What do you all think about feminism? I invite all the guys on the site to give their views and understanding of the word.

What would you say if I said that Kemal Atutturk was in fact a feminist way ahead of his time!

Why waste money educating women if all they will do is stay at home and clean and cook and have babies?

Do women have an important role to play in a developing economy?

Should women be religious leaders and if not. Why not?

still men power

Always first with the ascerbic and controversial response heh dusk.....

i just loved the sentence "men power" and when i saw your topicc, i thought i should put this sentence in your topic

its is not just the sentence 'men power' you love it is the meaning behind it I am sure. Come on dusk...give us your real views on feminism. I want a good debate and Seticio will have lots to say to you. I love it when you two fight online, and i am sure you will start a huge online debate

your intentinon was understood to make a debate and watch it
what a nice plan !
ama yemezler

Ok
as I'm back from holidays I can start

Feminism in Turkey is in minority I think.
Most of university student are men. Women also study, but the truth is that, as Duskahvesi has noticed in some other Forum topic, girls have to spent much more their time and strenght to prove that they are as good as men in what they do. And also most of them won't be able to work as much as they would like to, because they have to take care about their homes. Most of them, due to their cultures and the way they were brought up, don't expect any help from their men, because in their homes father generally wasn't helping their mothers. But they are forgotting that 20 years ago, when their parent were getting married, was almost impossible for a girl to go to university.
Unfortunately, girl who are not students are looking for wel-educated boyfriend (the possibility that he will earn quite good money is much higher then) so as to sit at home, cook clean etc and live easily. I've seen it on my own eyes. My boyfriend was chosen by one of this kind of girl as a victim. Unfortunately for this girl my boyfiend a) has already a girlfriend, b) he can cook himself so he doesn't think taking care about the house in only women obligatory.
So Duskahvesi, If you are interested in intelligent, well- educated woman, you should change a little your way of thinking.

This is an interesting topic. I like to discuss these kind things.
I don’t agree with Seticio about most of the university students in Türkiye being male. I haven’t checked the statistics but I believe the females are not far from the half of the students in Turkish Universities. I guess they should be between 40%-50% but if someone would say there are more females I wouldn’t be surprised.

Also I disagree that it was almost impossible for women to go to university in Türkiye in the past. Actually the fundamentalism and the rise of conservatives in politics has began after 1980. Before that, for instance during the 60's and 70's women could easily go to universities and they could wear short skirts or whatsoever.
Both my aunts went to university but my father didn’t. They couldn’t afford to send everyone.
You might imagine Türkiye like an Arabic country which has started to develop in the last 20 years. But that’s not the case.
In the past only 30% of the population were living in the big cities. Now it is 70%. But in the past there were much less fundamentalists in small villages or in big cities.
In some jobs there are more females than males and they paid the some wages. A good example are the primary school teachers.
Unfortunately fundamentalist and conservatists females have become much stronger than they were in the past. Unfortunately the way they live and think doesn’t match the modern world. For instance some of them go to medical schools to become a doctor but they reject to see or touch a male body. In the past you would never see female medical students like these.
The aim of basic education is to help the children to understand the outer world. Children should see the relations between things and should be able to discuss things and say their opinions. Some families might fill the child's mind with unrealistic fantasies. They might prevent the kid to have access to common knowledge and might grow their kids according their fundamental believes.
As a result kids grown in such environments might think drugs shouldn’t be used even for medical purposes, using condoms or any other way to prevent unwanted pregnancy should be banned or when we die in an accident or from illness it is gods will.
Exactly for this reason basic education is a must. This is why the kids must know the world and things how they are. Now imagine the primary school teacher being a fundamentalist, what now?
Believe me in the past nobody would think about this question but now we start to do. So I don’t agree that everything was worse in the past.
The fundamentalist females want more rights and they want to change education, healthcare and public life. Should we give them more rights to accomplish their aims easily.

Well that was an interesting post erdinc. But I think we must make the distinction between fundamentalism and feminism. These women are NOT feminists because they are turning back the clock for their sisters, by continuing fundamental ideas, particurlarly the example you gave about female doctors not touching mens bodies, they are destroying the concept that women can be equal.

