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Turkey May Hit Netherlands With Sanctions As Row Escalates
(22 Messages in 3 pages - View all)
[1] 2 3
1.       denizli
961 posts
 13 Mar 2017 Mon 06:24 pm

 

http://www.oann.com/turkey-promises-harsh-retaliation-after-netherlands-bars-ministers/

 

Wondering what people think. 2 questions:

1. Is this legitimate in the first place? i.e. for Politicians to go to another country, uninvited, to conduct some kind of public Political assembly in another country for the purposes of some Political purpose related to your own country.

2. What if this happened in Turkey, would Turkey even allow this? For example if a Dutch dimplomat visited Istanbul, without permission for some kind of Political Assembly in Taksim Square, to address all the Dutch people in Istanbul, for something in Holland that the President of Turkey doesn´t agree with in the first place. Or since there are very few Dutch people in Istanbul, what if this was a Syrian diplomat wanting to gather and address all the Syrians in Istanbul.

scalpel - -, Tulip, bydand and beraber liked this message
2.       kertmeyenkele
100 posts
 15 Mar 2017 Wed 09:47 am

1- A similar case happened back in 2004. Mr. Erdoğan himself said "if you are going to hold a rally, go do it in your country".

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/840946234122678272

 

2- I wouldn´t like it.

 

Note that the Turkish state law numbered 198 (passed by AKP´s itself in 2008) bans holding rallies in another country. One cannot help wonder if they know what they are doing?



Edited (3/15/2017) by kertmeyenkele [Bu ne perhiz bu ne lahana turşusu]

denizli liked this message
3.       gokuyum
5050 posts
 15 Mar 2017 Wed 04:00 pm

 

Quoting denizli

 

http://www.oann.com/turkey-promises-harsh-retaliation-after-netherlands-bars-ministers/

 

Wondering what people think. 2 questions:

1. Is this legitimate in the first place? i.e. for Politicians to go to another country, uninvited, to conduct some kind of public Political assembly in another country for the purposes of some Political purpose related to your own country.

2. What if this happened in Turkey, would Turkey even allow this? For example if a Dutch dimplomat visited Istanbul, without permission for some kind of Political Assembly in Taksim Square, to address all the Dutch people in Istanbul, for something in Holland that the President of Turkey doesn´t agree with in the first place. Or since there are very few Dutch people in Istanbul, what if this was a Syrian diplomat wanting to gather and address all the Syrians in Istanbul.

I think it is wrong going uninvited. But the brutal behavior of Dutch polices towards Turkish citizens  and deporting of a Turkish minister by force is very insulting. Things must have been handled without force. But because of the elections in Holland, populist politicians chose to act this way. Actually it is a win-win situation now both for the extremists in Turkey and Holland. Democrats lost again.

 



Edited (3/15/2017) by gokuyum
Edited (3/15/2017) by gokuyum

denizli liked this message
4.       denizli
961 posts
 15 Mar 2017 Wed 07:01 pm

 

Quoting kertmeyenkele

1- A similar case happened back in 2004. Mr. Erdoğan himself said "if you are going to hold a rally, go do it in your country".

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/840946234122678272

 

...

 

I didn´t know about that, good point.

5.       denizli
961 posts
 15 Mar 2017 Wed 07:02 pm

 

Quoting gokuyum

... Actually it is a win-win situation now both for the extremists in Turkey and Holland...

 

I didn´t think of it that way, it´s a good point.

6.       bydand
755 posts
 20 Mar 2017 Mon 09:51 pm

I hope the vote goes well for the Turkish people on April 16.

JNQ liked this message
7.       JNQ
465 posts
 21 Mar 2017 Tue 02:36 am

 

Quoting denizli

 

http://www.oann.com/turkey-promises-harsh-retaliation-after-netherlands-bars-ministers/

 

Wondering what people think. 2 questions:

1. Is this legitimate in the first place? i.e. for Politicians to go to another country, uninvited, to conduct some kind of public Political assembly in another country for the purposes of some Political purpose related to your own country.

