...

Perhaps I should first note what the Abant Platform is. It is a discussion forum launched in 1998 in order to "allow Turkish intellectuals from all walks of life to come together and talk freely." The idea and the organization belong to none other than the strongest religious community in Turkey: The Fethullah Gülen movement. In a step that some considered a public relations campaign, and others have suspected as an effort to "buy in" the intellectuals, .....

....The establishment of an Independent Unified Kurdistan, which will include southeastern Turkey. 

The fear is not totally groundless. World War I, which shaped the map of the current Middle East, left the Kurds as a people without a country. They were divided into four states, Turkey, Iraq, Iran and Syria. At first they were not terribly upset by this setting, because the tides of modern nationalism, which hit other peoples of the region, had not reached them yet. Yet as time went by, national consciousness arose among the Kurds, too, which led them to launch a series of uprisings and guerilla wars against their host states.

In return, these host states decided to crush Kurdish nationalism by force, and often ended up in inflaming it. That was the case especially in Turkey. From the 1920s on, Ankara decided to deny the very existence of Kurds, and imposed on them a strict policy of assimilation. The response of the Kurds was to launch more than 20 revolts, the last one being an almost civil war carried out by the terrorist Kurdistan Workers’ Party, or PKK. 

After seven decades of forced assimilation, Turkey realized its mistake. Thus, since the 1990s on, the ban on Kurdish language and culture was gradually lifted. Today, besides marginal Turkish nationalists, most people in Turkey do not fear the word "Kurd," as they used to do it in the past. But another term is still anathema and almost un-utterable: Kurdistan, i.e., the land of the Kurds. 

.... No wonder Devlet Bahçeli, the leader of the Nationalist Action Party, or MHP, lambasted Abant organizers as those "who lost their identities." 

In order to build reconciliation, both sides would need to take steps. Iraqi Kurds need to convince Turkey that their homegrown "Kurdistan" is not a step for the greater goal of building the Independent Unified Kurdistan. ...

..

The steps Turkey needs to take are, first, to realize that Iraqi Kurdistan is a reality that cannot be denied. Disallowing its name and official status doesn’t help us Turks in any way. We have spent seven decades asserting, "Kurds don’t exist." Now we should not lose more time by asserting, "Kurdistan doesn’t exist." 

The second step to take is simply to remember our Ottoman past. In the Ottoman Empire, the region was commonly called "Kurdistan," and nobody had a problem with that. In fact, the empire established an official province of Kurdistan between the years 1847 and 1864, whose capital was transferred several times, first from Ahlat to Van, then to Mus and finally to Diyarbekir. (The name of the latter city was changed into "Diyarbakir" during the republican times.) The term "Kurdistan" continued to be used freely by the Ottomans, who were, unlike their modern Turkish successors, not fearful about the ethnic and religious diversity of their country.

In fact this whole Kurdish question hints to us Turks that the ultra-nationalist (and ultra-secularist, for that matter) excesses of our much-praised Republican Revolution needs to be left aside. ...

The full article:

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/opinion/11052083.asp?yazarid=301&gid=260

Well thanks for this article handsom, it was informative for us Turks once again. No name calling here. I just want to share some of my thoughts on the establishment of a Kurdistan, and some of the possible intentions that may lurk behind such an idea.

True, the idea of establishing a new country called Kurdistan, which will supposedly include southeastern Turkey, parts of Iran and Iraq, has been around for a while. But, on the contrary to your suggestion, this idea has nothing to do with the thoughtful & benevolent sentiments about giving ´landless people´ their land that they can call their own in the name of justice or fairness. The Kurdish issue, as well as the Armenian issue, has always been political tools designed, implemented and propogated by Western countries. Depending on the specific geopolitical circumstances of each time period, the Kurdish & Armenian cards are played by the big players, such as the US, Germany, France, and the UK, for the sole purpose of protecting their vested interests in the region. The involvement of Germany & the UK in funding & arming the PKK, and escalating violence in Turkey is well known. (That is also the main reason why both countries today have a lot of Kurdish immigrants. In accordance with the vested interests of these countries, they found it more suitable to play the Kurdish card, rather than the Armenian card. The Kurdish issue served their purposes better. As a side effect of their past involvement, both Germany & the UK are having serious problems with organized crime. The Kurdish mafia in London has completely taken over the lucrative business of trafficking heroin, which used to be the playing field of the Turkish organized crime groups in the past. The situation is similar in Germany and Holland as well. But this is just a side effect, and doesn´t have much to do with the topic..)

Whether the Turkish army reacted the right way or not to these externally imposed challenges is debatable. However, the real cuplrits behind this state-sponsored terrorism were Germany & the UK, not really Turkey. I have always felt that the Turkish army should have been smarter and have employed different tactics to deal with the problem. For over a decade, over one third of the government´s revenues went into dropping bombs on its own land and people. The Turkish army literally shot itself in the foot.

The Armenian issue, on the other, has always been supported and escalated by France. That is why there is, to this day, a strong Armenian lobby in France. The US plays both cards depending on their key interests. Although the Armenian lobby is not as strong as it is in France, the Armenina issue, from time to time, re-surfaces and becomes part of the political tools intended to "show a stick under the table." Currently, the US is toying with the Kurdistan card; but tomorrow they may suddenly switch to the Armenian card depending on how things go. I don´t think I need to tell you that neither issue has any humanitarian basis or that any of these civilized Western countries give a damn either about Kurds or Armenians. They don´t. They see and use them as pawns on a global chessboard. Both are used as political tools that are intended to benefit the interests of foreign powers. You may wonder about what these interests are, and I would suggest paying attention to the shifting power dynamics in the region over the last decade.

The first invasion of Iraq, which followed the fact that Saddam´s Iraq became the first major oil producing country to start selling oil in Euros rather than in the standard petro-dollars, was intended specifically to send a clear message to the rest of the oil producing countries that any deviation from the petro-dollar standard would not be tolerated by the US due to the understandable consequences it would have on their economy. Of course, CNN did not reflect this reality. The reason why Saddam´s act was perceived as a serious threat to US interests is simply because, for the past thirty years, the US economy has been benefitting from all other countries having to buy their oil exclusively in US dollars. Oil, today, is exchanged on three platforms - NYMEX in New York, the London Petroleum Exchange and the platform in Singapore. The critical point is that, regardless of where you get your oil, you have to pay for it in US dollars. Norway is an exception, but it is also not a major player. When the only currency in which you can buy oil is the US dollar, every country in the world had no choice but to keep excessive amounts of US dollars in their reserve banks. Over two thirds of the US dollars in circulation are actually outside the US, retained by countries like Japan, China, Taiwan, India, Singapore etc. Imagine what would happen, if the status quo was broken; the oil-producing countries started selling oil in Euros or another currency; and the rest of the world that had been keeping huge amounts of US dollars in their reserves started dumping these petro-dollars into the the money markets to exchange them for Euros or any other currency. It would lead to hyper inflation in the US, and cause its economy to collapse over night.

The US simply went in; passed along its message to any other leader entertaining similar thoughts; and left with Saddam still in power. They could have replaced him with another puppet government, but they didn´t. For some reason, they decided to keep their old puppet in power. Saddam and the Bush family go way back. They used to shake hands in the White House during the days that Saddam was obedient. The issue of why Saddam was not replaced after the first invasion has never been satisfactorily answered.

The current monetary policies of the US give tremendous financial advantage to the US at the expense of the rest of the world. Before the Bretton Woods Agreement was abolished by Nixon in 1973, all currencies were pegged to a gold-standard meaning that countries could only mint as much as the gold that they possessed. This was changed, and the US switched to a floating system in which it had the absolute advantage of printing money at the cost of the ink & paper it was printed on. Just to give you an idea; the cost of buying, let´s say, 2 million dollars worth of oil is actually the cost of the paper and the ink that will be needed to print those banknotes by the Federal Reserve - not its equivalent value in gold. And, when everyone else has to pay for their oil in dollars, the US can understandably afford to have the huge trade deficit they have been running for years without collapsing. However, as I said, all of this dynamic depends exclusively on the rather vague notion of faith that other countries place on the reliability of the US dollar and its hegemony as the only currency in which oil can be traded.

