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What ki maybe stands for
1.       Abla
3648 posts
 22 Aug 2011 Mon 12:26 am

I had decided not to open a thread about ki, because it´s a point that has been discussed many times in this site. But it seems that is exactly what I am going to do. Here we go.

I read a little bit about it. And it makes me think. I don´t know if the suffix -ki and the particle ki are historically related but I would wonder if they weren´t because as far as I made remarks (from the very small corpus which I have) I think they both represent what is not said. This works with suffiz -ki on the sentence level in utterances like

         Ali´nin arabası, Ayşeninkinden daha pahalıdır.

The speaker saves the hearer from hearing the same noun, car, twice and replaces it with the handy -ki.

What comes to the particle ki, it also comes to the place of things which are not present but which the speaker doesn´t bother to say, like in

         Kirazı yedim ki şeker gibi.

which means something like ´I ate the cherry and found it sweet´. But there is no verb which means found or noticed or tasted. In my language we call it "the donkey´s bridge" and it is strictly forbidden in the matriculation exam. I don´t know for sure what it is in English. The dictionary gives awkward transition. Anyway, it means a situation, where the speaker gets straight ahead from the premises into the conclusions without mentioning that some perception or thinking was needed in the middle. In Turkish, ki represents this perception or thinking which is not mentioned.

Furthermore, ki works on an extralinguistic level also, where it refers to common knowledge, possible or probable worlds, the listeners imagination, the world of ideas, whatever you call it. I remember you (come on, si++, I know it´s you, no one else ever reads my posts) once mentioned here a song which said

         Öyle sarhoş olsam ki bir an seni unutsam

The guy tells that even if he was so much drunk that... He doesn´t mention the typical things that happen when someone is drunk, meaning falling under the table, throwing up on his best shirt and all the unpleasant stuff that happens to drunkards and  -  above all  -  that he is not going to remember all this afterwards. ki stands for all these inconveniences which both the speaker and the listener already know from their life experience. And ki stresses the fact which is going to be stated loud in the next line: he wouln´t still forget the one he is singing about, not for a moment.

I don´t know if this covers all the uses of ki, but absent words, absent ideas seem to be in the very heart of it´s meaning.

Do you think I´m close?

--------

Of course there is nothing of my own here. It´s more like a fusion and personal experience of everything I read about the subject from this site and elsewhere.

 



Edited (8/22/2011) by Abla

2.       tassia
50 posts
 22 Aug 2011 Mon 09:03 am

i just got a shot of dyslexia by reading this....

Quote:

Add quoted text here

3.       si++
3785 posts
 22 Aug 2011 Mon 10:25 am

 

Quoting Abla

I had decided not to open a thread about ki, because it´s a point that has been discussed many times in this site. But it seems that is exactly what I am going to do. Here we go.

I read a little bit about it. And it makes me think. I don´t know if the suffix -ki and the particle ki are historically related They are not. Non-suffix one is an import from Persian and is called Persian ki. but I would wonder if they weren´t because as far as I made remarks (from the very small corpus which I have) I think they both represent what is not said. This works with suffiz -ki on the sentence level in utterances like

         Ali´nin arabası, Ayşeninkinden daha pahalıdır.

The speaker saves the hearer from hearing the same noun, car, twice and replaces it with the handy -ki.

What comes to the particle ki, it also comes to the place of things which are not present but which the speaker doesn´t bother to say, like in

         Kirazı yedim ki şeker gibi.

We can break it into 2 sentences

I ate the cerries and it´s like sugar.

Şeker gibi = It´s like sugar. You know for 3rd grammatical person we don´t have to use is or are sometimes (like in Arabic or Russian).

It´s an example of copula.

See also: this thread.

