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Protesters demand removal of pledge from Turkish schools
(15 Messages in 2 pages - View all)
1 [2]
10.       denizakkurt
2 posts
 27 Jul 2011 Wed 10:30 am

To my dear friend with the ´crazy´ idea that one is ´not obliged to love the country you grew up in, as it was not your decision. The country comes second, first comes the respect for an individual human being and their right to freedom of expression, even if they decide to openly speak about their dislike towards their homeland. You can´t force kids to love anyone. I´d hate it if my children´s school had a cult of an individual...a state should provide taxpayers with opportunities to earn their living and protect them. That´s what you pay for.´:

You are totally right in saying this and expecting this from Turkey but then in complete error in not noticing that Turkey is not a regular country and the system that she operates on cannot be evaluated by standards that other countries operate on.

 

Neither the way she is founded, nor the jeopolitical difficulties she is faced with ever since she has been established have been like other countries and this creates such a huge exception in so many ways that what you think of as being the ´cult´ of an individual is actually the only way Turkey has been able to maintain peace and exemplify some integrity and stability in the region.

This does not mean she is exempt from international human right laws and or protocols, she definitely is entitled to play by the international rules, however as a country built on the ashes of a 700 year old empire and having survived the trauma of being invaded at its heartland, a considerable majority of the citizens of the Turkish Republic feel it is extremely critical and very appropriate for Turkish people to remember what it took to save them from being a slave of the imperialist powers. So what you are criticizing here is only the Turkish people´s right to maintain their sovereignty and Mustafa Kemal is only the embodiment of that freedom fight. That being said, if you were one of those people that believed that reviving his memory and that of everyone that supported him in the Independence war was the only way to maintain your freedom, you would have supported the system too.

The rhetoric or the mannerism in which it is administered after almost 90 years may not look like it fits the human rights logic, and believe me, I would be one of the first to find ways to modernize it, but so far we are not there and therefore your criticism ends up being about people´s claim for their freedom. No human rights activist can fight something like that, not on your terms at least and I sincerely invite you to reconsider your perspective on this issue, because I am concerned that your words will get lost among a very justified cry for freedom and independence.

 

Edited (7/27/2011) by denizakkurt
Edited (7/27/2011) by denizakkurt

11.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 27 Jul 2011 Wed 04:06 pm

Denizakkurt - I am not debating here whether or not Ataturk´s actions were justified, called for and/or necessary. Everybody can have an opinion about it and everybody´s opinion should be respected. I was referring to Tunci´s words he basically repeated later on:

"Cus Turkish people loved and loves  him sincerely , and greatful to him for saving the country from barbaric invasion of imperialist nations. Some few people who are provoked by spider minded people thinks that He destroyed Islam in Turkey which He didnt. On the contrary He saved Muslim population and Islam in Turkey by kicking  emperialist western powers out the country. In fact those people who are protesting "national pledge " are obviously against everything that Ataturk did..Ataturk was a human being just like us.. He didnt like  to be over praised."

Apparently not all Turkish people love him and not all Turkish people find his actions necessary. You know what societies work like, it is never 100% in favour of one way or 100% against it. I was merely pointing out that what may be considered a wonderful act by some, may be considered a failure by others. And nobody can condenm those who do not go with the main flow What if those protesting think they´d be better off in an Islamic country, free to wear headscarfs and be ruled by sharia law? Or, maybe they do not want independence...it´s their right to challenge any public person and have their own opinion that needs to be listened to.

I think the line about having your life saved and spitting in the face of the saviour is a bit of an exeggeration, he gave them a lifestyle he considered right. And they have all the right in the world to dislike it.

Having said all of that, I don´t think Islamic is the way for Turkey, but it stems from my personal anti-religion attitude. What I was commenting on was that it must be acknowledged not all Turks love Ataturk, and not all appreciate the way Turkey looks these days. The question now is what can or what should be done for them to be happy with the country they live in

12.       denizakkurt
2 posts
 28 Jul 2011 Thu 11:45 am

Dear Daydreamer,

 

I am glad to see that you are interested in what can be done about all this, but the problem as I see it there is no real issue about whether a pledge is made or not, or whether the syllbus in Turkish schools is racist or not. It simply is not and there are dozens of real life examples to prove that.  

