

In my opinion, there is a deep rooted racist culture underneath the civilized outlook all around Europe (including Turkey).

Are you aware that worldwide organizations like FIFA are striving (at least apparently) to bring an end to racism and Islamophobia. We are not just talking about Serbia or some other smaller country where such thing can easily be attributed to ignorance or to the fact that they are small, closed homogenic communities. We are talking about the UK, the US, Spain and Italy. These countries have this problem in their stadia, subway stations, public forums and wherever people meet one another.

And this whole thing is becoming extremely annoying...

I am not writing this to put the blame on Europe and praise Turkey. In fact, we are also getting more and more racistic. Christian presence in this country has lately become an open target for ultranationalist groups. Assasinations, assaults and threats have increased. Law enforcers are almost openly supporting certain groups committing crimes of this kind on account that they serve the well-being of the country. I detest ultra-nationalism, racims and ethnic hatred of all kinds.

Germany - a country which is supposed to be a center for European civilization was also home to a number of murders committed by neo-Nazists who burned down houses, attacking Turkish people in the streets. There are many more examples proving that mine is not a mere assertion.

Two questions:

1. Who´s to blame for this according to you?

2. What´s the solution to solve it?

I am commenting on your assertion that those forums are "like" this one.  In my opinion they are not. 

Well, why are we deviating from the main subject? Should we start by defining what the Internet is? Regardless of what it is and how it is run,  I am talking about a real problem which needs to be taken seriously. I do know that the Internet is not TLC or vice versa.

Trudy, I developed my post a little after you asked this question...

1. In my opinion the only way such a problem could occur on such a vast scale is through education people receive from their families.

2. The first step is recognizing the problem, the second one is restructuring the education system, the third being revising migration laws.

For example, migration laws give way to illegal presence of foreigners who are utterly deprived financially and socially. The world on the other hand has adopted Churhchill´s idea about weaker nations. Churchill thought mighter countries are entitled to the land and resources of  weaker civilizations and this is exactly what is happening in the world today.

I am tired of repeating the same example but the US citizens hate the guts of the Iraqis as if they weren´t the ones who killed their leader, invaded their country, billed all the expenses to them, seizing all their natural resources, taking independence fighters to Guantanamo where they are routinely tortured (as confessed by a retired General recently). When you browse US sites you can see millions of phrases like this desacrating Islam and Mohammad. If you are seeking solutiýon you should start by voting against this. Writing against it could also serve a good starting point.

In the end, The US foreign policy today is very much in line with the despotic tenets of the Churchilian era.

I can´t really see your point, Vineyards.  The internet is full of all kinds of weird, horrible people from paedofiles to racists and bigots of all kinds.

Are you suggesting there should be censorship?  And why were your examples only about Islam?

Ý agree with both you and Trudy here Vineyards.

Those kind of things represent the communities and not just a matter of some talks on the net..and it goes deeper than just deleting the posts,that will erase the stuff from being available but wont change the mentalities which believe it.

But what can we do about it ?

To change this,you need to change the communities themselves,and that is not an easy task.

What do you think we as individuals an do about it ?!

 Of course it´s a real problem,  I just don´t agree that this site is like those sites.  This site may have it´s disagreements amongst members but it doesn´t allow the type of posts you gave as examples. 

No Vineyards, you don´t need to define what the internet is, I think we all understand that .

Regarding another point, it might have been helpful if you had made your opinion clear in your first post.  Those of us that know of you may have understood the intention of your post but there are thousands of members here (of course I know you know this) who don´t and, for them, it may have been as clear as mud.

Aenigma, when you wake up in the morning, you will probably have a breakfast and I suppose you are not going to eat exactly the same thing. People have different interests and by chance they come accross with different aspects of the web as they browse it. Personally, I hate these kinds of things (you know I am not even a Muslim).

I geniunely admire Jesus Christ and I am not so sure about Mohammad but this is just my idea about those two prophets. Whatever they did thousands of years ago is just speculation and I have nothing to say about them. What I am trying to do is respecting believers idea about their religion. True I don´t like the Feast of Sacrifice since I am sorry about all those rams being victimized but then I am not even a vegeterian so who am I to blame them?

I know there are a couple of bad things to be said about all prophets but I think I´ll keep them to myself to respect those who genuinely believe in something about which I have neither a sound idea or an opinion.

You still don´t get my point!  You gave some examples from forums where people are saying disgusting things about Islam.  There are thousands of those sites I am sure, just as there are thousands of sites where people say the same about Christianity.  There are even WORSE sites that both these subjects.

