I have a question about different ways of expressing necessity. In the example below which ones would express the necessity the most and which ones the least? Are they interchangeable?

Eve gitmeliyim.

Eve gitmem lazým.

Eve gitmem gerekiyor.

Eve gitmek zorundayým.

Is gerekmek usually used in the -iyor tense?

I also have a question about the first sentence.

Eve gitmeliyim.

I know it can be translated as "I have to/must go home" or "I should go home".

How do I convey the difference in meaning in Turkish. For example, how do I differentiate between "I have to go home" (and it´s an absolute necessity) and "I should go home" (it´s getting late, I need to be up early, I should go to bed now, but not a huge deal if I don´t).

Thank you.

Hi Melek,

You are asking to transcribe nuances of semantics... And, unfortunately there is no answer for that.

Eve gitme denotes the concept of going home.

Eve gitmeli denotes the general/vague concept of how one should/must go home.

Eve gitmeliyim is just the conjugated form in the first person singular.

Lazim is a word borrowed from Arabic and is used in combination. Turkish has a tendency to form such structures with loan words from Farsi and Arabic.

Eve gitmem denotes the general concept of going home in the first person singular. When you add lazim to it, you indicate the necessity in the first person singular. Lazim means necessary or needed.

The use of gerek is very similar to that of lazim. It is a combinational form.

Eve gitmem lazim & Eve gitmem gerek are more or less the same. The difference is that you can also say something like Eve gitmem gerekiyor, but you cannot say Eve gitmem lazimiyor. Gerek is conjugateable but lazim is not.It is often the case that loan words from Arabic or Farsi are auxilaries and are not conjugated and that words of Turkis origin are conjugated and compounded.

Zor, as a word, denotes difficulty or hardship. When it is used in a compound form in the sense of Eve gitmek zorundayim it means that you have to go home, which indirectly implies that you are in the hardship, and hence, necessity of going home. Along the same lines as lazim, zor is also not conjugatable. You cannot say something like Eve gitmek zoruyorum. Unlike saying Eve gitmek lazim, you also cannot say Eve gitmek zor. Eve gitmem lazim & Eve gitmem zor have completely different meanings, for example. Eve gitmem lazim would mean I have to go home, whereas Eve gitmem zor would denote that it is somewhat hard for you to go home.

I know that my reply will confuse you and will not be much help. However,please keep in mind that these structures are idiomatic and their uses are not perfectly regular. In most cases, they are used interchangeably, and the shades of meaning depends more on the context than semantics.

Just as you cannot easily translate a sentence such as I should say so into Chinese or Japanese without getting tangled up in context, it is impossible to find the English equivalents of the phrases you inquired about. In one sense, they are almost all the same. In another, the meaning depends on the context with minute shades of difference. If you are studying Turkish, don´t worry about their differences too much. Learn to recognize them, and the general concepts they denote. Use them either correctly or incorrectly. People will still get what you are trying to say.

Thank you Cynicmystic for taking the time to explain and for making the explanation so in-depth, I do appreciate it. 

It looks like I´m splitting hairs then, aren´t I?

I think this is really worthwhile.   I wonder if you can produce degrees of increasing urgency with either. 

"Evime gitmem çok lazim" or

"Evime gitmem tüm gerekdir"

"çok gerek"  sounds unatural to me, but I am not a native speaker, I hope someone will comment.

Actually, both sentences sound somewhat unnatural to the native speaker.

You could certainly say Eve gitmem cok lazim, but I highly doubt if a native speaker would chose this. Instead, you could indicate the urgency by saying Eve cok acil gitmem lazim. Acil, an Arabic loan-word, means urgent, and Acilen means urgently. Notice how the position of cok in front of lazim in your sentence changed and attached itself to acil to indicate a sense of urgency.

Along the same lines, you could also say:

Acilen eve gitmem lazim.

Acilen eve gitmem gerekiyor.

Eve acilen gitmem lazim.

Cok acele eve gitmem lazim.

Cok acele eve gitmem gerekiyor.

They all serve to convey the message that you need to go home urgently. You can create a degree of urgency by the tone of your voice, and by putting stress on the words Acilen, Acele or Cok.

Eve gitmem tum gerekdir is not correct. Along the same lines, Eve gitmem gerekdir is also incorrect. The word Gerek is often used as it is or is conjugated with -yor.

Eve gitmem gerek. I need to go home.

Eve gitmem gerekiyor. I need to go home.

This is great, thank you.

 Somehow I have ´missed´ to see the use of ´Ãžart´ > which according to David & Cellen Pollard ´Turkish´ p121, is described as ´... an absolute necessity´ !!

Thus:  Gelmeniz lazim.  [You must come]

           Þart mý?             [Is it absolutely necessar?] 

           Mecbur.             [ Compelled]

Both Þart and mecbur are Arabic/Farsi/Urdu which convey an  ´absence of alternative´ > a state of helplessness. and compulsion.

