Hello!

I have a question for those educated enough to admit fluency in both English and Turkish. How do you express yourself in each of these languages, and which do you find easier to use? Do you resort to your native language whenever you´re angry or frustrated? I´m very curious to find out what you all think.

Thanks

I was born in Turkey. So, my mother tongue is Turkish. Howevevr, I have spent most of my life outside Turkey, and feel more comfortable writing in English.

It is easier for me to express abstract thoughts in English because the vocabulary is there. On the other hand, I revert to Turkish in the heat of the moment during sex. I dont know why. In the same way, if I am really pissed off, I usually curse in Turkish. But, then I curse in English, too.

That´s very interesting! Thanks for your answer . You mention you find it easier to express abstract thoughts in English - this is actually what I´m most curious about.

I doubt most people have a problem with explaining that they´re happy, sad, curious, etc in any language they´re fluent in, but to explain something with a certain level of intricacy is another matter. Much in the way I´m building these sentences as I type them, I´m able to convey a certain image in the mind of the reader about many things including who I am and what I´m trying to say.

Not only my choice of vocabulary, but also the way in which I phrase and build sentences can help me better communicate a topic, and even help me to manipulate the reader into thinking certain things and having certain perceptions of me or my topic.

I love writing because of all of this intricacy and because of the control I have over my readers (in a good way! ), but I´m only fluent in English. I was just wondering if there is a certain level of difficulty in doing this in other languages, particularly Turkish.

Thanks again.

Whether people agree with the statement that English has become the lingua franca or not, we can all agree that it has become the language of international business and scientific publications. As a result, most innovations and new theories carry names in English and are offen borrowed by other languages.

I find that there are things one can express in Turkish and cannot really translate into English, and vice versa. I guess this must be the same for all languages. In a certain way, I find English to be easier to use in expressing myself simply because of its vast vocabulary, which offers the writer a variety of options.

I feel that modern Turkish is in a transitional period, and has lost much from its Ottoman heritage. Spoken language is lovely to my ears, but I hate business letters or legal documents written in Turkish, and find them to be utterly annoying. They annoy me for the reason that they employ vocabulary that is no longer recognized or generally used by the majority of the people.

In the Ottoman period, although Turkish was definetly spoken, the administrative lingo was a mixture of Farsi, Arabic and Turkish. Within the empire, many tongues were spoken. Then the empire collapsed and modern Turkey came into existance. Following the langugage reform, Turkish people became literally alien to their own linguistic heritage. In my opinion, this was a loss. Today, most turks are unable to read anything that was written before the 1920s. There are very few translators talented and knowledgable enough to translate older literary works. Yet, the now obsolete vocabulary still lingers on. People recognize the words, but often do not know what they mean. I am not suggesting that Turkish should have continued to be written in the Arabic cursive. But, it is a shame that children are not taught at school how to read this script. One could learn how to read Arabic cursive script in less than 4 weeks.

Very good thread, interesting posts. Thank you!

 Yes and facinating to read about cynicmystics sex life!!

 I´m intrigued myself

Seriously, this is really an interesting thread. Being bi-lingual myself (although not fluent in Turkish, at least for a <long> while) I´m curious, do you get the the point that you don´t know what language you´re speaking? Sometimes I had that happen to me, usually when I was tired or have just woken up, that I was convinced I was speaking English to an English-speaker, but I was actually speaking Polish and it took me a while to realize why they are staring at me and not saying anything (and speaking louder didn´t help either lol). Or when you speak Turkish do you find yourself mixing English words into your speech? Or do you use English/Turkish words with grammar structure from the other language? I´m also wondering, do you find that certain words, that are emotionally charged in your own language, lose that emotional load when translated? For example, for me to say "I love you" in English, does not produce the same emotional state as saying "Kocham Cie" in Polish. Same with swearing, somehow saying f* in English just doesn´t do the job as well as Polish Kur....

Interesting thread and what a coincidence.  I was out with several friends last night and two of the group were having a discussion.  It was interesting to listen because they flitted between English and Gujarati, even within a sentence.  I asked them about it and they said they even did it at home, where the mother tongue is Gujarati.  They use words that come most easily to the mind, even mid sentence!