What is your point?

 Maybe because it will be easier for you to find those kind of things any where and get his idea ?

You still didn´t get my point either. If you remember the breakfast example, you can think of Islam as butter and Christianity as honey. Now, if I am against breakfast, I am against both honey and butter...

P.S. I admire Jesus Christ so much, I have almost all of its LP versions in my collection...

 But all you prove is that you are open minded.  And?  What is your point?

 Actually AE that is not the point,the point is,those things are happening,so can we do anything about them as individuals ?

This is what i wonder ...and will it help ?! 

 Pardon?  I don´t visit (or search) for those kinds of websites, but a quick glance at YouTube comments shows me that muslims post similar things about christians.

Its not nice, nobody advocates it, we all agree it is wrong.

So what is his point?

Well, let me accept that I am not so open minded at all. So, what do you think? Do you think this is not a big problem at all?

 What can I reply Vineyards?  Of course it is a problem- it has been a problem for thousands of years.  Seeing it on the internet changes nothing.  Censorship changes nothing.

 What i understood that he doesnt like those kind of actions ´which i believe we all dont´ and he gave Ýslam just an example

And he wanted to discuss about solutions.

You got another meaning ?

You here wasnt personal addressed just to you

 There is no solution.  Racism and bigotry is inherited, and has been happening since man arrived on this planet

Is it not about freedom of choice? ....... I must say that I have never read "your quotes"or similar before and never expected to read them on this site.....

If you do not like the content of a particular site you do not go there......is it not that simple... if you are suggesting that everything that every single one of us finds offensive or not to our taste should be deleted/censored.......would there be anything left??

I have modified my original post taking into account readers´ objections.

 But still made no mention of the point of your post. 

A-huh, I will add it too.

 How do you justify that comment?

 AE,i guess its a good topic,and worth to be discussed

Do you think taking such things for granted ÝS the solutions ?!

I do not think those kind of ideas suddenly appeared..(And it is nothing with the family education either because education families are able to give is getting less and less)

Most of these things/ideas have always been there..

The only difference is the internet age..

We are able to see what everybody thinks now whereas you would not see some europeans think ´mohammed was this or that´ 20 years ago. 

I think people should get used to it.

Well...say I post "The internet is full of disgusting jokes about blondes".  It is a statement.  What do I expect anyone to do about it?

By clicking on the Align full button

 and a sense of humour

 Errrrrmmmm,buy you a hair dye...mmm burnet or reddish for example ?! lol

Come Onnnn,lighten up

Well, I can do anything to solve the problems of those blondes of course.

 He he he I don´t think you went far enough Vineyards.  I think the original post should be clearly marked and the time of each addendum clearly stated .

The examples, you gave,  of offensive posts were not the issue for me, I just didn´t think the point you wanted to make was clear from the start. 

 And the same goes for bigots I am afraid

Anyway, I think you are trying to start a flame war about injustice to Islam, but I am sorry I won´t take the bait.  There are disgusting comments about every subject on the internet.  There are some crazy people out there, but we only know just HOW many because of the invention of the internet.

Now let´s dye YOUR hair blonde

 Ãm sorry AE,but there ÝS injustice to Ýslam and none can deny it,yes i agree there are injustice to many things too,but with Ýslam it reached the top,in both number of people and the ways they deal with.

Ý personally know many persons whose names are Mohamed and Ahmed when they travel abroad in business trip even for few days,they change their names so none call them by their names in puplic

Of course not in papers,but they ask their friends to call them other names driven from their names.

Ý dont think you have this problem when you travel to other countries,but we do.

Well I have no solution for you canli.  Enjoy being martyrs...

 Ãm sorry,but i dont get it ...

What do you exactly mean ?!

 Meaning, if you want to use this thread to discuss how bad muslims are treated, then do.  I just disagree that you are victimised anymore than others.

 Glad that is what you have meant !

Ý have no intention of using the thread to discuss how bad muslims are treated...the thread meant to discuss the problem as a whole,thats what i understood,and that is also what vineyards tried to say,and he modified his post for that.

Ýt was you who insist on making it about Ýslam and Muslims,and you didnt let it go.

Ýf you reread  my previous posts,i was wondering how ,and what can we do as individuals to solve it as a universal problem not as muslim´s

But again,you kept kicking it to Ýslam ground ! For ?!

groups of  "anti whatevers" or "whatever phobes" have always existed but the world is ever shrinking and these groups have more opportunity to be visible.  Air travel has given us closer neighbours and modern media technology has made one country´s problem a problem to be shared by the world community.  Communication technology and the internet has provided every individual with the opportunity to be heard. 