I'm appalled!

Maybe we can resurrect the Feminism debate.We don't want to get 'stale'

Sure thing Lyndie, but unfortunately I don't know much about feminism in Turkey. The way I see it, feminism is about being able to make a choice. If a woman wants to pursue her career rather than be a housewife, she should have the right to do it. And the other way round, if she feels perfectly fine keeping herself busy with cleaning up, cooking and bringing up the children she should be allowed to do so. As far as I know, Turkish women do have access to universities so by no means does the state make it hard for them to get educated. I suppose the inequalities between the sexes originate rather from the traditions and customs than the country's policy. I met a few Turkish women who are about 30, single and perfectly fine about it. I also met those who openly say they want to get married and devote their lives to being a housewife.
What surprises me about Turkish women, however, is that they are usually more quiet and polite than we (ahm..let's call us northern women) are. Also, I was surprised not to have seen many women in pubs in Turkey. I asked my friends if it was in bad taste for a woman to go to a pub, but they replied that there were no such rules and the women didn't go there because they didn't want to. Again, I think it's the tradition to be blamed for it. I might be wrong of course - I am not a specialist in Turkish sociology by any means. The above are just my general impressions and I hope nobody will feel insulted.

if any woman[who lives in the east] claims that she is a feminist, if her husband hits her, there is no feminist actioN
[this is a joke ]

Not too funny dusk...I expected better from you.

Anybody interested in continuing the discussion that Lyndie started a year and a half ago? (Maybe that will convince her to visit us more often? )

all sort isms can be danger when turned to fanatismand i think when we remember male&female halfs of same whole then i think will no need to be any ism

theres only one innocent and nice ism of life is ''humanism'' i think

I hate the word 'feminism' it reminds of the days when groups of women banded together and burned their bra's. A feminist to me is a woman who is not satisfied with herself. I am not a feminist, I like men too much for that man hating stuff. I prefer to think of myself as an equal, not physically as this will never be possible, but mentally, intellectually and competitively in business, DIY, etc and on a lighter note, drinking games. Treat a man as an equal and they will treat you the same - in my experience anyway!

I am struggling a bit with this discussion. Perhaps because the definition of "feminism" or "feminist" is so arbritrary, and laden with meanings that others do not share. Perhaps we should start with- what does the term "feminism" mean to you. I am certain that this term has historical and cultural connotations.

For me- a "feminist", is one who fervently believes that all people, regardless of gender, should have equal power in society. The fact that ther is a "feminist" movement, acknowledges that power in a particular society is unequal. (hence, men have more economic, political, and cultural power), A "feminist" to me is one who believes that ALL people, should have equal power in making life choices. Equal power in political decision making.

Unfortunately, the historical "feminist" movement from the west is laden with "anti-male", bra-burning, aggressive, anti-feminine recollections. Historically, radical actions have always been taken to achieve change. This is what our "feminist sisters of the 70's" had to resort to, to accomplish their ends.

In contemporary terms- I am indeed a radical feminist. And, a very attractive, intelligent, and economically successful woman, who actually may indeed CHOOSE to leave my career, and raise my children, and cook delicious dinners for my husband who I love dearly. I also may choose to work in my job, and my husband may stay at home and raise our children.

But, the fact that I have the power to CHOOSE and be celebrated as an intellectual and partner and full human being is important.

The term "feminism" is too charged and misinterpreted.

It does acknowledge that there is inequity in almost every society, disempowering women. I am curious to understand this more in terms of Turkish society, as I may be leaving my life in America, to move there and raise children.

'Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions.. for safety on the streets... for child care, for social welfare...for rape crisis centers, women's refuges, reforms in the law.' (If someone says) 'Oh, I'm not a feminist,' (I ask) 'Why? What's your problem?''
- Dale Spender, author of For the Record: The Making & Meaning of Feminist Knowledge, 1985

...to me being a feminist is about recognizing the fact that women are structurally oppressed, i.e. statistically we earn less for the same kind of work, female dominated working places are less paid than male dominated working places and so on...and I want this to change for equality...nothing more - nothing less! I want women to have the same rights - and obligations of course - as men in all aspects...just look at the education level of women in the world...womens possibilities to an education is far from equal in many countries today 2007...I think it is terrible!
I also think that the feminist claims goes hand in hand with the antiracist claims...it is about the same structures in society...
I think it is important to state that I am talking about structures that oppresses on group level...of course there are individual differences...but if we for one second think that the discrimination does not exist just because US has a foreign minister that is both black and female, than we miss the whole point. Surely it would be stupid if Condoleezza Rice stated that discrimination does not exist due to the fact that she has been successful. I think we are all aware of the injustice that is shown in 'the worlds biggest democracy'...

'Because women's work is never done and is underpaid or unpaid or boring or repetitious and we're the first to get fired and what we look like is more important than what we do and if we get raped it's our fault and if we get beaten we must have provoked it and if we raise our voices we're nagging bitches and if we enjoy sex we're nymphos and if we don't we're frigid and if we love women it's because we can't get a 'real' man and if we ask our doctor too many questions we're neurotic and/or pushy and if we expect childcare we're selfish and if we stand up for our rights we're aggressive and 'unfeminine' and if we don't we're typical weak females and if we want to get married we're out to trap a man and if we don't we're unnatural and because we still can't get an adequate safe contraceptive but men can walk on the moon and if we can't cope or don't want a pregnancy we're made to feel guilty about abortion and...for lots of other reasons we are part of the women's liberation movement.' ~Author unknown, quoted in The Torch, 14 September 1987




...I wonder if my chances to find a zillionaire diminished now?

I do beleive in equality for both sexes but I think fighting for womens rights went a little far in some cases. The women remain well known for there actions to make womens lives equal to men but some of them ended up losing their lives.

For example: Emily Davison threw herself infront of King George V's horses in support of the British suffragette movement.

...never mind, qdemir...now that I think about it I don´t find it funny at all... ...still...I am not surprised...

I am surprised you didn't add your thoughts to this thread yet Catwoman .

Amended: Oh! You did! Silly me

+1

my nan god rest her soul had a rather radical approach to feminism.when she found out that women were granted equality she complained that males had been awarded female status when in fact she viewed them as lower ..and no i don't agree before anyone jumps down my throat

I wish that was true, qdemir...but the truth is that mens violence against women both within the families and outside, is far to common in our world today...

To honor the tradition of our fore-mothers and fore-fathers of TC, we ought to continue this topic...

Therefore, I´d like to share with you a fantastic piece by Robert Jensen:

Feminism´s Challenge: Articulating Alternatives to Unsustainable Hierarchies

Here´s the beginning of the article:

"What is the most important challenge facing women in the 21st century, and why?"

That one isn´t easy for anyone to answer, especially in 300 words or less. But that was the assignment from editors of the University of Texas´ web site for faculty members contributing to the "Many Voices of Feminism" collection, which is online at http://www.utexas.edu/features/2009/03/09/feminisms/.

It is an especially tricky question for a man to try to answer. Rather than pretending to speak for women or for feminism, I wanted to explain why I embraced feminism as a method for analyzing hierarchy that could be useful in all social movements. Although men often treat feminism as a threat, in the 20 years I have been involved in feminist projects I have come to recognize it as a gift to men who want to understand and critique not only gender but other oppressive systems. For me, feminism is a crucial part of the struggle for social justice and sustainability.

Below are the 306 words that I came up with, not to answer the question but to hint at the compelling reasons we all should commit to feminism and the other progressive social movements that are necessary if there is to be a hope for a decent future, or any future at all.

Back in my kitty kat pyjamas, watching this informative clip, hehe...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kj7GkklBlJ0

You are so childish and predictable cat... why did you delete my last post pertaining to feminism? Was it obscene? No. Was it against the rules? No. Was it a personal insult or harrasment? No.

Then just why? Other than for a little power trip...

Tisk tisk... bad kitty...

a quick two pennies in

LONG LIVE FEMINISM!!!!!

 I knew you were an Amazon

 thank you, canim did you like coffee and a turkish toast i prepared for you? when do you want your dinner ready? right after you come from work or shall i bring it to your office?