Let´s move onto Iran. After the Shah incident, Iran became a rouge state primarily because the western oil companies from Britain & the US were nationalized, and these countries lost all control over the affairs of Iran. The freaking mullahs took over the business; partnered with Russia, China & Pakistan; and went stray against western interests. The know-how of the nuclear capacity that Iran is accused of developing was provided to Iran, as well as to China & Pakistan, by no one else, but Russia. In retaliation, Israel & the US passed the nuclear know-how to India. There is actually a military pact in place between Russia, Iran, China and Pakistan in which these four countries agree to aid each other in case of a military attack by the West. Quite similar to the concept of the NATO. Russia got into this deal in exchange for Iran to cease its support of pan-Islamic movements in its resource-rich Central Asian regions, which Russia perceived as a threat. It was also done in retaliation to the CIAs involvement in the Afghan-Russian War, which was actually the birth place of the mujaheddin & al-Qaida. Most of those being accused of being terrorists or insurgents today got their first training at the hands of seasoned CIA operatives, who had carried out similar operations in places, such as Chile, Nicaragua, Bolivia etc. Another fine example of state-sponsored terrorism.

The US saw a good opportunity in fostering oppressive & fundamentalist pan-Islamic regimes in Central Asia in the hopes of de-stabilzing the Soviets, and it back-fired on them in the long-run. In addition to partnering with Russia, Iran, like Saddam, is also guilty of the crime of attempting to sell its oil in alternative currencies than the petro-dollars. Iran has been actively promoting the idea of establishing a new platform to be based in Paris that would trade oil in Euros. Iran´s longer-term ambition is to establish a new Middle Eastern currency, called Drahma, similar to the Euro, and convince all major oil producing countries in the region to trade exclusively in this new currency. As a result, the US has chosen to demonize Iran for developing nuclear weapons so that the excuse would be there to justify a future attack against Iran, if Iran did not abandon its ambitions.

Let´s go back to the second invasion of Iraq. The invasion has multiple purposes. The first purpose was to replace Saddam as he became increasingly disobedient as a puppet. The second purpose was to look for an alternative to Saudi Arabia. The greedy Saud family, which was put in power by the Brits, and later dominated by the Americans, has never been anything, but another puppet dictatorship funded & supported by Western powers. They have been exploiting the resources of their country; filling their own pockets and serving American interests at the expense of the rest of Saudi Arabians. It is estimated that they own over 10 percent of all real estate in the US in colloboration with Citibank & the Carllyle Group - a major player in arms dealing. Because they have been so greedy, and have not invested into anything in Saudi Arabia other than into their own body-guard armed forces & and an oppressive police force, there is much dissent among the youth. There is nearly 40 percent unemployment, and a very pessimistic view among the young Saudis. It is very likely that, through a popular revolt, the Saud family may be toppled over in the near future. If that happens, or if it is organized/arranged to happen, Iraq will become the new base for the US to operate within the Middle East replacing Saudi Arabia. It is an ideal location in the sense that the US will be able to reach Iran, as well as any other part of the middle east, including Turkey, while exploiting the oil resources.

With the scenario that I have tried to construct, I think it is reasonable to assume that it would be in US interests to support the formation of an independent Kurdistan, which would naturally lead to the destabilization of both Turkey and Iran. An artificial state, such as Kurdistan, which would have no resources other than the Mosul-Kirkuk oil reserves would be nothing but a new puppet regime for the West. I wonder how this equation would translate for the average Kurd. A country of their own, but also a country that does not really belong to them. We will see if this scenario will realize. There are certainly obstacles that could challenge these ambitions. Russia, for example, does not favor the idea at all. And, believe me when I tell you that Russia is still the second most influential player on the field. Don´t make the mistake of assuming that the Soviets collapsed and lost the Cold War.

The collapse of the USSR was staged. It was a chess move. There is a reson why Russia produces the best chess players in the world. This staged collapse served two purposes and benefitted Russia, while damaging the US. The first purpose was to severe the bond between the US and Western Europe, which had been in existance since the end of the Second World War. The EU had no choice but allign itself with the US in exchange for a possible, or imaginery, Russian Invasion, while Russia had to carry the burned of supporting an Eastern European block that was useless in the sense that Eastern European countries alligned with Russia lacked valuable natural resources. What mattered to Russia was not the resource-poor Eastern Europe, but the resource-rich Central Asian states, which are still under the sphere of influence of Russia despite their independence. Russia, cleverly, got rid of its Eastern European burden; gave the Western Europe the impression that they didn´t need US support anymore, which lead to a diversion of US and European policies; managed to retain its Central Asian territories and secretly continued its role as a major player in the scene.

Everything really depends on how the big boys will cut a deal to establish the new power dynamics. Kurdistan may or may not be part of that plan. Analysts often state that there are two regions in the world, whose destabilization could lead to a third world war. These regions are Turkey & Iran. We will see what happens.

I don´t agree with you that what you posted has anything to do with the rights of Kurdish minorities, or their struggle to retain their culture, while forming an independent state. There a lot of realities under the appearances that you seem to miss, if you truly believe this is about justice or fairness. This is a political game.

 As far as I know, ´our´ heroin /maffia / dealers are not Kurdish but still Chinese.

it makes me laugh whenever I hear this crappy romantic propaganda of "people without a country".

The reality is Kurds already have a country and it`s called Iran, and I don`t really see what is so romantic with Iran. The boarders are wide open. everybody is free to go and enjoy the freedoms in Iran.

That is because you don´t know much about the issue. It is not the dealers themselves but the routes over which the goody goodies are transported over. Ever heard of the Golden Triangle? is it in China? Does it pass through China? Plus, if you notice the italics, it is actually a side-point that I made.

For some Kurdish people, their home is in Turkey.

And they are welcome to call Turkey their home just as any other citizen of Turkey is whether they are ethnically Turkish, Kurdish, Greek, Syrian, Circassian, Laz or Armenian. What I call home is where I hang my hat at the end of the day.

is their home in Turkey or is their home Turkey. don`t play on words cw.

Not easy to understand that whats benefit about  that and everybody has to be honest instead of proving their history inteelagnce with the crowded,scientific and nice words??...

 whaaaa???

ne oldu,anlamadýnmý???

Whew   a lot of thought and very well written +++....

I think it´s about strategic territory...the Bosphorus....waterfront property and the gateway to Eurasia...and water resources as well.....how many people throughout history have tried to gain control over that area?..........but humanitarian interests are the least part of this.

hayir pek anlamadim...

ne dimeye calisiyon?

+1000

I know it was and thanks for answering properly without resorting ´name calling´

My original post was simply to show that how some people in Turkey did not know the name Kurdistan was used by the Turks and how that simple word iritates some Turkish people irrationaly..The writer (Mustafa Akyol) was simply saying that how the word Kurdistan was used in Ottoman times..

Regarding EU sponsoring and fuelling Armanian and Kurdish problems of Turkey has always been stress ball for Turkish politicians and the Army.. I think in my earlier posts, I explained again and again, this is part of a paranoia stemming from the WWI. It has  no bearings.. I even remember giving examples how our politicans will use the same argument even for simple incidents such as accidents in ship manufacturing yards (example : Tuzla shipyard) ..Thinking that kurds are puppets of western countries is not a very glamorous thing. It is kind of hitting below the waist. I mean  for Kurds..They are citizen of Turkey as much as the army generals.. Nobody should suggest that some of our country´s people happened to be treacherous by birth..I am not buying it..

I am not going to talk in depth about why all those kurds are residing in some of EU countries because I have given many documents and posted many news articles here about how many kurdish villages have been burnt, how their names have been changed, how the language was banned etc. They are our citizens and they deserve to live as well..

So i dont think I should  repeat it again.

Well, I think I mentioned several time in other posts regarding army´s behaviour during this war and how many people died how many of them were kurds etc..

There have been crimes against humanity during all those years there.. Every single day they are discovering something new about what happened exactly.

There are 17,000 missing people in a list.. they are just unearthing something new such as how the army units would go and pick the people from their homes and streets and then kill them after a long torture..

Those acts were done under the name of ´fighting terrorism´ by our boys not by Germany or the Uk..

I dont agree with you..It is as simple as that.

I have given many articles and documents here reagarding how kurdish struggle started and how we have treated our own population..

There have been official documents showing that assimilation was the action taken by our own state for Kurds.