As adults we can choose to ignore authors of the comments Vineyards posted and not give them  a platform.

What I think is a problem is the grooming of young impressionable minds or unstable minds.  I´m sure there are sites out there that are more subtle in the way they put across their unsavoury views. 

In the home, parents need to be vigilant regarding their children´s internet activity and they also need to be proactive in having conversations about social, political, global issues etc.

 + 1000

+1000.

 Ã think that is part of the problem as well

Many parents dont have time for their children anymore,they work to provide their needs,and hardly have time to sit and talk with them,let alone have conversations.

 I think you didn´t read Vineyards opening post then.... it said

And this is the night PT gets +1000 from me and the Aenigma at the same time..it is a very rare occasion..cheers to that

 Are you both trying to groom me for something?      

+ (√2x * y) * ⅜

 So ?

Ý read it and considered it part of his example too

But the main idea of the thread was how,what to do about those kind of actions,and that worth the stress

Thats why i didnt discuss it,not agree nor disagree with the example

Yes,we as Muslims have problems

But we will be also having them as long as the base is same.

As you said,the problem accured since man has arrived on Earth,today are Muslims,Ýslam,yesterday was another things and tomorrow also who knows

But i think we have moved a bit far from being cavemen so we can have things even a little bit differently to the better.

And if we can do anything about it ,im sure would be glad to do it as individual.

 Well I think the discussion was going along the right lines then....until you started discussing how badly muslims are treated

Simply not true.  I feel the UK is a target too, and I am aware that there are many countries where it would be unsafe for me to visit. I dont complain about it because I UNDERSTAND THE REASONS WHY.

 Me ?!

Whatever,our posts are there and its not really important to discuss who has started what!

Not the point,the point is here we reached something

Ý wont discuss or compair situation if its true or not...again not the point

The point is...Are you happy about it ?!

What can we do to have things differently ?

Even on the long run..what can we do about it as individuals ?

1. Of course I am not happy with it.

2. If someone knew the answer, it would be done.

3. As individuals?  Only by teaching our children differently.

4. I am bored, goodnight

 You have edited your post,and taking us to another point.

Ýf the UK withdraw from Ýraq,do you think you would be more safer then ?

Edited: Night

 Yes I think it would be a little better....but we will always be hated by the east for being evil, capitalist imperialists.

 A bit off,off the topic

Ýs it happy with it...or happy about it ?

Both can be used in exchange for the other ?!

AE was telling me to stop making this western-eastern argument a few days ago on a thread. see, what I`m saying is true, this concept of the west is something Europeans use only when it suits their purpose

Yes Tam, because I hear it on this site so often from you all

I did amend my post straight away though..... because I don´t want to use that term.

 Perhaps I should have replied more fully "I about not happy WITH the situation"

Offffffffff

it`s good that you eventually saw the light we need a theard on orientalism and ocidentalism asap!

 Well do it.... I won´t be joining your discussion

 Ha ha haa,you think !

The east is turning with full degree to capitalism,and its not easy process,many people getting under feet now,so i dont think they hate you for that...they just hate their conditions .

They hate you for the extra burden that you add to their backs with the wars in a way they cant take it any further.

They have their homes and worried about their livings,day to day living,now they are worried about their homes also...!

yeah I know you call that thing "political correctness". in other words, you`re not telling what you`re thinking of, or hiding your thoughts just to make sure people think you`re polite. that`s so typical to westerners. (Occidentalism 101)

 They hate ME for all this?  Me personally? 

Well, dont complain that the "west" treat you like terrorists then, because you are no better than them for judging people wrongly eh? 

So what is the solution to CHANGE this bad opinion you have Canli (we are back to the main topic now )

 You are wrong actually Tam

Although....I do realise that is a concept you are unable to comprehend

 ehhhmmm ehmmmm

Well,i about  to say you are making it easy NOT with that order of the sentence   

Offffffffffffffff

Ok with is better there

 Ã take it you are not serious about that question ?! yes ?

Obviously its not you personally ...GOD

Errrmmm,which main topic you mean ?  

you`re right, I`m not into the political correctness crap. I don`t mind speaking out what is in my mind.

 Me too.... but just because I have no strong feelings against the Islam (anymore!) or any part of the world, you think I am hiding something?

ME ? ME personally ?!!!