Am trying to work out.... are Feminists admirers of Femme or Femme haters?

 Actually it was me who deleted the post not Catwoman.  In my view it crossed the line and was obscene enough to warrant deleting. 

 I agree with libralady and if I had seen it before she did, I would have deleted it. 

Since I have angered libra and LIR, two of my favorite mods, I thought I would post something that nobody other than the mighty kitty kat would be able to delete... Here is what I think about feminism...

Feminism is, first of all, based on a false assumption. The general ideology behind the feminist movement supposes (falsely) that women have always been the oppressed gender, and that they have been relegated to a lower status by men, who have refused to acknowledge women as their equals. Based on this false assumption is the explanation that, to become equal, women have been fighting for their rights ever since the caveman days gradually gaining one right after another. As romantic as this linear explanation may sound, neither history nor archeological evidence really support this view.

In the long scope of human history, the establishment of a patriarchal system is actually a very recent development. The religion of the Goddess was there already and had flourished for thousands of years before the arrival of the patriarchal Gods, such as Yahweh, or Allah. The worship of the Goddess has been traced by archaeologists to go as far back as the Upper Paleolithic cultures of 25,000 B.C. The origins of the Goddess in the early dawn of mankind´s journey is primarily founded on the mother-kinship customs and ancestor worship. Studies of primitive tribes over the last centuries have shown that many "primitive" tribes had not reached the understanding that sex led to conception. The conscious understanding of the male sperm impregnating the female womb did not exist among our ancestors. In the very early stages of our development, the secret of human reproduction was not fully understood, and remained a mystery, as people did not make the direct association between sex and childbirth. As a result, women were mysteriously perceived as the only ones capable of producing their own kind. They were naturally revered as "the giver of life". Because man had not yet made the association between sex and reproduction, the concepts of paternity & fatherhood, which form the foundations of our current modern day patriarchal system, did not exist. Mother was the single parent, and the sole progenitor. Under such matrilinear societies, children assumed the names of their mother´s clan, and the accounts of descent were kept through the female line, running from mother to daughter, rather than from father to son. The names were not the only things that passed along these lines. Titles, and possessions in the form of inheritances, as well as territorial land ownership were retained within the clan under the mother´s name.

Archeological evidence suggests that the earliest concepts of religion & ancestor worship developed with the concept that the female had a superior social position in comparison to man. The most tangible evidence are the numerous sculptures, referred to as Venus figures, which go back as far as 25,000 B.C. From Southern France to Lake Baikal in Siberia, the vast Eurasian territories seemed to practice the "Great Mother/Goddess" cult. Moving from the prehistoric era to our historic one, the evidence is there to suggest that the cult of the Goddess existed continuously for thousands of years. The principal deity at Catal Hoyuk of the seventh millennium was a Goddess.The land of Elam, which was located to the East of and contemporary with the Sumerian civilization, also had a Goddess that stood above and apart from all the other Elamite gods. Diodorus Siculus, a Roman who lived 50 years before the birth of Christ, wrote of his travels in northern Africa & the Near East, and reported that the women of Ethiopia carried arms, raised their children communally and practiced communal marriages. In Libya, he described a nation where all authority rested with the woman. The men looked after domestic affairs, reared the children and did as they were told by their wives. Public office could only be held by women, and certain warrior women in Libya formed armies and invaded each other´s territories.

According to Egyptian mythology, it was the Goddess Nekhbet better known as Nut/Nit/Net, that, first, placed Ra, the sun god, in the sky. It was also the Goddess Hathor that had created existence in the form of a serpent. Surprisingly, according to Diodorus, Isis was revered as the inventor of agriculture and as the Goddess, who had established the first laws of justice in the land.It was for these reasons that, in the land of Egypt, the queen had greater power and honour than the king, and the wife enjoyed authority over the husband. In fact, husbands actually had to consent in a marriage contract that they would be obedient in all manners to their wives. Herodotus of Greece, who lived several centuries before Diodorus, also noted how the Egyptian women transacted their own affairs & occupied themselves in business, while the husbands stayed home and weaved. The Egyptian women were remarkably free. As late as the 4th century B.C., they enjoyed the privilege of choosing their husbands and the right to divorce him on payment of compensation. The very word pharaoh, which generally sums up the image of a powerful "male" figure, literally means "Great House", referring to the Dynasty perpetuated in a matrilinear fashion.