2. What if this happened in Turkey, would Turkey even allow this? For example if a Dutch dimplomat visited Istanbul, without permission for some kind of Political Assembly in Taksim Square, to address all the Dutch people in Istanbul, for something in Holland that the President of Turkey doesn´t agree with in the first place. Or since there are very few Dutch people in Istanbul, what if this was a Syrian diplomat wanting to gather and address all the Syrians in Istanbul.

1. It´s not legal in Turkish law to campaign abroad for a referendum. Besides that, in this case concerning the ministers´ visiting, it was lawful to refuse the visit. Any country has right to decide how they want to be visited by other countries governments. Governments are by law at all times the boss in their own country. Apart from my own opinion on the decision of the Dutch government to act this way, it would not have been necessary at all, because there were already agreements made between the Turkish and Dutch government that the Turkish ministers would wait to come until after the Dutch elections, which were 1 week later. Turkey made a one sided decision not to keep to that agreement. Maybe it was that, which made Dutch government take the decision to take matters in their own hands. Furthermore ministers do not have diplomatic immunity because they are not diplomats, the are ministers of parliament. Turkey will not be able to make a law suit at the International Court of Justice, because it never signed the agreement to join it in the first place, in other words, it´s not a member. Even if it had joined it, Turkey would have had to go through every existing internal judicial system first before it could enter the case into the ICJ. 

2. See above, you have to make a difference between diplomats and ministers. Legally they do not have the same rights to operate. A diplomat would never campaign because he´s not supposed to be partial (from any party), he should be neutral. 

I´m not sure about if Turkey allows campaining of foreign ministers 1 week before there own elections where the foreign campaigning could effect the election results, but I could guess. Especially if I see what happens to people who try to campaign for the ´no´-voters in the current Turkish referendum. 

I strongly hope for real democracy, real freedom and real peace for the Turkish people. 



Edited (3/21/2017) by JNQ

Tulip liked this message
8.       JNQ
465 posts
 21 Mar 2017 Tue 02:59 am

 

Quoting gokuyum

 

I think it is wrong going uninvited. But the brutal behavior of Dutch polices towards Turkish citizens  and deporting of a Turkish minister by force is very insulting. Things must have been handled without force. But because of the elections in Holland, populist politicians chose to act this way. Actually it is a win-win situation now both for the extremists in Turkey and Holland. Democrats lost again.

 

 

I´m so sad that even you fell for this G. First of all, they were not Turkish citizens, they were Dutch citizens. They were born here, their children are born here, all their families live here, they speak Dutch, they work here, they play soccer here, they pay taxes here, they will prb die here and once or maybe twice a year they visit the old country because the sun is so nice. 
Second, when this handful of hooligans was gathered, the riot police was ordered to come. Then they kept calm until the riot police were gone, and then they attacked the remaining police. They were throwing bricks and stones taken out of the street, and kicking policemen when they were down on the ground. Those images you don´t get to see in Turkey but we do. And this one man is so lucky and should be thanking god on his knees that he was only bit in his ass by a dog, instead of being shot, which would have been totally justified if policeofficers had to defend themselves. I totally agree with you things should have been handled without force, but tell that to the people who started it. And I won´t even say anything about what would have happened if this kind of hooligan riot had started on Taksim. Also I totally agree this is a win for both extreme sides. Sadly. I´m just happy extreme right didn´t win the elections in my country because of this. 

As for the ´deporting by force´ of the Turkish minster, see above and this is what I heard from the mayor: while police were being attacked, the ministers and her security agents refused to come out of the car. Dutch police were totally unaware who else was inside the car, if they were armed, what their plans were, and how they would come out of the car. They are obligated to secure the situation, so they had to take into account the possibilty that there were weapons in the car, that people would come out of that car with their guns pulled, reading to shoot or even shooting. The minister herself was never treated ´brutally´ as you call it. Had they just come out of the car, nothing would have been the matter, although indeed as she was a foreign government in the house of another government without permission, she would have been escorted out nevertheless. 
Please don´t believe anything you read in the papers. Even I don´t do that.