Then its mutual and you judge people wrongly too,eh ?

no I was just referring to the westerners(as you call it) in general

 Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!  It seems this is MY night for being misunderstood!!! goodnight!

 Well it is good to know how you judge me (in general)

Goodnight

 Seriously,i think great deal of it falls upon parents shoulders,as you and PT said,and that would be the solution for the comming generations.

As for us and for current time,i think it falls upon the educated persons shoulders who feels it.

Lots of educated ones dont give s**t about it,or about anything doesnt relate to them what so ever.

Exchange ideas,open those sort of topics.

You may hate me for mentioning this  but me for example as a muslim,i could use the religion,the ayat,verses,orders that i know when discussing with other muslims to show that its not away from religion to accept everyone as he,she is

Use logic,and any tools you find it more suitable in discussion with others,to make them listen first,and open their mind for you,and not force them to listen because that will drive them away.

What i mean,i believe everyone can decide what is the best way to use that  would be more appropriate with his,her community.

Ým catching a cold and this is not making me any good...

Ý need to clear my mind to get some ideas

Mines too lol

Was just kidding with you using your words too

Night Caným

 Ok here is my reason for not liking the terms "east" and "west".  I don´t see how you can group these countries as a whole.  I don´t feel any afinity or similarities with many EU countries and in particular with the US. Similarly the "east" encompasses so many diverse countries, some of which I feel more afinity than others.

HOWEVER, I used it in my two posts because I hear it so often here.  You talk about the "imperalistic west" etc, and I wanted to make my point about HOW I AM JUDGED as (in your words) a "westerner".

There is no hidden agenda or political correctness.

Nothing is wrong with political correctness to be honest..

However if people chose to be not correct ie I am racists etc..it is up to them...

Then they get the right response..

If the ideas they express are racists or politically not correct, they are treated the way they deserve..

I have read quotes like Vineyards posted many times before. Probably there are so many for several reasons, I think society has hardened the last decades and the concept of freedom of speech gives some people the idea that they can say anything they want in any words they choose (which is, in my country, not true), but besides that the internet just gives more opportunity to read, that fact doesn´t solely mean that it happens more. Almost every time I´ve read them, they were on ´normal´ sites and I warned the site admins, posts were than deleted. A few times (mostly because someone pointed my attention to it combined with some actual news) I looked on whitetrash-sites, not because I think like these morons do - on the contrary - but just to know what exactly they say in what words, I can´t beat my enemy if I don´t know what my enemy says. On these sites it´s useless to warn site admins because they are thinking the same as the people who post. However, in the Netherlands we have several possibilities to notify anti-racism/discrimination bureaus and I did. I think partly these texts are unforgiveble and one should take action and partly one should shrug and continue with their life, as Lesluv says ´if everything you don´t like is deleted, there won´t be anything left´.

 I´m not good in math.... how many times you approve?

As usual on TC everything spins around poor Muslims and misinterpreted Islam basing on what some undereducated punks have written in a forum making use of freedom od speech. Much as I disaprove of such style and "logic" I believe in freedom to criticise ALL religions. Vineyards gave examples of anti-Islamic posts, the Internet is full of anti-Christian, anti-American and anti-everything posts as well. How can you introduce censorship to the Internet? How can you introduce censorship for something that is not illegal? Sites containing illegal messages might be sued but the trouble is laws change from country to country. What Turkish government might consider a reason to close a site may be perceived differently in another country. Muslims get angry seeing Islam turned into Pisslam, Christians will be offended reading they´re cannibals. Muslims hate the US for entering into Iraq, Americans hate those Muslims for 9/11. It´s not like Islam is exercised as a religion of peace and it´s not like foreign policy of th US is a peaceful one. For me they´re both worth each other. When I read  bigoted posts like the ones Vineyards quoted I am not moved becausehow can a simpleton who wrote that move me? If you´re not into arguments but into insults and mockery then what you write about something shows what kind of person you are. Whether you´re a Muslim hating "west" or a "westerner" hating Islam until you can speak in a civilised manner without casting curses, you´re not worth attention.

What makes me laugh is how easily people use such posts to make martyrs of themselves. If I followed that train of thought, every boorish post that discriminates women would have to cause my outrage and every joke about blondes would be a slap in my face. People lack distance and critical thinking. And for such people am I more sorry than for those stupid hate-mongers.

Great post as always DD

 Wonderful post DD!