The status of women was also high in the early Sumerian city states. The reforms of Urukagina, which is dated at about 2,300 B.C., refer to Sumerian women who had taken more than one husband. Similar forms of polyandry has also been reported in the Dravidian Goddess-worshipping areas of India even in this century. A group of Sumerian women, known as the Naditu, were engaged in the business activities of the temple, owned real-estate under their own names, lent money from the temples and formed the core of the economic activity in Sumer. They also happened to be the primary scribes who left us those clay tablets written in cuneiform. The epic of Gilgamish explains that the official scribe of the Sumerian Heaven was a woman, while the initial invention of writing was credited to a goddess. In the neighboring Elamite land, the principal deity was the Goddess, known as the "Great Wife", whose male consort Shishinak was known as the "Father of the Weak". In the early periods of Elam, male clergy served the Goddess, and appeared naked before the high priestess, which was also the custom in early Sumer. In Hammurabi´s time, women could demand a divorce, refuse to share their inheritance with their husbands, and seven of Hammurabi´s laws actually deal with the priestesses of the temple and their rights to inherit, suggesting that the economic position of these women was of importance.

In western Anatolia, matrilinear descent and Goddess worship continued into classical times. Strabo wrote about Anatolian towns, where children born into unmarried women were legitimate and respectable. The temple of the Goddess in Ephesus, which was the target of psychotic Paul in his zealous efforts, was founded by "Amazons". It was in the land of Lydia that the Greek Hercules was said to be kept as a servile lover to Queen Omphale. Heraclides Ponticus said of the Lycians, "From the old they have been ruled by the women." The Carians, Lycians and Cretens had societies where self-confident women secure in their social status led extremely free sexual lives. According to both Euripedes and Plutarch, Spartan women often spent time in the gymnasia, where they tossed off their clothes and wrestled naked with the men. Plutarch reported that, although monogamy was said to be the official marriage rule, infidelity of Spartan women was glorified. Nicholas of Damascus confirmed that a Spartan woman was entitled to have herself get pregnant by the handsomest man she could find, whether native or foreigner (too bad our thehandsom wasn´t around by then).

All of this changed with the establishment of the patriarchal religions, starting with the male deity Yahweh of the Israelites, where women had to accept their subservient position in the patriarchal society. A husband could now divorce his wife, but the wife could not ask for a divorce. The wife called her husband Ba´al or master, as she also called him adon or lord. In a shocking manner, the Mosaic code declared that a woman was to be stoned or burned to death for losing her virginity before marriage - a factor never mentioned in the earlier legal codes of the Near East. If the victimof rape was a single woman, she had to marry the rapist. If she was already married, she would then be stoned to death for having been raped. If she committed adultry, the husband now had the right to murder both the wife and his lover. Along the same lines, women lost their age old rights to engage in economic activities, their inheritance rights, and many others that women of the older generations had enjoyed for thousands of years. The transition from the ancient Goddess religion to the worship of the male deity, as it is the case in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, has been the beginning of the patterns that feminists seem to be fighting against.

If you have read this much, I am impressed and thank you for your patience. In conclusion, I feel that the basic ideology of feminism arguing that women have always been victims of subjugation is misleading. There were long periods in human history where women did not only enjoy the same rights as men, but also had a higher status. I find modern day feminism a bit out-dated, and a bit too hairy...

 You have not angered me, I am just doing my job as an impartial moderator as is Lady in Red.

Are you two part of the Goddess Cult of the old days...? 

what a crap. i cant recall that human history going back as far as 25 thousand years BC.

 I would be seriously worried if you could

 i see my post was deleted.

 Which post? I don´t know of any of your posts that have been deleted recently

 naaaaaah, have no mood to go into details of who and why deleted my post, that had contained no insult.

btw, before you worried about me. why dont you think a little bit? nobody knows anything about the history that dates back to 25 000. the historians can go as far as 3-4 000 BC.