Thanks for the thread

Unfortunately I´m not bi-lingual. I cannot speak Turkish more than just a few words/sentences and I can speak English at reasonable level (and German at little less) but I am searching for words too many times. Like Melek said, the most difficult things to say for me are the words that express feelings. Even words less important than ´I love you´ do not have the same meaning in English as they have in my own: friend for instance, it is used to easily/soon in English while in Dutch it is an exclusive word for much more than someone you know (a little) or who you´ve met recently. And oh yes, swearing in Dutch is/feels much stronger than in an other language, happily for me not many people outside the Netherlands understand Dutch so when abroad I can do that without people staring at me real shocked.

I can listen with admiration to people who are really bi-lingual and who can switch easily between two or three languages. Some of my colleagues can, I wish I was able do that. On the other hand I have to smile often when I hear it. Apparently some Dutch words have no good translation and when I hear Arab, Turkish, or any other language mixed with these typical Dutch words, it sounds funny.

People may be polyglot (those who can speak many languages) but when it comes to counting with numbers they usually switch to their first language.

I witnessed the same thing. That must be usual with Indians. They were colonised by Brits and look at the mess now.

If somebody can speak more than one language very well, they usually do not mix the words. If they do then it´s an indication that they do not speak them very well.

I witnessed that in Kemal Derviþ (who were sent to Turkey by IMF during a financial crisis in Turkey in 2001). He was living in USA for a long time (20-25 years I guess) but his Turkish was still perfect and I couldn´t hear any English words in his speech when I espacially paid an attention to hear one.

I think peacetrain is more on the target here. For example I can express better myself in English when I speak about a topic from my field of study/work - simply because I didn´t learn the professional lingo in Polish - it doesn´t mean I don´t speak Polish well, it is after all my mother tongue - it´s just easier to use the terminology with which I´m more familiar. I don´t mix Polish words into a conversation when I speak with an English speakers of course, but when I speak Polish I will use English words now and then. When I visit Poland and speak Polish only, it hardly ever happens. It´s usually when I have to switch back and forth during the course of the day. I do consider myself fluent in both languages and I am equally comfortable communicating in both (of course since Polish is my native tongue it´ll always be the language I know "better"). So I would strongly disagree with your statement quoted above.

That´s not the case with me. What I do find however is that it´s unnatural for me to "visualize" a word in my head when somebody spells it to me in English - I need to write down the letters to know what word they are spelling. I noticed a similar thing with other polyglots  , one guy I used to know spoke perfect English but when he was spelling words he´d use the French alphabet (which was his native language) unless he made a conscious effort to use the English one.

That´s a lazyness when somebody cannot find proper words of their first language and resort to the easy way. People do that. A lot of people. And there are those who don´t. I admire them. I also pay attention to not use foreign words when speaking Turkish . And I am quite successful.

Aren´t you just the greatest? Let me build a monument for you. From all of us lazy speakers. 

It´s not always lazy speakers. It also includes those who cannot speak even their first language properly. let alone the fact that they should not mix foreign (usually English) words.

 Trudy what are you saying you are not bi-lingual, of course you are!!!  You speak Dutch, and English (and very well too) how is that not bi-lingual??

The reason the word "friend" doesn´t bear as much meaning as it once did is likely due to people who have English as their mother language over-using it. We English use words like "mate" or "buddy", whereas if you´re being sold something by a foreign person you´re a "friend". It´s not just the word that gives meaning to the overall meaning of the sentence it´s in though, which is what I´m getting at - you can say "my dear friend" or "close friend", but you can also replace the word with other words such as "acquaintance" or "confidant" or many other words.

This is why I have no trouble expressing myself with English words - because as you say, certain words such as "friend" may have lost their meaning slightly but you can compensate for that with careful use of the words around it or even a different choice of word. It´s this huge variety of different communication styles and techniques which allows you to be more personal and have greater control over what you say, both directly and indirectly. Not only that but also the tone of voice you use when you speak such things can have a huge impact on the overall message that you´re trying to communicate. How much of this diversity and choice is available to the author with Turkish?