Can ´Mecbur-um´ [like meþgul-um] be used?

Hence, would ..., ´ Eve gitmalýyým Ã¾art´  >>  or >>  ´Eve gitmem olmasi gerek [or mecburu]´

be linguistically acceptable in conveying the intended meaning?

Tazx1

Thanks for bringing this up, I wasn´t familiar with these words. 

I´ve looked up the word mecbur in a dictionary (www.tureng.com) and it gives the expression:

bir þeyi yampaya mecbur olmak -  be obliged to do something

So it looks that when it comes to mecbur, you can say -a mecburum to convey "I´m obliged to, I´m forced to ... etc"

I´m hoping that some native speakers/experienced learners will be kind enough to provide some examples of how this is actually used. And also how to use "þart".

What I´m also wondering about is, how would it be translated when the object is a noun or pronoun. For example "Sana mecburum" - would it be "I´m obliged to you"? What meaning does that phrase convey?

Thank you.

quoting melek74

>

I´m hoping that some native speakers/experienced learners will be kind enough to provide some examples of how this is actually used. And also how to use "þart".

What I´m also wondering about is, how would it be translated when the object is a noun or pronoun. For example "Sana mecburum" - would it be "I´m obliged to you"? What meaning does that phrase convey?< [end quote]

The syntax for Þart is exactly as for Gerek & Lazim> (Stem+me+person) ´Ãžart´ eg.,

Gel+me+m = Gelmem lazim, Gelmem gerek, gelmem þart   [this I can swera on a stack of ...]

Saat sekizte iþte olmam þart > [I simply have to got be at home at eight o´clock]

Saat sekizte iþte olmam lazim > [I need to be at work at eight o´clock]

As for ´Obliged´ >> ahmmmm!!  As far as I know ´Zorunda kalmak´ means to be obliged eg.,

Þeyleri satin almakten parasi odeme zorunda kaldim [I was obliged to pay after purchasing the goods]

As far as I know ´mecbur´ [Urdu/Farsi - majboor] signifies not an obligation rather a position of helplessness a  person ends up facing.  Angel, I don´t have enough grammar to blind you with technical terminology, but in English, one would say ... I had no opotion but to ... [follow a course of action].  This sense of lack of option is conveyed by the word ´Mecbur´ >> to my knowledge [which is based purely on Urdu/Farsi usage].

Where are cynicmystic and uzun_hava?

tazx1

Thanks Man

So mecbur is more about being compelled or forced to do something. Still how would it play with "sana mecburum" - I´m compelled to you?

Mecbur & Þart are both loan words from Arabic.

Þart is related to the word shariah with which some English speakers are familiar. The Shariah Law in Islamic countries is related to the word Sart, which becomes Þeriyat in Turkish.

Þart can take various degrees of necessity depending on the context, or may have nothing whatsoever with necessity. Here are some examples:

In a business context, where two parties are negotiating...

Þartlar nedir? / What are the terms (of the agreement)?

Þartlariniz nedir? / What are your conditions/terms.

Anlasmanin þartlari nedir? / What are the terms & conditions in the contract?

Bu þartlar altinda teklifinizi kabul etmiyorum. / Under these circumstances/conditions, I am rejecting your offer.

Þartlar pek uygun degil. / The terms are not really favourable.

In none of the above given examples is it possible to use mecbur instead of þart.

Reprimanding a friend for being rude...

Boyle kirici konusman þart mi? Insanlarin duygularina biraz saygi goster. / Do you really have to speak this harsh? Try to show some consideration for others´ feelings.

The inconsiderate asshole responds...

Þart arkadas. Ben icimden geleni soylerim. / Yes. I speak my mind regardless.

Boyle kirici konusmaya mecburmusun? Insanlarin duygularina biraz saygi goster. / Do you really have to speak this harsh? Try to show some consideration for others´ feelings.

Mecburum arkadas. Ben icimden geleni soylerim. / Yes. I speak my mind regardless.

Some other examples:

From mecbur, the word mecburiyet is derived, which is actually mecbur-i-et. Mecbur-i is a Farsi form with the -i denoting "of" as in the sense of "being of necessity/obligation." The addition of et(mek) is just one of the way Turkish naturalizes foreign loan words. hence, mecburiyet means something along the lines of being obligated or being necessary. There is no word as þartiyet.

Mecburiyetten yaptim. / I did it out of necessity. I had to. I had no choice. 

You cannot say þarttan yaptim, for example.

Mecburieytten hala evliler. Cocuklar var diye. Yoksa kiz onu sevmiyor. / They are still married (haven´t been divorced) out of necessity. Because of the kids. Otherwise, she doesn´t really love him.

You cannot say þarttan evliler, for example.

Iskence sirasinda gercegi soylemeye mecbur oldum. / I was forced to tell the truth under torture.

Iskence sirasinda beni gercegi soylemeye mecbur ettiler. / They forced me to tell the truth under torture.