If the people who responded to my original post for what it really is, this whole thing would not turn into a see-saw game like it always happens. Whenever someone brings up something like this, the usual persons begin accusing him/her of trying to provoke others to start yet another flame war. No one questions why everyone is so ready to start one, how come they have all this potential. This is not a night club where soldiers routinely fight with one another. If we are pissed off so easily then we should question ourselves in the first place. This whole  East-West conflict is in your minds really. Don´t look for it elsewhere. It is in the iron-clad stereotypes that were injected into your minds.

For my own part, I have no problems with either West or East. I also believe these are very generalistic definitions. There is East in West and vice versa. My problem is limited to those disparaging, demeaning and rude statements which have become quite rampant lately.

Daydreamer says she is against censorship. She just does not know how impossible this is. Do you fancy a chaotic freedom where terrorists, rapists, child abusers and perverts of all sorts voice their ideas without worrying about the consequences?

Let us not fool ourselves, there is and there must be censorship. For example, I am also against those extremely liberal British or Dutchman asking for a weed break in the middle of an online computer game without ever  caring he might be arousing an interest in his 19 year old opponent.

I also tend to believe that there are people among law enforcers monitoring the Internet establishing friendships with users in order to trace criminal connections. The Internet may not appear to be censored in your country.... Well, there are ways to find this out but you wouldn´t want to.

And no, I am not a cop...

 i reckon you wouldnt be so enthusiastic if this wasnt about muslims

 i disagree with you.

20 years ago people knew nothing about islam, it was one of those exotic religions, until 9/11.

but now, people are learning more and more, mainly thanks to internet. people started reading quran and hadiths and giving their opinions.

 a fantastic statement!

I disagree with you too. Christian and Muslim civilizations have known each other for at least one thousand years. I am copying the entire list of crusades many of which were fought between the Turks and European forces. These crusades serve the basis for East-West enmity.

Excerpts from Wikipedia (Crusades)

• 2.1 First Crusade 1095-1099
  • 2.1.1 Siege of Jerusalem
  • 2.1.2 Crusade of 1101
• 2.2 Second Crusade 1147–1149
• 2.3 Third Crusade 1187–1192
• 2.4 Fourth Crusade 1202–1204
• 2.5 Albigensian Crusade
• 2.6 Children´s Crusade
• 2.7 Fifth Crusade 1217–1221
• 2.8 Sixth Crusade 1228–1229
• 2.9 Seventh Crusade 1248–1254
• 2.10 Eighth Crusade 1270
• 2.11 Ninth Crusade 1271–1272
• 2.12 Northern Crusades (Baltic and Germany)
• 2.13 Other crusades
  • 2.13.1 Crusade against the Tatars
  • 2.13.2 Crusades in the Balkans
  • 2.13.3 Aragonese Crusade
  • 2.13.4 Alexandrian Crusade
  • 2.13.5 Hussite Crusade
  • 2.13.6 Swedish Crusades

Could your ealier post about US citizens (all 300+ million people, including 8+ million American Muslims and 3+ million American-Arabs) hating the guts of Iraqis be considered one of your iron-clad stereotypes that was injected into your mind? You´re right, question yourself first.

 i just dont understand why do you love censorship so much? why cant you stand other opinions?

btw, i completly agree with the opinions above you quoted.

i personally received hundreds of more disgusting comments from muslims (not on tc) where they threaten me describing how they would rape me (my whole family) and then torture me etc etc.

meanwhile i dont receive any life threatening comments or in that disgusting manner from christians even though i also fiercely debate with them on christianity.

vineyards, thats not simply true.

those who knew about islam were those who studied the oriental countries and did research works and wrote books.

people in europe knew nothing and still know almost nothing about islam, most of them simply dont care for any religion at all.

muslims too know nothing about christianity, all they know about it is crusades and a hatred towards christians.

vineyards, its no good to claim untrue things as true on the basis of a small group who had some ideas on both religions.

anything else except crusades? you are just proving my statement. the muslim world knows nothing about christianity except crusades.

and im so glad the crusades stopped the islamic flood, otherwise we would still be in bazars selling rugs trying to fly on them.

Thank you for personally accusing me. The problem is you are not making a point. You seem to be suggesting that I am making false generalizations... Well, if I said, 300 million Americans plus all those minorities you named are in peaceful terms with the Iraqis that would be another generalization. Sometimes, we need to base our arguments on what we observe. It was a mere observation nothing more. Having been here for some time, I know how easily people turn this into an East-West conflict.

I am beginning to think, you take offense so easily.

Femmous who built the entire foreign policies of both Western and Eastern countries we are talking about? We are talking about the actions of governments in relation to one another not what some taxi driver rants about Islam. 