 Interesting post....I notice most the "Venus" figures look quite gravid. .....it looks like some of them are actually 27,000 years old. 

Hmmm...just noticed they say the one at the top of this page is:

"The female figurine from Berekhat Ram, in Israel. It is the oldest known figurative carving in the world, and is somewhere between 233 000 and 800 000 years old, older than Neanderthal man, and probably carved by Homo Erectus."

It does not bother me how far they can go back - I am more into what can be proven scientifically than historically..... that is why I am not a creationist.

 i pass

Well, we would not expect you eto know much about the history of mankind either... Neither would we ever assume that you knew anything about mythology nor prehistory.

It must be the legacy of your privilaged Soviet training...

The rest of academics in the world though do recall human history going back way further than 25,000 years...

Go englighten yourself on the wiki for all those years you wasted  in Cossackistan...

It is amamzing that the only sentence you managed to produce in response to my post is this... I should quote that, I guess, as the nonsense of the millenium...

well, don´t let femm hear that...

She might have a baby venus out of frustration... She seems to focus on the written records and disregards archeology or human prehistory for that matter...

 nothing is said about goddess worshipping back to 25 thousand years,

give me pls, some links about godesses being worshipped 25000 years ago so i can enlighten myself.

I am sure you can google it out yourself with your delicate fingers... 

I don´t know where Cinimini got the idea that women have always been oppressed and that feminism is based on this assumption. After all, there are still matriarchic cultures...Feminism is about equality so, logically, it applies to situations where women do not have an equal status. I have never heard any protests against lack of equality 25k years BC. It is about today and tomorrow, about how masculine and feminine roles will develop and co-exist about the mere suggestion that you can do what you´re good at regardless of what´s dangling between your legs or on your chest.

 the thing is that, cinimini claims that it wasnt so all the time, that there were times when people worshipped goddesses, thus women were respected.

a complete bullshit, in every ancient civilization women were opresssed and treated a low citizen.

 if you have no proof then give me a break

Valid points but cinimini still stands behind his post...

The op[ression of woman in the past six 5 thousand years may just be a phenomenon.

Maybe it will be men who will be oppressed and unequal in the next millenium...

Who knows... 

my two cents, there are no historical and archeological records and evidences that go that far as 25 thousands. end of story.

I think the word phenomenon is a euphemism, the last 2 thousand years have been definitely men´s years. Have a look at the social position of women, their role in deciding about themselves and their dependence on male relatives. Not too much luck

 DD?

the last 2000 only?

im disappointed.

I think women in the west are doing quite well actually and the rest in the developing parts are on their way... Think about all that has been achieved in the work place, and the legal system pertaining to child alimony & divorce settlements, where some women, who have been married for less than 2 years get a settlement for more than 400,000 dollars per year...

I find the feminist ideology outdated... It has served its purpose. It is time to move on to post-feminism...

What exactly do you mean by "there are no archeological records that go back 25000 years"? Are you serious? Cmon... There are archeological recprds that go back 150000 years if not older...

You are really strange tonight femm... I can´t decide if you are just trying to pick on me as usual, or if you are being serious in your posts.

You´re right that the situation has improved greatly and that women are doing better and better but I disagree that feminism is no longer necessary, there´s still a lot to be done and we still need somebody to make sure we won´t lose what we´ve been fighting for

 cynic, im repeating myself one more time, give me, the proof, give me the links. dont have them? stop replying. i wont google with my delicate fingers, since its you who claim so. if your next post wont contain anything to prove of what you claimed i wont be answering.

Wel, don´t be so sure about losing what has been gained...

Human history is filled with episodes of civility versus barbarity alternating non-stop... I blame human nature. One way or the other, one gender will dominate, changing positions. Men & women should have equal "legal" rights, but will they ever have "equal natures"? 

What attracts the two genders to each other are their polarity in almost everything...

When you take the time to post a lengthy response like I have, maybe then I will consider providing some links... So far, we haven´t heard your opinion about feminism at all...

Till then, it is you and your little fingers... 

"Legal" rights is all I want. Sure the "natures" differ not only with regard to genders but also within each gender. I´ll let myslelf daydream a wee bit today and hope for a world with balance of genders, real equality not dominance of either of them

I am afraid that world is an utopia.