Turkey has been preparing herself for Kurdistan for a long time since the first invation as they had the facto self rule in northern Iraq...I am not sure if it is a good idea kurds to have an independant state in Northern Iraq or not..

But I still dont understand why Turkey should fear of an independant Kurdistan in northern Iraq anway.

Is there some thing that we are afraid of? cxan we say  that we did not make the life horrible for our Kurds? 

If we are accepting that we did not treat our kurds inhumanely, why do we fear to think our Kurds will join them? 

Basically what you have written up there generically a summary of what our state says about our kurdish problem (some people still try to refer it terrorism only). 

I can not see you adding anything new  into it..

I think you undestand very well what I wrote in my reply handsom. Feel free to disagree though. The quality of the post speaks for itself regardless of past examples or vendetta.

Some see the world through the microcosm whereas others opt for the bird´s eye view. It is a matter of perspective. Remember, it is always about the underlying principles, and not the appearances.

No No

I completely agree with you in disagreeing..

All you wrote about our kurdish problem was told us by the generals and officials for so many years..

You can keep writing them in english and I dont have any problem with that..

 Ã agree with that.

Very interesting reading cynic.

 I am yet to hear a Turkish general speak the way I wrote about the issue.

ha ha

well you are a good translater

But the ideas you mentioned above blong to the generals.. Nothing new really..

You dont want me to go and find what the generals said all those years about our kurdish problems for you I hope..

But till now i dont really get your opinion handsom about that.

Ý mean what do you think ?

Should they establish Kurdistan in north Ýraq -you know its a country without anyone defending it so its easy to do it when US in charge of it - and all Kurd go there ?

Or they should take the land from Türkiye as well and form Kurdistan and Kurd live where they are?

Or they ´Kurd in Türkiye´ should just live as they are within the borders of Türkiye as citizens of Türkiye  ?

If you still dont know my opinion about our Kurdish problem, I would accuse you not reading what I am writing really..

I dont think it isa really that important if there is a Kurdistan in Northern Iraq..

The problem is that why we are getting nervous about it!!

Of course everybody knows the answer:

We treated our kurds as if they are shit for so many years!!! 

That is why we are nervous..

 Why don´t you answer CANLI´s question properly as to what you think should be done pertaining to what she asked.

Feel free to find whatever you like.

Just make sure you take as much time as did in my reply in comparison to posting an article and suggesting that people read you old posts, when they ask you questions.

I know my reply bothered you handsom. And I know why it bothered you as well. It intellectualized your thread for a change.

Because it was a very simplistic question..

I am sure someone asked the same question before and I answered..

 Keep avoiding the question dude... it adds to your credibility.

 i personally think theres no answer to that.

 just observing your´fight´thehandsom you must feel endangered in a way,cynicmystic is more logical and definitely  more intellectual,and he steals all attention so it must be a pain for thehandsom....haha..what you both have in common is ´hot blood´perhaps you should start a new thread

cynicmystic contra handsom????just a thought

ha ha ha 

I love it..

Well, if im asking it to you then surely i dont know the answer.

You have posted something and im asking your opinion about the matter you´ve started.

Your thread name is Welcome to Kurdistan, you are talking about their lands not about how you treated Kurds inside Türkiye

Sure if you dont want to answer it...its up to you.

 ROFL

cok komiksin ya

Well, obviously, it needs to be reiterated....here it is again to refresh your memory....

"But till now i dont really get your opinion handsom about that.

Ý mean what do you think ?

Should they establish Kurdistan in north Ýraq -you know its a country without anyone defending it so its easy to do it when US in charge of it - and all Kurd go there ?

Or they should take the land from Türkiye as well and form Kurdistan and Kurd live where they are?

Or they ´Kurd in Türkiye´ should just live as they are within the borders of Türkiye as citizens of Türkiye  ?"

Seems like a simple enough question....

It did not bother me at all..

I was just lazy to write all those things I wrote several times here..

It certainly brought a ´new level of english´ only  into my thread.. and thank you for that..

But as I said..nothing new in the logic or what you said..

I can go and collect what generals and state officials said about our kurdish problem if you like.. you will be surprised to see they are exactly the same..

 sen bilirsin..onun posta okursunuz

 bilmiyorum, canim kimnun?

ok then..

geez

I have already said in my post that I am not sure if it is a good idea  to have a  Kurdistan next to Turkey..

It might be a good thing for the kurds but I daubt that they will survive so long once the usa has gone..

Of course they should not carve a peice of land from Turkey while doing that and that is unacceptable..

But so far the official strategy was so idiotic that they thought they could crash 15 million people by just arms while saying to them ´you are not a kurd, you are actually a mountain Turk´

Of course they did not buy it..

it simply did not work..

Of course Kurds should live in Turkey or where they are right now as Turkish citizens..

How many times do I need to tell this?? offff..

The problem is that what we have been doing since the beginning of republic was WRONG..

Assimilation idea was WRONG..

saying to kurds that there are no kurds was WRONG.

Burning their villages was WRONG.

Killing thousand of civilians was WRONG..

Look now..

you made me repeat what I said several times..

Geez..

So are you þahanem... sende cok komiksin...

A bit on the smelly side though - kind of like a rotten fish... 

Don´t bother to collect anything. let´s just leave it as it is. No need to bring the quality of the thread down, if you know what I mean.

You have been answered btw..

Happy?

 not reponding to this until you answer my question, þahanem

Actually

I saw in one my posts and it explains this 

´we did not do anything wrong..western powers trying to play political tricks´ in one of the earlier threads: 

..Many Turks believe that there are so many evil powers in the world, and in our own society that perpetually play tricks in order to weaken our country. ..... 
Since a belief in conspiracies is deeply embedded in culture, politicians use them very often. Most political leaders, or pundits, blame foreign powers or internal enemies for our problems. .... It is always someone else who must be guilty. 

In this case we have found the guilty parties as UK and Germany

Rude? What the hell are you talking about being rude, man?

I think it is her that needs to stop it.

Don´t pretend not to understand what i am talking about.

Is it ok for her to be rude and disruptive all over the place like schizo?

What am I lying? We were having a decent thread, right?

Go tell her to stop... being so rude.

 Mmmm, nope...not quite actually!

Ý mean yes of course you answered my question about if they take part of Türkiye or not

But you still insist that they are Kurd, not Turk

Then how come they are citizen of Türkiye and they are not Turk ?

The citizen of Türkiye name is Turk..as the citizen of US name is American for example, and all people inside the US even they have other roots, but still their name is Americans

So how do you say they are not Turk and at same time they are citizen of Türkiye ?!

 i dont think he was rude

dont you see? he loves me. my presence turns him on.

Ý cant believe it !

Dont tell me you are going to start it all over again !

Please, keep it to the topic and dont get personal ... we are talking in politics forum then let´s keep it to politics.

You are missing the point. Every single country that has a foreign service (intelligence service) makes use of the same discusting tactics of manipulation. They meddle in the affirs of other countries and attempt to manipulate the outcome in accordance with their national interests. It is part of the game. Turkish secret service does its own dirty work just tlike the CIA or the MI6 or Mosad. This is how international relations are shaped behind the scenes - through manipulation, and state-sponsored terrorism. The involvement of Britain & Germany does not make them guilty nor does it implicate that every person that was part of those governemnts were part of the game. All I am saying is that this is not a black-and-white matter as you make out to be. It is complex, and many players are involved. This is not about right or wrong either. It is just the nature of the game. It is part of the game to hit below the belt, as long as you don´t get caught and cause an international scandal.  

They are KURDS..

OK that is number one..

They are not Turks..they dont call themselves TURKS..

It is their basic right to call themselves KURDS..That is the point you fail to undertand..

IT IS THEIR BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS..

Turk refers to ethnicity..so as Kurds..

They dont want to call themselves TURK..

There is an thnic group it is called KURDS..

WHY WOULD THEY?

I deleted your post - why do you have to resort to schoolboy level smut?  It´s not very intellectual is it? 

..........but don´t you agree much of that has changed in the recent years?Why don´t you give credit to the changes? It seems you are constantly harping on things of the past instead of recognizing improvements.

Creating a Kurdistan state, as I see it, it opens a new can of worms like another ethnic state in the Levant.....so how would one qualify as a citizen of Kurdistan? Would there be DNA tests...what about the other ethnicities in the area?