I can understand how swearing would always seem stronger in your native language, and the same with things such as "I love you". Though again, instead of saying love you could replace it with "I adore you", "I´m infatuated with you". Or you could build meaning around the phrase such as "Your love is something I yearn for, profusely and immeasurably". These aren´t the best examples but I think you´ll get what I mean .

Also, relax guys we don´t need flame wars . I appreciate all of your input though!

Oh, and on a side note, anyone heard of a book called Eunoia? Each chapter of it uses only a single vowel. I think you´d struggle to accomplish such a thing with Turkish - what are your thoughts? (link for BBC article on the book - http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_7697000/7697762.stm )

 As being a native speaker of Turkish and almost an advanced user of English, I can confidently say that learning Turkish is  more difficult than learning English. However, once you get to the level of expressing your thoughts and feelings the picture is not all the same. What I believe is expressing yourself in a language purely depends on how good you are with using that language. In the case of ability to use both English and Turkish equally, I cannot say that expressing feelings with English is easier due to its wider options for. If we continue the example of friendship, I can count words such as "kankam, dostum, arkadaþým, tanýdýðým, hemþehrim" and so on just to mention different levels of friendship just like in English. It is the same with expressing your love to someone you can just purely say "seni seviyorum" or you can put other little word plays around it and make your expression seem richer.

The main reason why we can express ourselves better in one specific language is, I believe depends on the reason of we mastering that language. For example, although I can fluently use English, when it comes to expressing my feelings I just run out of words. Even tho there are many ways as you have mentioned before, it is not easy for a foreign speaker to get used to them and think as widely as a native speaker could. However, if I were to spend a great deal of my life in an English speaking country, and not using my main language in tha daily use, I would probably find it easier to express myself in English. My point is, the more you master a language and get used to its everyday usage, it gets easier to express yourself as well. The " huge variety of different communication styles and techniques which allows you to be more personal and have greater control over what you say, both directly and indirectly" fact only seems to come when you can use the language by heart. Because I can do the same with Turkish without any trouble  

One thing that makes Turkish a little difficult is the way we give morethan one meaning to the same word. However, as it comes to the same point, once you master the language you can easily understand what the word actually means.

By the way, the reason why we are not using those old words from Ottomans today is purely because most of  the words they used were not Turkish. However people who are older than 70 are still having most of their vocabulary from those times, which makes them quite special I believe.

Oh and about the vowel stuff, yeah probably we wouldn´t be able to that. However, we would be able to write a story on a single word ahah

Hmmm..!

That´s absolutely true. Naturally you´d be able to express yourself easier in a language you know more thoroughly. But certainly, one language must be inherently easier to communicate certain things than another. The trouble here is finding someone completely non-biased about the two languages, which I don´t think we can completely accomplish but perhaps someone with an English and a Turkish parent would be able to offer the most valuable insights into this.

Quote: derya_

Oh and about the vowel stuff, yeah probably we wouldn´t be able to that. However, we would be able to write a story on a single word ahah

That´s another part of what I´m trying to explain actually. It´s great in many ways that you can cut down the amount of communication required in order to state something, but then it also has disadvantages. When I was studying Turkish I found it very frustrating that various things I´d say in Turkish could be miscounstrued to mean something else. Naturally you´d gain an understanding of it so you could avoid the misunderstanding more easily the more fluent you are, but the point is that it just seems considerably easier to say exactly what you mean in English. Because of the sheer vocabulary and different techniques available, words tend to only have a single meaning - this allows you to be very precise with what you say, and the meaning of the word can be changed slightly by the context in which you put it.

That´s the main problem I had

Hehe yeah that is a real problem i agree, only until you get to a point where you can distungish the meanings clearly. That´s why learning Turkish is a bit more difficult than English.

And I agree that only someone whose mother language is niether English nor Turkish but who can speak both languages at the same level can clear everything out. Tho I doubt that there is anyone like that... is there?