Now in the intelligent point of view in Europe is pro-freedom, individualism and consumption. Policies are being shaped to improve society in these respects. Therefore, no matter who you are you become a part of it.  It is no surprise that there is usually a common foreign enemy who can be cursed freely.

If your leader calls you to unite against a common enemy telling lies about the intentions of this make-believe opponent, all the red necks in the country turn this into physical acts of violence against muslims.

Dear Femmous, you are wrong again. You should study history. Just check out the year when the crusades end, that marks the beginning of invasion of the Balkans up-to Vienna by Turks. 

The Purpose of this message:

"To awaken people to an important problem which I believe may become even more threatening unless we take it seriously."

Punchline:

We should not hate other beliefs or ethnicities. We should educate our children accordingly.

Disclaimer:

There are also people cursing Christianity, Hinduism, Jewry, Zoroaster´s religion, Buddhism, Shamanism, Paganism and many more which I am unable to include here. I am not in a position to personally count all those demeaning messages one by one and equally unable to come to an authoritative conclusion as to which group send more and uglier posts. Nevertheless, I believe, Islam is a primary target these days. Although this is just a personal opinion.

End of edited vineyards message....

 my sources arent turkish government school texts

and thank God it ended up in vienna.

but who could have guessed that they would invade europe anyway turning it into slums (as tami describes).

Maybe I take offense easily or maybe, if I see, that as an American, I´m being falsely generalized into a category, I might want to stand up for myself and correct some perceptions. I´m not asking you to lie and say Americans are in peaceful terms with anybody. But surely you can agree that in a population of that size you´d encounter a wide range of opinions ranging from despicable ones that you quoted originally, from those who do hate the guts of the Iraqis, to those who hate the guts of the US government for what they did to the Iraqis. And you´ll probably find those who don´t care either way. If you choose to look only for those opinions that support your point of view, your point of view, by definition, is going to be biased. I wouldn´t react to your post if you said "some" or even "most" US citizens as I´m sure there are those who do feel exactly they way you describe. And that´s the point I´m making. Be objective.

My post was not meant as a personal accusation, it was meant to point out lack of consistency between the two posts (at least in my perception). I´m sorry if I came across too personal.

 You have lost control again.

 You think so? What she said I recognise in my country.

Lucky you are not in a barbaric country...

 Many people won´t agree with you....

 The Dutch scare me! 

 Most of the time we´re quite harmless.

 you get so furious when someone dares to disagree with you. grow up.

no wonder you love censorship. you simply cant stand opinions other than yours.

Is this turning into a street fight as usual? I bet you´ll give me a good smack on the nose now...

Femme please modify this post - you are calling Vineyards a liar here.  He didn´t state a fact he said ´if your leader calls you to fight a common enemy´. 

wow, not a nice comment at allllllllllllll!

Really, im sorry im disgusted that people think this way....

I guess peoples true traits really show only in certain times

And about this topic-

People ahve the freedom to say whatever theyw ant abothu anythign taht they wnat and its between thema nd themselves, its by vthe way you were raised and what you were taught to respect , respect people for who they are not what they are

And abotut he Isalm point, It really did increase after 9/11, i think before that people respected that Islam was a religion, even if theyd dint really know anythign about it but they respected that these people ahd their "beliefs" and now, well, now is now and theres no need to say anythign!

But MY opinion is taht people are ebcoming more racist and judgemental nd not just abotu religion

Now femme if you mind, ill go rub my magic lamp and wish for somethign (guess what)

 give me a break LIR.

what he wrote is a complete lie.

where do you see or hear that the european leaders call for a common enemy and the people will follow them?

point me any enemy that the european leaders called for? who are they?

vineyards just make up things.

 im here to help you to come out from your bubble world.

 im not here to write nice comments to please you. go and rub, maybe an oil will struck out?

Vineyards wasn´t stating a fact, he was making a supposition.  The point is you are always calling people liars and they don´t like it.  It´s a ´negative remark about another person´s character´.  There are politer ways of making your point but you don´t seem to want to use them. So I am going to delete your post.

I have just received a pm from a member who is very offended by the quoted comments about the prophet Mohammed and so I have deleted the original post.

As I said in my last post, I was asked to delete the original post in this thread.  Unfortunately I didn´t realise that doing this would result in deletion of the entire thread.  This was not my intention - I only found out this morning and I apologise for the mistake.

However - on discussion with other admin/mods, it has been decided that this thread should be locked on the grounds that it is becoming too inflammatory.