How about the Turkomen or the Zazas?Will we have another Palestine/Jewish issue in the area? Have you looked at the maps of Armenia and Kurdistan and maybe noticed they overlap....particularly in the areas of waterfront property and water resources?

Then there are the PKK attacks...the name mutates....the goal is the same...which to me looks like a destabilization tactic (which exactly who is behind I don´t know) of the area...(divide and rule...old game. I wonder how many Kurds actually support them?) What do response do you propose?

Wait, wait now you are mixing things

Being in an ethnic group called Kurd is fine, ok, as being in an ethinic group called greek, Arabs,..whatever

But the citizen of Türkiye called Turk

When a British obtain the Turkish citizenship he will be called Turk

So if they are citizen of Türkiye then they also will be called Turk.

How come you or they refused to be called Turk ?

They can be called Turk with Kurd ethnicity but they will be called Turk as Americans called Americans as Egyptians called Egyptians and so on.

 i didnt know you get turned on by toilet seats. did you tell this to your doctor?

Cynic, no one denies that your post was/ is both intellectual and informative.

People open politics forum to read about politics debate, so if anyone sidetracked just ignore him/her and keep it to original discussion, that is what people actually interested to read.

Personal attacks spoil that for everyone and let the thread lost its worthy too.

And what stick in people minds in the end is the information they read or the debates they follow.

So, can we keep the threads away from negatively personal exchange ?!

Handsom

I will not be surprised one day if you say that "Adam was a Kurd." lol

what am I mixing here 

please let me know..

we have discussed this topic several times..

Nobody can force me on this earth to call myself anything rather than Turkish..

Citizenship should be redifined in Turkey..(I think they are working on it)..

Word ´Turk´ is being used as ethicity in Turkey as well as citizenship..

That is wrong..That is why there is a new concept as Turkiyeli..

KURDS dont like it..

Because they are KURDS...They are not TURKS..

As simple as that..

Why would an Egyptian with UK citizenship should call herself/himself as English?

He/she is an Egyptian..

 Was he ?! lol

 Ok, thats close, you are a Turk living in UK and obtained the British citizenship.

So you are not British ?!

I classified his post a great example in english.

But nothing new as from ideas point of view

But the structure in English was impecciable.. 

what is this got to the with the topic?

 Ãts same !

You are citizen of UK now, and you are called British.

They are Kurds, and they are called Turk !

I never denied that there were not positive changes at all.

At least right now everybody has ackowledged the fact that we have a Kurdish Problem as opposed to just ´terrorism fueled by the foreign powers´

At least their language is not banned officially.

They even have a TV channel..

They all right steps..

But  not enough..

We have to come clean from our past and accept the mistakes we have made.

We spent the entire life of republic trying to make them believe that they are Turks..

Well they are 15 million and they are not buying it.

PKK is the result of our wrong treatment of Kurds..

Nobody should for look for a button in the UK and Germany which is pressed when they wish..

It is one of our paranoid theories invented by the politicans and the army to disguise they inability.

There is no button in the UK (I have looked for it for many years by myself )

Regarding PKK is being supported by Kurds or not..

Look at the pictures of stone throwing childeren for the answer..

You will see it better..

Femme and cystic will you please stop hurling pathetic insults at each other.

 yes, m´am. just a second im almost there

But british does not mean an ethnicity (english is btw) ..

You can not force anybody to himself/herself as english for example..it will be against the human rights..

But Turk is an ethnicity..

That is the difference..and That is the reason I am saying that ´citizenship´ in Turkey should be redifined.. 

ha ha

A lot! If you get an American citizenship, you are American....here in the US we would say Turkish-American...or whatever....like in African-American....Irish-American....German-American.....the key word is American....but as an American citizen you would NEVER say I´m Irish...or German...or African....

Yes you are quite right cynic - If it was good enough to delete last night then it´s good enough to delete tonight so I won´t disappoint you

And now goodnight - because its 1.30 a.m. here and I want to sleep

...and get back on topic please.

 good night LIR

i will miss you. mwaaaah!

 +1

well done, exactly my thought.

 but you are making it for hairy well done alamamaeda

Why don´t we just lock this thread period since the stinking fish has ruined it already?

Not much of a discussion taking place other than name calling.

british means an ethnicity and that ethnicity is britons. you suck theH.

thehandsom, i read your article. i wonder if you blame your great! leader Ataturk for this situation as much as you blame Bahceli?

  i will be too much unhappy. pls, dont lock the thread. i promise i will behave like you.

 this is a suicidal post, tami.

pls, dont make such mistakes for the sake of our great friendship.

Ok guys, calm down

Let´s have a freshly new start.

All posts here were deleted, and the other thread has been locked.

So let´s go on with the thread here pls .

are you sure on that? keep sucking your thumb  

 they all suck, hairy.

Of course he is, but he uses just a cover like all fethuallhcý mentality, actually thats their main problem. He curses sheria, but the ones who he quoted their articles here adore sharia, i know this because i lived among them, they say among people “Atatürk büyük bir liderdi” but when they are together by themselves,  they say “ Beton Kemal”  thats what i witnessed. So chiko i congratulate, you said this openly, actually i really hope this from you. But a sad news for you, you cant be a puppet leader or a subcontractor of imperialists, you can only be a pawn  

can`t handle even the basic facts? even a hichschool student would know what britain is and who Britons are.

here is your chance to enlighten your ignorant self;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britons_(historical)

tami tami..

It is a historical document..

British does not refer to ethnicity the way you know it in the uk..

Even the PM G Brown is trying to figure out what british is..

So sorry but keep sucking your thumb and make sure it down not get all wrinkly..

Well..where did you see any single word in my posts which praises fethullah? On the contrary, i have always thought that the guy is a sneak like person..

And me adoring sheria? show me one word in any of the posts from me..are you sure of that? (I have been accused of being many things but a sheria supporter is the first..My warmest conguratulations to you )

and you lived amongs us? and we did not notice you?

And also show me if you can where i said anything to belittle Ataturk..can you?

you are quite funny tonight..

what an intelligent post Janissary..

Turkey is proud of you... you elevated our turkishness once more.. well done

 handsom have you noticed that you use that term alot that i dont really know if its good or bad and you have never really define it ? lol

Well..you do not know it?

Our entire consitution is based on that term...

I am not sitting down and defining the turkishness here in the middle of the night..

But I will recommend you delete janissaries post with Turkish swearing word in it..

I know you will hate to delete any post apart from mine but you have to..OK?

thehandsom you are lacking of understanding as usual, what i said read carefully, the articles which you here usually post from Zaman and its puppets adore sharia, thats what i pointed out. Do you have reading? I didnt live among you, i lived among those fethullah supporters and witnessed their real face.  I dont care if you adore sharia or not. I just showed their mentality, and it seems to me you like it very much. Do you remember the honest girl which she said she dont like Atatürk in the program teketek? Her husband lost his job, these AKP puppets fired her husband. And you remember the “çakma liberal” girls there , nothing happened to them because they were sneaky, i just portray you like those çakma liberals and portray chiko as pawn.  I think nothing wrong with it , i dont need to show any post of you that belittle Atatürk actually your posts tell everything

 Yeah, the only ethnic word in the world is Turk

What a surprise..Canli is not deleting Janissary´s post..

Great moderation Canli..

I have read your post..

You are right...you were refering to fetullah supporters.. apologies..

But I am  still not sure on how my posts belittle Ataturk..

Ým sorry i havent seen your post, things became calm as i hope so i thought i can do other things than following that thread if i may, and also took me time to try to translate it.

So the result?

 Excuse me ?

Janissary´s post? I didn´t see one in this thread, or any posts by him lately. Did I miss something?

By the way great writing cynicmystic, describes many of the points, thanks, why dont you post this also on your coloumn?

yea yea, being Turk does not refer to ethnicity either and thats defined in the Turkish constitution. and the word british comes from the briton race as I proved.

ok theH, you`re getting funny, and I`m not interested in your crappy rhetoric which Ive proved wrong. have fun. you still suck.

Becasue I will perhaps get attacked; receive hate mail; be called a nationalist patriotic pig brainwashed in rhetoric and all else that comes with being logical. I just wrote it in handsom´s thread so that people could actually have something that is worthy of reading other than newspaper articles... But, thanks anyway man. I appreciate it.

I was asking if you deleted Janissary´s post or not..

It seems like you have..thank you..