Also, this word ´insulting´ doesn´t mean very much in Holland. Police do what they have to do and they have a right to do it. Turkish parliament just abolished ministerial immunity didn´t they? Well, welcome to abiding the law young lady! 

 



Edited (3/21/2017) by JNQ
Edited (3/21/2017) by JNQ
Edited (3/21/2017) by JNQ

Adam25 and Tulip liked this message
9.       defacto
42 posts
 21 Mar 2017 Tue 11:51 am

l don´t understand why turkish people have voted they are live in netherlands.

And why decide about our future and our live?

JNQ liked this message
10.       gokuyum
5050 posts
 21 Mar 2017 Tue 06:45 pm

 

Quoting JNQ

 

 

I´m so sad that even you fell for this G. First of all, they were not Turkish citizens, they were Dutch citizens. They were born here, their children are born here, all their families live here, they speak Dutch, they work here, they play soccer here, they pay taxes here, they will prb die here and once or maybe twice a year they visit the old country because the sun is so nice. 
Second, when this handful of hooligans was gathered, the riot police was ordered to come. Then they kept calm until the riot police were gone, and then they attacked the remaining police. They were throwing bricks and stones taken out of the street, and kicking policemen when they were down on the ground. Those images you don´t get to see in Turkey but we do. And this one man is so lucky and should be thanking god on his knees that he was only bit in his ass by a dog, instead of being shot, which would have been totally justified if policeofficers had to defend themselves. I totally agree with you things should have been handled without force, but tell that to the people who started it. And I won´t even say anything about what would have happened if this kind of hooligan riot had started on Taksim. Also I totally agree this is a win for both extreme sides. Sadly. I´m just happy extreme right didn´t win the elections in my country because of this. 

As for the ´deporting by force´ of the Turkish minster, see above and this is what I heard from the mayor: while police were being attacked, the ministers and her security agents refused to come out of the car. Dutch police were totally unaware who else was inside the car, if they were armed, what their plans were, and how they would come out of the car. They are obligated to secure the situation, so they had to take into account the possibilty that there were weapons in the car, that people would come out of that car with their guns pulled, reading to shoot or even shooting. The minister herself was never treated ´brutally´ as you call it. Had they just come out of the car, nothing would have been the matter, although indeed as she was a foreign government in the house of another government without permission, she would have been escorted out nevertheless. 
Please don´t believe anything you read in the papers. Even I don´t do that.

Also, this word ´insulting´ doesn´t mean very much in Holland. Police do what they have to do and they have a right to do it. Turkish parliament just abolished ministerial immunity didn´t they? Well, welcome to abiding the law young lady! 

 

I meant Turkish citizens of Holland. And I think maybe some of them are both citizens of Holland and Turkey. I didnt know the both sides of the story. I didnt know about holigans attacking police when they were outnumbered. All I saw that a police dog biting a Turkish protestor and police preventing others to help him. That really made me angry. Because he is a human being and he deserves to be treated so. I still think it is inhuman using dogs against protestors. There must be other methods to handle them. You say that police could shoot him. That is unaccaptable too. Is it that easy to kill a person?

I think Holland has valid arguements too. And I think it was wrong going uninvited but I still believe that to get the votes of extremists Holland goverment used unneccessary force. And that made me see that democracy is just a fancy word even in Europe. I witnessed that same things happening here every day can happen in Holland too. It was a big disappointment for me. I hate populism and vote hunting more than anything.

 



Edited (3/21/2017) by gokuyum
Edited (3/21/2017) by gokuyum
Edited (3/21/2017) by gokuyum
Edited (3/21/2017) by gokuyum

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