There are far too many of us men that love to be dominated by evil femms in heels...haha

Well..I know..but one may have dreams, right?

And there are still too many women who believe they deserve to be beaten, humiliated and raped just because they´re women. And too many who don´t mind knowing that other women suffer but will stick to traditional, society imposed roles

I shall lead those women to Victoria´s Secret store at our local mall here.

If they just don the right outfit, they may actually turn the tide around. 

   +1001

Afghan women who turn to immolation

Sitting in her family´s mud brick home, Shanas recalled the day she set herself on fire.

The 16-year-old doused her legs in petrol and then with a match set the fuel alight.

"The next thing I remember was waking up in the hospital surrounded by my family. That was three or four days later."

From what Shanas says it is unclear what drove her five years ago to take such drastic action.

She may have been unhappy about her engagement during that period.

But what is clear is that her story is one that is repeated across Afghanistan.

Lack of freedoms

Self-immolation among women has the highest recorded levels in Herat province (although many other provinces provide no data on the subject).

Most of the women are in their teens or early 20s and are recently or soon-to-be married.

Experts suggest that a combination of poverty, illiteracy, domestic violence and lack of freedoms continue to drive this decades-old trend.

While the Afghan constitution - written after the fall of the Taleban in 2001 - enshrines equal rights for men and women, much of the country remains conservatively entrenched.

At the burns centre of the provincial hospital in Herat, Dr Mohammed Jalili knows more than most about this gruesome practice.

He says he has seen more than 80 cases of women committing self-immolation in the past year. The majority of these women have died from their injuries.

"Many of the women and their families say ´it was an accident´," he says. "It´s their way of hiding their shame about the act."

But Dr Jalili says the cases are often easy to detect. Apart from the extent of burns, one tell-tale sign of an act of self-immolation is that there are no burns on the arm used to pour the petrol.

Shocking response

At the hospital, Dr Jalili was treating two women. He had operated on 20-year-old Anargol three times, including a skin graft operation on her badly scarred neck.

Anargol says she had committed self-immolation after arguing with her husband.

When asked whether she had a message for other women, she had a shocking response.

"Don´t burn yourself," she said, lying on her hospital bed. "If you want a way out, use a gun: it´s less painful."

It was an absolute cry of despair, and something rarely heard from women in this deeply conservative society.

But according to Soraya Balaigh, director of the provincial department for women´s affairs, it is an emotion that many women relate to.

"Pressure is often put on these women by their husbands or the mothers-in-law," she says.

"Violence is common and many women are desperate. I had a woman in this office who begged me to kill her here rather than send her back."

But there are some women who think that small steps are being made in the field of women´s rights.

To mark International Women´s Day in March, an arts and crafts fair was held in the city, with all the items made and sold by women.

Hundreds of people visited the fair selling an array of items, including jams, oil-paintings, religious sayings carved in wood and wedding cakes bedecked in decorations.

"I wanted to show that women can do some things better than men," says the organiser, Kandigol. "We want to have the same rights as men."

But Kandigol, like many women here, is realistic enough to know that this is wishful thinking at the moment.

Some will continue to feel isolated and desperate. And a few will decide to make a terrible, painful escape - and set themselves ablaze.

 Here is an organization that helps Afghan women.....

Kandahar Treasure

Mission

At Kandahar Treasure, we are dedicated to reviving the rare and unique embroidery of Kandahar and empowering women in the process.”

We are successfully accomplishing our mission by :

Giving economic independence to women who are home-bound – an important first step in the attainment of their rights and freedom;
Exposing the art form of Kandahar embroidery to a national and international audience;
Giving women an opportunity to provide financially for themselves and their families;
Enhancing the value of a woman inside her home through her income;
Raising awareness among women of Kandahar about the importance of contributing to the family financially and of economics in the society at large;
Sharing information on a range of topics, including educational opportunities for women and children, social events for women, government-sponsored and NGO programs, and health and hygiene education that is not otherwise available to the majority of participants in Kandahar.

 And here is the link

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7942819.stm

 ah and that was very important.