I think I mentioned this issue in many many threads..

The word "Turk" refers to ethinicity..

Almost all rethorics the word Turk is being used refers to ethinicity..(we discussed these in another thread..it was about ´ne mutlu turkum diyene´ )

I can give you hundereds of examples for that..

Below is a paragraph from a kurdish politician :

"In the constitution it says that ‘everyone bound to the Turkish state through the bond of citizenship is a Turk’. According to official explanations, this sentence defines Turkish society and not an ethnic group. However, this is not true. The statements, practices and laws of the founders of Turkey show that this sentence refers to Turkish ethnicity. If this article is not changed, we cannot talk of a solution of the Kurdish issue."

Of course Turkey is their home..

They have been living in that area  of Anatolia before we Turks have arrived there..

And they have always called themselves Kurds..

They called themselves kurds during Ottomans.. Their area was refered as Kurdistan by the Sultans in official writings..

But then our nationalism came into action with the motto is "One race  one nation".

Then came the assimilation..Banning their language, changing the kurdish names, burning the villages, torturing kurds in diyarbakir jail etc..

Then  start talking about ´foreign powers´, UK & Germany etc..

Yeah yeah..

 ...or you will what Janis?? 

Modify the first two lines please - I know enough Turkish to know they are intended as insults.  This thread has returned to relative normality and it doesn´t need to descend into another slanging match.

 oh poor you, a victim dimi?

 i wouldnt delete. it represents him.

 True. It´s not the first time he shows his real face.

Angels of Thehansom or should I say harem

it s a spoken turkish, I know u dont wanna learn turkish but Im trying to teach you normal turkish. here is a this site is "Turkish language class" not kurdish language. 

if u want u can delete my post, coz I wont delete it.

I will make this site a perfect language site no politics, no insult, no döts

 Thank you - I will  

 what?

Behave! - and if anyone comes to continue serious discussion - all these totally irrelevant to the topic comments - including mine - will go!

This thread started off as a serious discussion and somehow lost the plot - we managed to steer it back on track but the last 20 or more posts have had nothing at all to do with the subject and were so far off topic they were heading off the planet. 

As people might wish to continue seriously discussing the topic I am deleting all the irrelevant posts.   If anyone feels they hard-done by at this decision - please fell free to pm me   

´Interesting´ places to visit in Amsterdam can be reposted in a new thread if you really insist.

 Spoil sport!

 This NOT a pm

Oh Tami Tami Tami Tami!

Now, you know how I love your posts, but you embarassed yourself here canim!

 is this ur request or Thehandsom´s???

is he little child, why doesnt he write?

why u all write and defend him when I post something about him?

Any PARTICULAR reason?

I want to be a Moderator, should I apply to Thehandsom or whom?

 To be honest it just sounds like a request to not go off topic

I don´t see any defence of the handsom here...

prove me wrong or keep quiet, AE.

 Oh hell...does this mean I have to go searching for some kind of "proof" now? Grrrrrrrrrrrr!

educate yourself AE!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britons_(historical)

Janis....this is not about you or thehandsom and has nothing to do with your post to him.  It is about serious discussions going totally offtopic - sorry if you don´t like my decision but get over it. (and again....PM means private message.)

 Ethnicity??!?!

ok AE, you don`t need to keep talking. I don`t expect you to admit you were wrong

 It is you who are wrong sweetie.  And I never saw you admit it either

When I am in google mood I will find your "proof" ok?

hahaha yea, I`m wrong because wikipedia is wrong. the only right source is aenigma although she can`t put forth any argument.

ha ha

Are you still there Tami?

I am telling you that you are wrong..A Brit is telling you that you are wrong..

What do you want more?

A message from the queen herself?

and a Turk is telling you, you are wrong about your ethnicity argument. what do you want more? a statement from the constitution? it`s there. go read.

Quote:

if there will be a kurdistan one day, u (kurdish ppl (you are kurdish u dont say this but you are Im sure) think like you) wont go to istanbul, ankara, izmir, antalya without TURKEY visa so other innocent ppl will f.ck you who dreamed this idea from abroad.

Turkey is proud of you Janissary..

You have showed how Turkish you are..

And I am sure Canli wont bother to delete this message either..

Once more

Turkey is proud of you..

Of course Canli wont bother to delete this post..

Well done Canli...

 I am struggling to understand your definition of Britains as an ethnic race   Maybe this is the problem.  Of course there were a small group of indigenous people, but even they were divided into two groups.  We have been invaded so many times we are of mixed face.  We have no defining physical characteristics.  What do you want to call us?  Anglo saxon?  Germanic? A bit of roman? 

Yours is not posting yours is swearing..

Primitive swearing..

But you are right..

They did not teach you what is primitive or not..

It is not your fault..

ahhahaa so you think the Turks in Turkey are ethnic Turkic people from the central asia? Most of the Turks in Turkey genetically have nothing to do with the Turkic race.

Great!  So Kurds are Turks too eh?

I proved several times here that the Turk refers to ethinicty when it is used from ´andimiz´ to many  daily usages.. 

I dont want to repeat everything here again..

Stop acting like a wrestler who asks for a rematch all the time after losing..

 but turks and turkish is ethnicity. or are they not?

...and the People´s Republic of China,  Mongolian People´s Republic....The Republic of India.....Ah......a Rose by any other name....

so....I´m curious H...what is your solution...? Should all the countries with names that also refer to ethnicity be renamed? Should the UN go through all the names of countries and come up with new, none ethnic names?  Should we go through the list of countries and come up with new ones?

Then, isn´t Kurdistan an ethnic name?

 Hey?  It is so much more complicate than you can imagine and even most British peole dont know how it is all put together.  Great Britain which is England, Scotland, Wales including some of the outlying island (not including Isle of Man or the Channel Islands). 

Then you have the UK of Great Britain and Northern Island which is made up of England, Scotland and Wales, outlying islands and Northern Island.

So ethinicty is not British, it is English, Welsh, Scottish or Irish and as Great Britain is a melting pot of hundreds of nationalities and ethnicities..................

Briton is just an historic term.  You should google Grea Britain and you will see the confusion ........

handsom, LÝR was taking care of that matter not me, so you may like to pm her about it.

Off ya off

I repeated this hundered times..

Dont you see that ´not taking any blames as Turks about what we have done to some part of our population and accusing sheepishly that it was all fault of UK and Germany or foreign powers´ are leading Turkey to a division?

Give them their bloody basic human rights and see if there will be any terrorism or not!!!

Dont you see that we have cornered those people..We tried to assimilate them (assimilation itself is a crime against humanity); We burnt their villages; We killed thousands of them unlawfully.. Check my threads about ergenekon case.. We took their thousands from their homes or streets and tortured them then killed them..

What are all those got to do with foreign powers?

Kurdistan as a word is not ethnicity but Kurd is.

Good to know that..Because I have serious  doubts about your impartiality as a mod..

Please H...don´t take me for a simplton...Kurdistan IS an ethnic definition...as..stan is a suffix ...you know, like Pakis STAN...Afghanis STAN....Uzbekis STAN....Boratis STAN

is Catalonia an ethnic definition? like ItalIA...RomanIA? if your answer is yes, have you ever searched about rights of Catalans in Spain?

When considering ethnicity, it is worth bearing in the mind definition, so considering this definition, when trying to decide if a particular group of people can be declared an ethinic group.

ethnicity (n) a term which represents social groups with a shared history, sense of identity, geography and cultural roots which may occur despite racial difference

Let´s consider Puerto Ricans as an example of an ethnicity. Many Puerto Ricans represent various blends of White, Red and/or Black races and yet they refer to themselves collectively as Boricuas

. Despite color difference, Puerto Ricans share an ethnicity. Ethnicity shapes a group´s culture - the food, language, music, and customs.

Source: about.com

 Why do you refer to her as Accident and Emergency?

Just another reminder about off-topic please....... several posts have already been deleted from this thread.

But turkey is not proud of you man.

We belive the unity of turkey, not like you,

you are a toy of big powers, like ur leaders (Apo, etc)

they wrote a scenario and u are playing it, and they say human rights, peace, kurdish, turkish, alevi, sunni.

It was played in other countries too, we know the game.

Ur kurdistan dream will never come true.

u do this intentionally, most of ur messagesare are in one way.

dont try to be different just be yourself, if you are kurdish tell us the truth,

dont play innocent here.