XD

 It is not used that easily/soon, in my experience.  There are friends and then there are acquaintances.

Well, I´ve never heard an English speaking person saying ´going out with acquaintances to a pub´ or so, they are always with ´friends´. Only when I ask more I find out in my language it are acquaintances.

 In Turkey you are a ´friend´ the first time you meet!

Very true arkadasým. Very true ...

 I cannot agree with you more on that. There are a lot of those in Turkey who cannot speak their mother tongue properly. They belong to the "Ya bence þimdi aslinda var ya..." category that uses less than 200 words to get by in daily life. Then, they use another 100 English words to mix in so that they sound cool.

 I actually think that bilingualism is a bit misused.

You can be fluent in two languages in the sense that you can express yourself very well. In order to be classified as truly bilingual you should actually be able two speak both languages as well as your mother tongue together with a native accent.

I would say I am fluent in English, speak Turkish as my mother tongue, and can get by in Italian. However, I don´t think that I am bilingual despite the fact that I could write a business letter in English better than most English-speaking people I know or make use of a wider range of vocabulary in daily speech.

Bilinguilism is something that is really about people who acquire two or more langauges at the same time at a young age, and become "native" speakers, such as the children of a couple where the parents speak different langauges, and when te family may be living overseas. Swedish mother, English father, family living in Japan... The kid may end up trilingual in tis true sense.

   I guess in English there are several meanings to the word "friend" depending on the context, which of course may take more conversation to determine.  No, I would never say "going out with acquaintances to a pub", but then I wouldn´t really socialise with people I classify as acquaintances.  Another example would be a social event with work colleagues. Some of these I may class as friends and others as acquaintances, but if I was telling someone in conversation about the event I would say "friends from work". Another example would be "I´m going out with friends from UNi" or "my Badminton club" etc.   I think there are different categories of "friend" and this may be determined by the conext in which the word is used (or not as in your example when you had to ask more questions).  I guess this may seem confusing to non native English speakers, yet as a native English speaker I would not ponder too much on the extent of a friendship if someone told me they had gone to the pub with friends. I would take it at face value.

This is just my opinion based on my own experience of course.

 I agree!!  A very "close" or "best" friend too!!

Türkçe´nin seyri (Progress(?) of Turkish)

1960´lar
"Karþýma âniden çýkýnca ziyâdesiyle þaþakaldým.. Nasýl bir edâ takýnacaðýma hükûm veremedim, âdetâ vecde geldim. Buna mukâbil az bir müddet sonra kendime gelir gibi oldum, yüzünde beni fevkalâde rahatlatan bir tebessüm vardý.. Üstümü baþýmý toparladým, kendinden emin bir sesle ´akþam-ý þerifleriniz hayrolsun´ dedim.."

1970´ler
"Karþýma birdenbire çýkýnca çok þaþýrdým.. Ne yapacaðýma karar veremedim, heyecandan ayaklarým titredi. Ama çok geçmeden kendime gelir gibi oldum, yüzünde beni rahatlatan bir gülümseme vardý.. Üstüme çeki düzen verdim, kendimden emin bir sesle ´iyi akþamlar´ dedim.."

1980´ler...
"Karþýma âniden çýkýnca fevkalâde þaþýrdým.. Nitekim ne yapacaðýma hükûm veremedim, heyecandan ayaklarým titredi. Amma ve lâkin kýsa bir süre sonra kendime gelir gibi oldum, nitekim yüzünde beni ferahlatan bir tebessüm vardý.. Üstüme çeki düzen verdim, kendinden emin bir sesle ´hayýrlý akþamlar´ dedim.."

2000´ler...
"Karþýma birdenbire çýkýnca çok þaþýrdým.. Fenâ hâlde kal geldi yâni.. Ama bu iþ bizi bozar dedim. Baktým o da bana bakýyor, bu iþ tamamdýr dedim.. Manitayý tavlamak için doðruldum, artistik bir sesle ´selâm´ dedim.."

