Tabii ki Alameda You agreed with Elisabeth and so did I so logically, I agreed with you

Why does the curtain exist? Lots of reasons, just to name a few, there´s our tribal instinct where anyone outside the tribe is menace; there´s misinformation on both sides, fear of the unknown, money, and belief that "us" stands for better values and/or civilisational advancement

 My point is this. Some Muslims in my country point a finger towards the media for depicting a bad image of Muslims. They say the media is bad bad bad, because they report on Islamist terrorists and report on the high crime rates amongst Muslim teens in my countries. These people never go to those criminal kids and say "WHAT are you doing? Go home, go to school, and stop bullying people in the name of Islam". They never say in public "what is wrong with those terrorists, stop defying the name of Islam!" They always blame the media. I have a problem with these people. The media is making the problems worse, yes, but it is not the root of the problems. The root of the problems is the terrorist who hurt others in the first place. After 9/11 I wasn´t checked at the airport for a pen or camera, I was checked for bombs. The root of the problem is that those kids are out on the street making problems, because their parents are badly integrated and have no idea what their kids are doing.

I have watched the way the Dutch media reports on Muslims and terrorist attacks closely, because my Muslim friend said she was boycotting the news because of bad reporting. So, for a month I closely watched the two main news programs we have in Holland, to see which language they used. Guess what, the word Muslim terrorist was never used. They said "a member of Al-quaida did this" and "a member of the Taliban did that"... "The police forces in the 4 largest cities of Holland are asking for help to deal with street gangs"... I realized that the news reports aren´t such a big issue as people might think, it´s the actual actions of the crazy people that do stupid stuff in the name of Islam that hurt everybody the most. I won´t judge all Muslims on the actions of those few crazies, but you can´t blame the media for the people who generalize. That´s just a lack of intelligence on the part of those people.

Some Islamists, bad Muslims, media, complaints and stuff like that... The real problem here is the wrong perception of the Western governments and media who consider Muslims as a potential threat. In many countries, the prophet of Islam is depicted as a terrorist; Islam as an evil religion, people are seriously questioning the entire belief system and all this is happening with a complete denial of the fact that Islam is one of the largest three religions in the world. When you take into account the conflicts happening in these countries and those initiated or intervened by the venerable US and its allies you will conclude that the real evil is elsewhere. The real evil is currently bombing innocent civilians in Afghanistan. I am sorry if these sad news don´t make the headlines in your country´s newspapers but this is more or less what is going on in the world.

True there are terrorist who call themselselves as mujaheddin and they claim they are doing this in the name of God but believe me they don´t have wide spread support. If this wasn´t the case every country being assulted would not have some energy resource or some geopolitical significance.

There are good Muslims and they form the majority, you don´t have to try to tame them any further. They are already humiliated sufficiently. Just close the doors of your boring country to all Muslims and enjoy life the best you can. If this is what you are trying to achieve.

It´s unfair Vineyards to speak like that. I can´t speak for all western countries but news about bombing civilians definitely make it to the news in Poland and Ireland. There is no agitation here for the war in Afghanistan, on the contrary, the only reason Polish MPs give for our troops being there is "to support our ally" and there are plenty of lobbists in favour of bringing our boys back home (Polish soldiers are on missions all around the world). Recently soldiers responsible for accidental shooting of civilians got prison sentences. The "anti-Muslim" programmes are only on youtube, never on tv. On all occassions, celebrations, the main imam of Polish Muslims (although there are just about 5,00 Muslims in Poland) is invited together with catholic and orthodox heads of religions.

Not once have I heard the phrase "bad Muslims" but, like BM said, members of this-and-that.

To make a long story short: there is currently a wide spread anti-Islam sentiment in the Western world and this manifests itself not only among people but also in the bureaucratic formalities and political decisions made by these countries.

Let me tell you a story, when you watch Hollywood movies from the 50´s, you´ll find countries like Russia complete with the entire "iron curtain" countries, Germany and Japan were satanized. You can´t deny the government´s role in manipulating a desired hatred reaction against these countries. It is something cultural, it is in the mindset of these nations and their leaders to satanize the enemy.

The same thing happened to the Ottoman Empire. There was a satanic Turk image which precedes the partly bad image of Turks even today. British agents provoked uprisals in the once Ottoman territory forcing the empire to fight wars on all possible fronts. The movies were depicting a terrible Turk image. Agents operating in East Turkey provoked Armenians to form alliance with the Russians and revolt against the country.

It wasn´t the pro-freedom sentiment that caused them to do all these. Humanistic ideals were out of question too. These war lords created small nationalistic countries which are impossible to defy their power. Many of those countries had dictators in place and their people were kept ignorant and powerless.

I am inviting you to undo my judgements about the West rather than find excuses or put the blame on the other party. It is obvious that the West has set its mind on the Islam these days. They are doing their best to polarize the world into haves and have nots.

The slight note of dislike for the Ottoman Empire might have something to do they got north as far as Vienna, looting and slaughtering people along the way

I´m not trying to find excuses, just say what it´s like in here. You have to look at the problem on many levels: the political ones and the social ones. Some people here protest against the western intervention in the east, some do not care, some are in favour of it. Some people do not care who their neighbour is, some do not want a Pole, a black or a Muslim. Are you trying to say Muslims applications for visas are rejected on the basis of their religion? I hardly think so.

Well, if it were the massacres, torture and cruelty that form the negative image of a nation then I can ask you about the medieval times in Europe. I could go on to inquire about the cruelties the Jewish communities of Spain were subjected to. I might also ask you about Dracula (Vlad). Sectarian wars, crusades and their barbarism. Indeed, crusaders gave the biggest harm to Istanbul than anybody else. Even Hagia Sophia still bears the signs of their vandalism.

Of course, you were taught in schools like that. There is no denying we were taught the other way around. Wouldn´t it be naive to think Ottomans or Europeans deserve such a bad image.

Assimilation? The world is full of assimilated people. Slavized Bulgarians, Islamized Serbs, Russified or Germanized Poles you name it. Who is completely innocent?

You´re absolutely right and hence nobody sane claims that Crusades or Pogroms were ok but they just had bad press Times were cruel and so were people, regardless of faith or country of origin. We are taught that at school, just as we are taught modern history. If you´re trying to say the Ottomans didn´t brutally march into Europe but danced instead and everybody loved them, then you´re plain wrong. The crescent moon wanted Europe but failed, just like crusaders did trying to gain Middle East. Neither party was better than the other.

The world as we know today was built on corpses, blood and wars and there isn´t a nation that is innocent.