I swear you coz u deserve it,

this thoughts are not only mine, Turkish youth is aware of everything!!!

"Different classifications, both formal and informal, are used in the UK. Perhaps the most accepted is the National Statistics classification (identical to that used in the 2001 Census in England and Wales) which contains the following groups." (see wiki link below)

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnicity_(United_Kingdom)

Most official forms I have filled in seem to use these categories.  Often the word "heritage" is used to distinguish individuals or groups eg.  describing someone as "Asian Heritage"

The following article looked quite interesting too but the Anthropological perspective is only one of quite a number.  In other words the field of ethnicity is not quite as straight forward as it might first appear.

Ethnicity and Nationalism
Anthropological Perspectives

"Words like "ethnic groups", "ethnicity" and "ethnic conflict" have become quite common terms in the English language, and they keep cropping up in the press, in TV news, in political programmes and in casual conversations. The same can be said for "nation" and "nationalism", and many of us have to admit that the meaning of these terms frequently seems ambiguous and vague. "

http://folk.uio.no/geirthe/Ethnicity.html#Chapter1

 +1 and i deleted the new off topics ones, please let´s keep it to the topic.

I may sound like to some

But

when I say

We tried to assimilate them (assimilation itself is a crime against humanity);(I have given you the document/s)

We burnt their villages;(I have shown you the proof)

We killed thousands of them unlawfully..(I have given you the news articles or numbers to prove it)

We took their thousands from their homes or streets and tortured them then killed them.. (same as above)

If you still do not want to understand and if you still do not come here with showing us that ´the things I said  DID NOT HAPPEN´ , what do you want me to say?

If necessary, I will repeat them again..

btw..avalon?

Can thehandsom please clarify something for me?

I can´t find the post yet but I´m sure I read today that you said you didn´t believe a Kurdistan should be formed (sorry if I am wrong).

Please can you tell me what your thought behind the title of this thread is? Is it a belief for the future? A sarcastic remark? A taunt to your adversaries here?  What is it?

 I would be grateful too.But I think you expect too much from thehandsom,he is perfect at posting articles but not speaking his mind.What a pity!

 dont say "we". coz u are not we. I dont accept u from us. you are kurdish but u try to seem as turkish who suffer for kurdish. if u are not kurdish Im a SHIP OR TRAIN.

TURKEY NEVER BURNT A VILLAGE, WHAT A NONSENSE IDEA U HAVE, HOW DO U KNOW THIS, HOW COME A STATE BURNS ITS OWN VILLAGES??

TERRORIST DID BAD THINGS IN THIS AREAS TO MAKE PUBLIC AGAINST STATE, ARMY, AND TURKEY. TERRORISTS KILLED TEACHERS, DOCTORS, NURSES TO MAKE PPL AGAIST TURKEY. COZ AFTER ALL THESE, THEY SAID: LOOK GOVERMENT DOESNT CARE FOR YOU COZ WE ARE KURDISH. AND THEY MANAGED IT. 

DONT BE EMOTIONAL, ALL PPL HAVE SAME RIGHTS IN TURKEY, WE HAVE KURDISH FRIENDS, NEIGHBOURS. WE DONT HAVE ANY PROBLEMS WITH THEM.  U TRY TO SHOW IT DIFFERENT,

 there are many articles, writing by same sources, he has articles about armanieans also. he is serving to them. we have same newspapers, journals in turkey and we all know who they serve and who supports them. poor handsom, you will never feel like a turkish citizen. keep on posting... but stay away!

turkey is not ur home!!!! turkey is belog to ppl who believe the unity and u will always look from there to this great country. u will accept what armenians said, but we (the sons of this land) will  always stand against this powers, as a nation, no matter turkish or kurdish!!! coz we have same roots, we have same belief and same culture. when we are celebrating our common days u will keep posting that we re wrong and nationalist, u will always stand out of the door)))

Yes..

That is what I said about Kurdistan. I still do NOT think a full fledged country called Kurdistan in Northern Iraq is a good idea..

But however, if the situation arises or Iraq disintagrates and if a country called Kurdistan is formed in Norther Iraq, we have no alternative but accept it..

The title of the thread is taken directly from the news article..

But however, some words in Turkey are considered as taboo and the word Kurdistan is one of them.

The writer of the article explained it very clearly. In Turkey our rulers tried to assert that "Kurds don’t exist" and it was a huge historical  mistake and we have paid for that mistake and we are still paying for it..We almost wasted  70 years for trying to prove that argument..Since the beginning of our republic really.. 

There is an autonomous entity in Northern Iraq right now..

It is the reality!!!

And they call themselves ´Kurdistan´. Our rulers still trying to refer them as ´Northern Iraq´, not Kurdistan..Still try to ignore that reality of it..That is clearly another waste of time..

Why do we still trying to call them ´northern Iraqi´ or whatever?

This is a taboo  and this taboo needs to be broken and people should not be irritated when they hear the word as if somebody is hitting them with a stick. 

And sooner is better..

 Thanks for the reply

 Ãs there a country now called Kurdistan in North Ýraq ?!

You are in favor of taking Ýraqi´s lands to form another country then ?!!!

 you posted

The establishment of an Independent Unified Kurdistan, which will include southeastern Turkey. 

And you are surprised that people who care about unity of the country are irritated???Come off it,if somebody wanted a piece of my land I would also fly into rage easily.You stir such emotions so do not blame anyone for being nationalistic.

 there is a garden of USA there

a weapon against turkey and iran

they think they are independent)

Ha ha 

I think you are the one being emotional (and comical) here..

AND you are a SHIP OR a TRAIN.. Pick one..

You should have read the full article and those words in its context.

I think you should talk for yourself rather than referring to the rest of us with the "we did this & that" attitude. Using the third person plural does not make your points any more credible, or make you sound like a genuinely humanitarian Turk.

I, for example, did not do any of those things that you claim collectively as we did. I didn´t kill & torture anyone; didn´t burn any villages; didn´t commit any crimes against humanity; or assimiliate anyone. In fact, no one has actually asked me for my opinion, permission, authorization or participation in these matters. This also happens to be the case for probably 99% of that ´we´ you seem to be fond of. I am sure you are capable of comprehending the basic notion of difference between the actions of a government & the lack of involvement of the general public in the excution of certain governmental decisions. Did the average Joe on the street in Pig´s Knuckle, Arkansas authorize the invasion of Iraq? Did they hold a general referandum in Turkey to ask everyone what they think should be done?

It is not the articles or the arguments you provide that people disagree with. It is your attitude of generalization, and forcing everyone acknowledge your black-and-white perspective on the matter.

"- We, the Turks, did this & that; assimilated; killed; tortured; maimed; committed crimes; and suppressed. - I have provided the numbers and the evidence, so this is how it is... You cannot deny. You cannot disagree..." With this sort of logic, I don´t think you will get many people to agree with you.

Are you also suggesting that Kurds were killed only by Turks? If you have any knowledge about this topic, and I really do that you have for you seem to post about it a whole lot, then you would know very well that, during the incidences you are referring to, a lot of Kurds were also killed by other Kurds. Why do you omit this fact from your arguments. You have heard of the clash of the Kurdish aþiret lords with the PKK, have you not? Aside from being against the policies of the Republic of Turkey - not ´us Turks´ - the PKK was also a revolt against the age-old Kurdish aþiret system, which was resented by many young Kurds. That is precisely why every single Kurdish aþiret armed their men and sent them off to fight PKK in order to protect their interests. Armed Kurdish aþiret fighters fought side by side with the Turkish army soldiers against armed Kurdish PKK guerillas. How do you explain that?

Along the same lines, any time anyone mentions the involvement of foreign powers in escalating violence by providing arms and funds, you accuse them of being brainwashed and sounding like Turkish generals. Are you truly expecting anyone to disregard the fact that both Germany & the UK were involved in the affairs of Turkey by supporting PKK behind closed doors?

Nobody is saying the incidences from the articles that you love clip & post so much did not happen. They just didn´t happen the way you present them to have happened, nor did they happen for the reasons you say they happened.

u just laugh but cant answer somethings,

dont answer me with another article.

talk with ur own words!!!

 well said I admit but don´t you have an impression that thehandsom identifies himself with all the nation ???what an ego..sorry no personal attack,just a thought)

Well I am a Turk and I was trying OWN what our goverments or our army did..