You cannot say þart oldum or þart ettiler.

Boyfriend tries to lure his girl to stay over...

Eve gitmen þart mi? Kalsana. / Do you really have to go home? Why don´t you stay?

Eve gitmeye mecbur musun? Kalsana. / Same meaning.

She would not say þart, but would use either mecburum or eve gitmem lazim/gerek.

Bu aksam eve donmem þart. Babam valla kemiklerimi kirar. / I really have to be home tonight. My father would literally break my bones (if I don´t).

She wouldn´t say bu aksam eve donmem mecbur.

Bu aksam eve donmeye mecburum. Babam kemiklerimi kirar valla. / Same meaning.

ESL class...

Bu cumle icin gecmis zamani kullanmaya mecbur muyum? / Do I have to use the past tense in this sentece?

Bu cumle icin gecmis zamani kullanmak (kullanmam) Ã¾art mi? / Same meaning.

Vulgar slang...

Þart olsun bir yakaliyayim kemiklerini kiricam o itin. / I swear I am gonna break his bones when I get a hold of him.

You wouldn´t use mecbur olsun in this context.

I hope this helps a bit.

http://www.seslisozluk.com/?word=mecbur&ssQBy=0    Check out the Turkish-Turkish tranlations.   There are a lot of ´-miþ´ used to describe it (heh heh).    But yeah, it seems like it means "compelled to you" and maybe not in a nice way.  

e.g.

"Zorlu bir iþe giriþmiþ"

There is no such a thing as Sana mecburum. It is ungrammatical and does not really exist other then in pop and arabesk songs.

You could say:

 Bunu yapmaya mecburum. / I have to do this

Bunu yapmaya mecbur musun? / Do you have to do this

But, never Sana mecburum.... get rid of that phrase. It scratches the ears

Good information. Thanks.

and also in a famous poem called Ben Sana Mecburum by Atilla Ýlhan=)

just wanted to point out=P

Ben sana mecburum bilemezsin
Adýný mýh gibi aklýmda tutuyorum

you are a must for me, you never know
I keep your name in my mind as a nail

Ýþte görüyorsunuz, Attila Ýlhan´Ã½n bu þiiri Türkçeden Ýngilizceye tam çevrilemiyor.

Thank you all for the explanations and examples. You guys rock!

 It seems to ME, tha ´Mecbur´ - [as with meþgul] - is one of those rare foreign word which can have a personal suffix directly added to it.  So Mecburu-um [I am helpless, I am compelled] seems a viable proposition.  But ´Sana mecbur-um´ makes no sense!!

But such foregin words [þart, lazim, mecbur] can not conjugated [or is it declined] as regular Turkish verbs like ´Gerekmek´... they will need a suitable auxiliary verb!!

I suppose one could say ´sana mecbur olamk isteyorum´   [olamk isteyorum being verbs]

Mecbur signifies ´not an obligation´ but a state of ´being helpless´ [one can evade an ´obligation´ immoral though it may be, but one cannot avoid ´being helpless´] ... so even in English one cannot meaningfully say, ´I being [mecbur-um]compelled to you [sana]´

´Sana, mecbur-um, anlatiyorum´ - may make sense [I am explaining to you (that) I am helpless]

Exactly like one could NOT say, ´sana meþgulum´  - there is no verb in this sentence, Angel.  Without a verb one cannot have a sentence.  ´Mecburum and meþgulum´ are [I presume] adjectives, not even adverbs. 

´Mecburum olurken/durumda ben tufekle ateþ ettim´ 

´Mecburum, heyvana öldurdum´

´Mecbur idim, odemeden dukkandan çiktim´

[Excuse my Turkish]

It is very helpful to struggle with these words as it establishes ones own comprehension.  But please note that I am only speculating ... as far as Turkish is concerned!!!!!!!!!!! lol 

PS even in Urdu/Farsi ´Majboor´ cannot be used without a verb because it is not a verb by itself.  If one needs to imply, ´I wish to compel you´  ... in Urdu/Farsi we will have to say in (Farsi) ... ´Ãžoma [you], majboor hwaham [I am going to]kard [make]´   ´Majboor´ being only a NOUN - like happy, sad.  In Urdu we will say, ´Meiyn {I} Apko {you} majboor {compel} karoonga {will do}.

Don´t hesitate to send me a priv mesaj till we clear it up.

Tazx1

Thank you Taz

I asked the question because I saw that on google, there are some links with "sana mecburum", for example:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1059253/ - apparently it´s a title of a movie. I just couldn´t make sense of it based on the dictionary definition of the word.

I really appreciate yours and everyone else´s explanation, I think I´m gonna steer clear of saying sana mecburum any time in the near future lol.

Happy Valentine´s Day!

If you understood - I am very happy but equally surprised ´cos I made several ´dyslecsic´ typing errors.

But needs that I thank you.  It has cleared up many anciliary tpoics in my own mind.  Yaþa, yaþa lol.

Tazx1