"Âbi onu karþýmda öyle görünce çüþ falan oldum yâni.. Oðlum bu iþ bizi kasar dedim, fenâ göçeriz dedim, enjoy durumlarý yâni.. Ama concon muyum ki ben, baktým ki o da bana kesik.. Sarýl oðlum dedim, bu manita senin.. ´Hav ar yu yavrum?´"
Ha gayret, az kaldý buna daJ

Yýl: 2026
"Ven ay vaz si hör, ben çok yâni öyle iþte birden.. Off, ay dont nov âbi yaa.. Ama o da bana öyle baktý, if so âþýk len bu manita.. ´Hay beybi..´"

I cannot but agree - since I am bilingual... I learned both languages at the same time, Romanian and Hungarian. This means bilingual or , if three languages - trilingual and it reffers to people or regions using several (two or three) languages at the level of mothertongue, as mothertongue, I would add, subjectivly speaking of course; or in the case of regions as a result of the

melting of several ethnics. Like kurds and turks, for eg.

Si++

That was awesome. I loved it. It demonstrates the depth of the problem really well.

Do you have any other samples. It is hilarious.

 It would be nice if the hilarious parts are shared with the people who can´t read Turkish (enough).

Turkish is difficult? It´s a relative thing. There are scientific results that Turkish babies are the fastest language learners compared to languages like English, Italian, Arabic, Russian etc. So that means an easier to learn language.

Actually it´s "an easy language that´s hard to learn", in other words, there are many things that make it MUCH easier than many other languages people study: no sounds that are difficult to pronounce, a simple and very phonetic Latin-based alphabet, no gender differences for nouns (except for a masculine/feminine distinction in a few words borrowed from languages like Arabic) or even pronouns, essentially no irregular verbs, etc. (This extreme regularity of Turkish, once you become accustomed to it, can even spoil you a bit in terms of other languages, which then seem very "quirky" with all their genders, irregular forms, declined adjectives, etc.)

On the other hand, very little of the vocabulary of Turkish is cognate with words from Western languages, and the morphology and syntax, especially as one gets into the longer sentences that mark most formal writing, are an entire other dimension. You may think of Turkish sentence structure as a sort of mental gymnastics, which is fun to play with but takes most speakers of Indo-European languages quite a long time to become halfway familiar with, let alone to master. Even people who´ve studied the language for quite some time can get irretrievably lost in some long sentences. Simply put, "the way Turkish works", while quite regular and in fact logical, is totally alien to the way you think and speak in languages like English, and getting used to this difference is a big job that takes a lot of time and effort. As in so much in language-learning, strong and consistent motivation is essential, and you need to put in effort over time to achieve mastery.

Ahmet Bey, sabah saat 7.00´de

Casio masa saatinin alarmýyla gözlerini açtý.

Puffy yorganýný kaldýrdý.

Hugo Boss pijamalarýný çýkarýp

Adidas terliklerini giydi.

WC ´ye uðradýktan sonra banyoya geçti.

Clear þampuan ve

Protex sabunuyla duþunu aldý.

Colgate ile diþlerini fýrçaladý.

Braun ile saçlarýný kuruttu.

Bill´s gömleðini ve

Pierre Cardin takýmýný giydi.

Lipton çayýný içti.

Sony televizyonda medya özetlerini ve

flash haberleri izledi.

Citizen kol saatine baktý. Aile fertlerine

"bye" deyip

Hyundai otomobiline bindi.

Blaupunkt radyosunu açarak,

rock müziði buldu. Aðzýna bir

Polo þeker attý. Þehrin göbeðindeki

Mega Center ´daki ofisine varýnca,

Toshiba bilgisayarýný çalýþtýrdý.

Microsoft Excel´e girdi.

Ofisboy ´dan

Nescafe ´sini istedi. Saat 10.00´a doðru açlýðýný yatýþtýrmak için

Grissini yedi. Öðlen

Wimpy´s Fast Food kafeteryaya gitti. Ayaküstü,

Coca Cola ve hamburgeri mideye indirdi.