If I say THE army, or THE rulers of Turkey it would not look nice because they are OUR goverment and OUR army..I do want to show that as a Turk,  I do know them and I do own them.

I completely agree with you on that..I did not commit any of those either.

And I have always opposed any of them.

I do not understand what you mean by that to be honest..

I am just telling what I think and believe and I think I am proving what I am saying as well with the articles, with the documents, with the court results, with the numbers etc..If you have different ideas about what I am saying please say so. And bring me the news articles, sources, documents to prove that..

Of course I have heard that PKK clashing with the asirets and lords..It is one of the reasons why they were very popular at earlier times..

Asiret fighters fighting with goverment forces can be easily explained with asiret system and the weapon /money given to them..I still believe it is a horrible system and a huge mistake..Those militias are guilty of many things.. 

I would love to see a concrete proof about UK & Germany´s involvement about PKK..

I do accept that intelligent services play some roles in politics up to certain extend (Turkey years after years supported General Dostum In Afghanistan or Chechens for example but so what?).

But even if it is true, there got to be certain conditions to persuade serious amount of population to take up arms.. Try to arm welsh people in the UK for example with money and all the power from an intelligent service. You can not.. 

Well..Thanks for above...That is what I wanted to hear actually..

We can talk about the reasons why those things happened seperately..

Well, if you are looking for concrete evidence in the form of concrete buildings or stone statues, then I guess I cannot privide any. If you google PKK, and its funders, many articles come up about the topic. Addiotionally, almost any book that deals with the issue of PKK, will touch on the same aspect of foreign involvement in its funding and arms dealing.

Here is something I copy/pasted from this site : http://www.turkeylive.net/pm-erdogan-to-submit-detailed-pkk-report-to-bush/pm-erdogan-to-submit-detailed-pkk-report-to-bush.html

I am not suggesting that this article on its own is the concrete proof that you are looking for. It is just really naive of you to assume that PKK is not and has not been funded, supported and manipulated by foreign services. Of course, showing serial numbers of the weaponary doesn´t implicate, but it surely hints, if you know what I mean. Somehow the money is there and someone is selling the weapons. Taking into consideration that a very significant portion of both Germany´s & the UK´s national revenues are derived from arms sales & defence related technologies, in addition to their vested interests in the region, it is only expected that they are behind the scenes with the others.

Turkey has launched its most comprehensive and diplomatic crackdown to date on the outlawed Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK), which has cost Turkey about 33,000 lives and $100 bln over the course of 21 years.

At a meeting of its influential National Security Council (MGK) held last Wednesday following the killing of 47 soldiers and civilians during the last month, Turkey put the recent status of the PKK on the table. Seeking to develop means for international cooperation against the PKK, Turkey has launched a diplomatic attack against the PKK. Prime Minister Tayyip Erdo?an had talks with British Prime Minister Gordon Brown and Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, and he will take a detailed report on the PKK’s activities to a meeting with US President George W. Bush scheduled for Nov. 5.

The report, prepared by Turkish intelligence units, notes that recently there has been an increase in PKK violence as the terrorist organization previously would kill 60 to 90 security officers over a few years, but it has killed 147 people in the first 10 months of 2007.

The report also argues that the PKK uses northern Iraq as a weapons and ammunition depot and that a significant part of its weaponry is US-made, listing in detail the PKK presence in locations in the region. According to the report, the PKK is using caves in the Kandil Mountains as its arsenals and logistics centers, and it has seven arsenals in Hakurk, Bekur, Misalog, Zaro, Cemalurti , Armus-Ciya and Minazerdi; it has also spent $15 million in procuring weapons and ammunitions in the last year and possesses heavy weaponry. The report was drafted by the Turkish General Staff using information collected by Turkish intelligence units and contains evidence for how the PKK secures funds using associations established in Germany, Austria, Spain, Belgium, Greece, the US, Finland, Denmark, Romania, Russia, Ireland, Sweden, Norway, Italy and the UK.

The PKK uses these funds to procure weapons and manages about $300 million yearly, according the report, which also contains evidence of the PKK’s drug and arms smuggling, using Scandinavian countries as its base for drug trafficking.

Critical of the European countries’ lack of sincerity in the fight against the PKK, the report elaborates on these countries’ perspectives on the PKK and the terrorist organization’s presence in them. According to the report, despite the fact that they recognize the PKK as a terrorist organization, none of these countries delivered PKK militants or leaders to Turkey, and Germany, France, Netherlands and Belgium are listed as the countries where the PKK’s financing activities are concentrated.

The section on weapon procurement sources for the PKK seems to weigh heavily on Turkish-US relations. President Bush had already admitted that some weapons lost by the US Army were acquired by the PKK, and he is expected to provide some explanation for it in his meeting with Erdo?an. According to the report, the PKK has affiliated organization in the US such as the American Kurdish Information Network (AKIN), the Washington Kurdish Institute (WKI) and the Kurdish National Congress of North America (KNC).

The report also contains detailed information about the origins of 36,563 weapons captured by Turkish security officers from the PKK, giving their serial numbers, places of production and countries of origin as follows:

* The countries of origin for 4,500 of 11,297 Kalashnikov rifles could be fully identified using the data on them. Accordingly, the breakdown of their countries of origin is as follows: Russia and Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS) (71.6 percent), the People’s Republic of China (14.7 percent), Hungary (3.6 percent), and Bulgaria (3.6 percent).

* Of 5,713 Kannas, BKC, Dragunov, Arbiki, G-3, M-16, G-1, Mavzer and weapons of other make, 959 were found to come from Russia and CIS (45.2 percent), the UK (13.2 percent) and the US (9.4 percent).

* Of 1,610 rocket launchers of various makes, 313 were identified to be Russian-made (85.3 percent), Iraqi-made (5.4 percent) and China-made (2.5 percent).

* Of 2,885 pistols of various makes, 2,208 were found to come from former Czechoslovakia (21.9 percent), Spain (20.2 percent) and Italy (19.8 percent).

* Since some of 11,568 land mines were destroyed on the spot, the countries of origin of only 8,015 land mines could be determined. The majority of them were Italian-made (60.6 percent) while 28.3 percent were Russian-made and 6.2 percent German-made.

* Of 3,490 hand grenades of various makes, 136 were found to come from Russia (72 percent), the US (19.8 percent) and Germany (8 percent).

* The A-4 and C-4 explosives used in terrorist attacks in cities were found to be Portuguese-made.

Barzani-PKK connection
The report gives a detailed account of the relations between Massoud Barzani, leader of the Kurdistan Democratic Party (KDP), and the assistance and support he provides to the PKK terrorists in northern Iraq. According to the report, 30 PKK militants obtained loans ranging between $5,000 and $10,000 to set up businesses in northern Iraq, and these businesses were used to provide foodstuff and other materials to the PKK camps in northern Iraq. The PKK’s businessmen, who are also Iraqi citizens registered at the Iraqi Chamber of Commerce, are actively operating in the foodstuff and transportation sectors. The loans provided by the KDP were used to open up 12 businesses in Sulaimaniya, 11 in Arbil, seven in Salahaddin and two in Baghdad. Some PKK militants have reportedly joined the peshmergas, and they were generally employed in regions close to the Turkish-Iraqi border. The report also mentions that some PKK militants who were trained in the camps in northern Iraq were settled in the villages of Rezge, Karna, Posht Ashan and Sheikh Ayesh.

Another fact about this matter that you somewhat seem to ignore is that the PKK has always been identified not by Kurdish nationalism, but by Marxism. Abdullah Ocalan, the founder, was half Turkish. I thought I would remind you that just as he reminded the Turkish commandos in Kenya, when he was captured. Early leaders or influential players of the PKK movement had ethnic Turks as well as Kurds. The PKK considered itself as the means to a social movement. Their publications testify to this as well.

The deaths that you keep referring to in the thousands etc were mainly insurgents, soldiers, civilians and anti-PKK village guards, who happened to be Kurdish themselves by the way, not to mention the Kurds that were murdered in Europe, Lebanon & Syria for disagreeing with Ocalan´s approach.

Don´t you find it ironic and a bit suspicious that more Kurds have actually been killed by PKK than Turks? Didn´t PKK collaborate with Saddam, and engage in suppressing the local Kurdish clans in Iraq?