 

which means something like ´I ate the cherry and found it sweet´. But there is no verb which means found or noticed or tasted. In my language we call it "the donkey´s bridge" and it is strictly forbidden in the matriculation exam. I don´t know for sure what it is in English. The dictionary gives awkward transition. Anyway, it means a situation, where the speaker gets straight ahead from the premises into the conclusions without mentioning that some perception or thinking was needed in the middle. In Turkish, ki represents this perception or thinking which is not mentioned.

Furthermore, ki works on an extralinguistic level also, where it refers to common knowledge, possible or probable worlds, the listeners imagination, the world of ideas, whatever you call it. I remember you (come on, si++, I know it´s you, no one else ever reads my posts) once mentioned here a song which said

         Öyle sarhoş olsam ki bir an seni unutsam

The guy tells that even if he was so much drunk that... He doesn´t mention the typical things that happen when someone is drunk, meaning falling under the table, throwing up on his best shirt and all the unpleasant stuff that happens to drunkards and  -  above all  -  that he is not going to remember all this afterwards. ki stands for all these inconveniences which both the speaker and the listener already know from their life experience. And ki stresses the fact which is going to be stated loud in the next line: he wouln´t still forget the one he is singing about, not for a moment.

I don´t know if this covers all the uses of ki, but absent words, absent ideas seem to be in the very heart of it´s meaning.

Do you think I´m close?

 

You may drop the part after ki and I call it elliptical-ki (Not that a term I heard/read somewhere, I just call it so) We had a discussion about with CynicMystic about it in this thread. (Also see: this)

 Öyle sarhoş olsam ki (...)

In your example you provide something for ellipsis part.

Öyle sarhoş olsam ki sızıp kalsam.

Öyle sarhoş olsam ki herşeyi unutsam.

If you drop the part after ki you leave it to listener´s imagination.

Öyle sarhoş olsam ki ...

Öyle mutluyum ki ...

Öyle bir yaptım ki ...

Gitmedim ki ...

etc.


 

--------

Of course there is nothing of my own here. It´s more like a fusion and personal experience of everything I read about the subject from this site and elsewhere.

 

 

 

4.       Abla
3648 posts
 22 Aug 2011 Mon 03:04 pm

Ok, I´ll see the previous threads more carefully.

I should think better before writing. It just happens that I get so excited sometimes.

Thank you, si++.

5.       Abla
3648 posts
 22 Aug 2011 Mon 10:49 pm

I used to think of a copula as a verb (usually ´to be´ or something similar) which is a link between subject and predicate. It seems that I had a simplified picture of the matter. What elements does ki connect in the above example?

6.       si++
3785 posts
 23 Aug 2011 Tue 10:17 am

 

Quoting Abla

I used to think of a copula as a verb (usually ´to be´ or something similar) which is a link between subject and predicate. It seems that I had a simplified picture of the matter. What elements does ki connect in the above example?

 

Kirazı yedim ki şeker gibi.

 

ki means more or less "and" here:

I ate the cherry and it was(is) like sugar (tasted like a sugar)

 

And it sounds weird to me a little. Where did you find it?

 

I prefer it to say it this way:

Kirazı yedim, şeker gibi (idi). (, means some pause)

7.       Abla
3648 posts
 23 Aug 2011 Tue 10:26 am

The cherry sentence was in my grammar book, next to examples like

         baktım ki, kapı açık

         geldim ki, kimseler yok

        çantamı açtım ki, bomboş

         biberi dilime değdirdim ki zehir gibi.

8.       si++
3785 posts
 23 Aug 2011 Tue 10:31 am

 

Quoting Abla

The cherry sentence was in my grammar book, next to examples like

         baktım ki, kapı açık

         geldim ki, kimseler yok

        çantamı açtım ki, bomboş

         biberi dilime değdirdim ki zehir gibi.

 

OK. They all seem to be equal to "and" here (more or less). And you know "and" is usually dropped in collequial Turkish. I would usually say them without "ki" as in the cherry example.

9.       Abla
3648 posts
 23 Aug 2011 Tue 10:42 am

Thanks, si++, I think I got well informed about this type now.

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