Camel sigarasýný yakýp

Star gazetesini karýþtýrdý. Akþam üzeri iþ çýkýþý

Image Bar a uðrayýp

JB´ sini yudumladý, sonra köþedeki

Shopping Center ´a uðradý. Eþinin sipariþ ettiði

Ariel deterjan,

Ace çamaþýr suyu,

Palmolive þampuan,

Gala tuvalet kaðýdý,

Sprite gazoz ve

Johnson kolonyayý alarak kasaya yanaþtý.

Bonus kartýyla ödemeyi yaptý..Hafta sonu eþi Münevver´le

Galleria ´ya giden Ahmet Bey,

Showroom ´larý dolaþýp

Converse ayakkabý,

Lee Cooper blue jean satýn aldý.

Akþam evde bir gazetenin verdiði

TV Guide ´a göz atan Ahmet Bey, kanallar arasýnda

zapping yaparak,

First Class ,

Top Secret ,

Paparazzi gibi programlar izledi. Ayný anda

Outdoor dergisini karýþtýrdý.

Uykusu gelen Ahmet Bey, televizyonu kapatýp yatak odasýna geçerken, kendini mutlu hissetti.

Ne mutlu Türk´üm diyene !.. diye gerindi ve uyudu.

Turkish has fewer words than in English. Often we have to add other words to add shades of meaning, like az, çok, pek, biraz, fazla...

In English it can be easier to choose a shade of meaning.

Some words there is no equivalent of in Turkish e.g. frustrated.

I always say, your native language is the one you do mental arithmetic in!

e.g. if you see:

3 x 22 + 5 do you think "üç çarpý yirmi iki artý beþ" or "three times twenty-two plus five".

It´s difficult to share those bits if you can´t read Turkish. But by analogy it is something like this.

MATH EVOLUTION

Last week I purchased a burger at Burger King for $1.58. The counter girl
took my $2 and I was digging for my change when I pulled 8 cents from my
pocket and gave it to her. She stood there, holding the nickel and 3
pennies, while looking at the screen on her register. I sensed her
discomfort and tried to tell her to just g ive me two quarters, but she
hailed the manager for help. While he tried to explain the transaction to
her, she stood there and cried.

Why do I tell you this?  Because of the evolution in teaching math since
the 1950s:

1. Teaching Math In 1950s

A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of produc tion is
4/5 of the price. What is his profit ?

2. Teaching Math In 1960s

A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100 His cost of production is
4/5 of the price, or $80. What is his profit?

3. Teaching Math In 1970s

A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of production is
$80.. Did he make a profit?

4. Teaching Math In 1980s

A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of production is
$80 and his profit is $20. Your assignment: Underline the number 20.

5. Teaching Math In 1990s

A logger cuts down a beautiful forest because he is selfish and
inconsiderate and cares nothing for the habitat of animals or the
preservation of our woodlands. He does this so he can make a profit of
$20. What do you think of this way of making a living?! Topic for class
participation after answering the question: How did the birds and
squirrels feel as the logger cut down their homes? (There are no wrong
answers, and if you feel like crying, it´s ok. )

6. Teaching Math In 2007

Un hachero vende una carretada de maderapara $100. El costo de la
producciones es $80. Cuanto dinero ha hecho?

 That´s indeed hilarious! Great, thanks Si++!

 Trudy, I wish I could translate but I cannot. It is just a really funny take on the laguage of today´s youth.

 One of my objections to Rosetta Stone was they they insisted on teaching the Turkish for arthmetic operations.  Why? the answers are the same!

New guy on your web.  Spent 18 months in Turkey many years ago, and learned the language somewhat, still remember some of it, but alot was street slang.  As I study many languages, and not fluent in any, including English, I decided to go back to learn Turkish.  What a surprise, the language I spoke I had never learned to read or write, no grammar, etc;.  That is why I joined this web, am learning alot more than I did when I was a kid stationed over there, and if I can´t go back to the land I love, I can at least study it´s language.  Of course, out here in the boondocks of Montana, no one speaks Turkish.  But learning this beautiful language is definitely worth it.