Do we have a selective memory here, when it comes to acknowledging all the relevant factors rather than just those that serve the title of your post?

I know you are living in the UK at the moment but is this a permanent arrangement?  Do you have UK citizenship I wonder?  If you are a UK citizen then I would say your right to say OUR is relinquished in favour of THE.  Or perhaps the fact that you use OUR is answering my question.  I would be interested anyway. Thanks in advance.

I dont know what you mean with selective memory..

I dont remember saying that pkk was not marxist anywhere in this forum..

Pkk was born as a marxist organization end of 1970s. But so what?

I always agreed with their killings as well..

But when it comes to who killed how many and how many of them were civilian by which side, we would differ.

I remember giving the numbers in my earlier posts (I think it was the time when I was arguing with Vineyards).

I dont want to repeat them again.

Well I am not sure if I take this post seriously or not.

So far, I have not seen any concrete evidence for western countries supporting of PKK and you have not provided any either..

if you check the weaponary of any terrorist organisation or any armed groups , you will find the same kind list..

I am sure AlQaide, hamas, hezbullah, chechens etc. are using similar kind of weapons..

Any organisation that has money can buy those things in the market I assume..

Regarding your statement  about "pkk financing activities concantrated in EU countries" is correct..And also there might be drug related money in it too..

But that does not mean ´PKK is financed by EU countries´.

maybe you dont see these articles but this is one of the evidence,

Sunday telegraph writes that CIA supports Pejak which is one group of PKK. but it s clear that they support PKK too. Turkish journalist, Can Dündar, published a photo of meeting a CIA agent with PKK terrorists on 23 january 2003.

http://www.candundar.com.tr/_media/1235.jpg

Amerika PKK’yý besliyor

Ýngiltere´nin ciddi gazetelerinden Sunday Telegraph, Amerikan Merkezi Haber Alma Teþkilatý´nýn (CIA) Ýran´Ã½ vurmak için PKK´nýn Ýran kolu PEJAK´a destek verdiðini yazdý. ClA´nýn hedefi terör örgütünü kullanýp Ýran´Ã½ istikrarsýzlaþtýrmak

ÝRAN´I TEHDÝT ETMÝÞTÝ           
Amerika 2003 yýlýnda Irak´Ã½ iþgal ettikten sonra Ortadoðu´da sýranýn Suriye ve Ýran´da olduðunu açýkça ilan etmiþti. Nükleer enerji çalýþmalar mý hýzlandýran Ýran bir taraftan da "Hayal bile edilemeyecek nükleer silahlar ürettik" diyerek Amerika´ya meydan okumuþtu. Amerika-Iran arasýndaki restleþme sürerken Ýngiltere´nin saygýn gazetelerinden Sunday Telegraph Amerikan Merkezi Haber Alma Teþkilatý´nýn (CIA) Ýran´Ã½ istikrarsýzlaþtýrmak ve yönetimi zayýflatmak için terör örgütlerini Ýran´a karþý desteklediðini yazdý.

PKK’YA PARA YARDIMI
ClA´nýn Ýran´a karþý mali destek saðladýðý terör örgütleri arasýnda Kuzey Irak´Ã½n Iran sýnýrýna yakýn bölümünde yuvalanan PKK´nýn Iran kolu olan PEJAK´Ã½n da bulunduðu iddia edildi. Gazeteye konuþan emekli bir CIA yöneticisi bu örgütlere doðrudan ClA´nýn gizli bütçesinden para aktarýldýðýný anlattý. Gazete Amerikalý eski bir terörle mücadele ajanýnýn yorumunu da aktardý: "Ýran´da son zamanlarda güvenlik güçlerine yönelik saldýrýlarýn artmasý bu desteðin bir kanýtý. Saldýrýlarýn büyük bölümünde Kürt teröristler görev alýyor."

SADECE ÝRAN’A KARÞI MI?
Ödüllü Amerikalý gazeteci Seymour Hersh, geçen kasým ayýnda Amerikan hükümetinin Ýran üzerinde baský kurabilmek için terör örgütü PKK´nýn bir kolu olan PEJAK´a eðitim ve malzeme saðladýðýný yazmýstý. Amerikan ajanlarýnýn Kuzey Irak´ta Kandil Daðý´nda yuvalanan PKK´lý teröristlerle defalarca görüþtüðü haberleri çýkmýþ ancak Amerika bu haberleri yalanlamýþtý. Gazeteci Can Dündar 23 Ocak 2003´te bir Amerikalý ajanýn terör örgütü PKK´nýn yöneticileriyle Kuzey Irak´taki bir bölgede buluþmasýnýn fotoðrafýný yayýmlamýþtý.
Bu fotoðraf 23 Ocak 2003´te Milliyet´te yayýmlandý. Amerika´nýn terör örgütleriyle gizli pazarlýklarýný yürüten bir askeri yetkilisi, Ali Haydar Kaytan, yanýnda Dursun Ali, Halil Ataç, arabulucu Davut Baðýstani ve Nizamettin Taþ ile yer sofrasýnda oturmuþ yemek yiyip sohbet ediyorlar. Ama Amerika bunu yalanlýyor.

http://img0.bloggum.com/upload/lib/img/4396/500/r_6zqrvym2bqy5x8lttmpz.jpg

 Hmmm .. . I don´t understand why you haven´t answered my question.  You had the time early this morning to answer more complicated issues but not mine?

I will assume silence is a refusal to answer.  No matter.

 I don´t think he will answer that question...

It is not the government officials directly funding or supporting. It is the secret service and the intelligence. I hope I don´t need to explain how the intelligence services do not always follow the official stance of their respective governments. It is always the case that the governemtn takes one stance, and the secret services operate under differing intentions.

Was the CIA´s acts of supporting, training, funding and arming dictatorships, or escalating violence in different parts of the world through state-sponsored terrorism in accord with the official views of the US government pertaining to such issues?

You won´t find any ´concrete´ evidence simply because the operations of intelligence services do not involve construction in concrete. They are neither masons nor are they constructors. They are operatives who operate under secrecy and silence. They aim not not leave any evidence so that there is not a political scandal. Every once in a while, they mess up, and that is when you get your daily dose of Watergate sandals or the Abu Gharib torture pics...

It is known the Turkish MIT is under the affect of CIA or used by CIA, this is not new, it has been happening since Turkey entered NATO. This also includes some parts of army, thats because today they are trying to refine or trying to defame some generals who openly declare that they are against the NATO. 

as far as i remember he confessed his harem had blown up, perhaps he established new harem then...

 No, simply because they want to say they are Kurds

I dont understand why you only request this from CANLI, TC has six moderators following this section like libralady, Sui, lady in Red.  Was only CANLI online at that time? Did you send pm’s to the other moderators? Apparently, there has been a continuing injustice campaign against CANLI directed by gang members ,  i think she tries her best as a moderator...

I thought he is only interested in politics, not harem.  coz he is an european, modern, intelligent, pkk sympatizer harem is old fashioned and outworn.

maybe, that s why he invented internet harem

 I dont understand how did he manage to direct all moderators.

all of the moderators do what he wants...

someone explain please...

Actually this Kurdish politician should first learn to interpret law and nationalism of Turkey, it says the ones who are bounded the Turkish state with citizenship, is Turk. This has nothing to do with ethnicity. For example a Brasilian who has eligible to get Turkish citizenship and want to be a Turkish citizen, after then he also called Turk officially by Turkish state. What do you expect from Türkiye to call him? Brasilian? Isnt this divisiveness between Turkey’s citizens?

 Ohh i forgot this , no need to thanks mate, actually i appreciate your effort, yes that name callings are high possibility, but you should accommodate with this name calling, i did

That is the problem actually..

Turkey has spent all those years trying to prove that it is "one race, one nation".

It is fine as long  you can make people believe in what you are saying.

But as you can see, people dont believe in that..

I mean you could not persuade some of citizens to believe "Turk as a word refers to citizenship only but not the race"

 I think you could say that of most countries actually...

 you dont know anything about how to be a citizen or member of a country. it s neither only race nor religion. It s the combination of different common points.

 Hell....try applying that to the UK and it would fail miserably! 

 can u tell me, is it possible to be a citizen of UK, if you cant speak english?

if you dont have any common point with most of a country, or if u dont have any feeling about the culture, you cant be a citizen of this country, u can be just a guest there.