 

You may have written what you shared with us as an answer to Tunci´s remarks, but in the end you are responding to an article that reports that children with headscarfs were taking part in a political campaign carrying signs that said they ´do not want a racist Kemalist syllabus. We are rejecting the racist pledge´, and I doubt you are supporting a campaign that is abusing kids. I say that because it is clear that children at that age cannot have a mind of their own just yet, or be knowledgable enough about such ideological issues to get to the point of believing in a stance against Kemalism. Therefore what you are seeing in that photo and the newsbit there is a charade, a public display of emotional and spiritual abuse of the masses, and people in this forum are responding to that charade. They may not find the right tone or rhetoric to argue about it but the reaction you get will carry their frustration about this charade.

 

Having mentioned Kemalism in this, I also feel it is important to clarify what it is. As you can find anywhere on line, Kemalism is about establishing a regime where independence and modern values are upheld in a secular environment where peoples religious beliefs, rituals or dogmatic approaches do not shape governance of people at a large scale.

 

It just doesn´t make sense that people would protest Kemalist values in this day and age of internet where freedom of speech and independent thinking have gained utmost importance. The pledge they are reacting to is not racist and such pledges are made in every country one way or the other at schools, as the alma mater, a motto of sorts. Thus, there´s nothing that makes sense about this event that we are discussing here. The system was never about creating a cult around an individual´s selfish belief system and it never will, but it looks like many are happy to misinterpret the situation for their own needs, manipulating the truth to be something else and creating a position about sufferance and getting enough sympathy to get all of us here to spend time to argue about it.

 

So, I stop here and hope that we can all live to see better days when the age of disinformation is over and manipulation of facts, minds and hearts will be a sad part of the past.

 

13.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 30 Jul 2011 Sat 04:24 am

I would never expect a different answer by a person happy to call himself Turk Kemalism is the only way, he was a genius, those who are against him are either crazy or manipulated (sure, and brainwashing children from the nursery that Ataturk is the most wonderful person the world has known lol is not manipulation. Please...)

Ok, so Turks are taught to love Ataturk so intensly that most of them do not even notice how mad it is. You even have laws protecting him. Do you get how amusing it is? A law protecting a dead person? lol

But I´ve done this subject too many times here to have even the slightest hope of my intentions being read the right way by most Turks. It´s a huge cultural gap between a person taught to question all authorities the bigger the laws that have to protect them, and the person having to recite an I-love-Ataturk poem before they´re taught to think critically, so please, let me finish here before the crowd with pitchforks shows up

14.       stumpy
638 posts
 30 Jul 2011 Sat 09:47 pm

Quote:tunci

The group also shouted slogans demanding that headscarves be permitted in schools.

The protesters are asking to remove oath and replace it with the wearing of the head scarf!?!  Well for me it would be like disciplining a child, you do not want to eat your vegetables then no desert.  In other words you do not want to recite the oath, fine but you still do not get to wear the head scarf to school.

15.       acute
202 posts
 30 Jul 2011 Sat 10:55 pm

I for one not being of turkish heritage find nothing wrong with the pledge and find it no different from any other country or any religious ( pray )  that is repetitively used in schools/or public functions. It is not and was designed for brainwashing it is designed as a simple way of belonging together and being proud of their country and giving honour to someone who actually saved the country not only through protection from all the countries that attacked it and weakened it but through giviing it an identity by changing both the usage of the alphabet to rights for all to be education, for establishing clean drinking  water and road systems.. It seems the ones who continue to complain and throw stones up in the air are not actually from Turkey and are either very dissatisfied with their own life/own country or are dissatisfied with their actual relationship with Turkey or a Turkish partner. If those people put as much energy to fixing a solution or donating to a cause to fix a solution maybe things could improve in this world. It seems like there is alot of bashing that is unwarranted. Be proud of you country and let others be proud of theirs as they should, after all they are the ones who vote in that country and they can be the ones to change what they don´t like.

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